FCC took 11 meters from Hams and gave it to CB'ers.

[Slow Code]

When CW is gone, CB'ers will get the other bands too.


SC

[David G. Nagel]

Slow Code wrote:
> When CW is gone, CB'ers will get the other bands too.
>
>
> SC


Actually what the FCC did was to take the 11 meter band and create the
General Radio Service Class C and Class D.
Class C was limited to only a few channels (6) limited to control and
paging. Class D was farmed out as 23 channels with only AM modulation
and a max. of 5 watts power input to the finals. This was later
modified to 40 channels and 4 watts input.
The classic CB'er came just prior to the increase to 40 channels.

Dave N
KBH1602 (very expired)

[X-rated Vermonter]

On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 00:34:08 GMT, Slow Code > wrote:

>
>When CW is gone, CB'ers will get the other bands too.
>
>
>SC
++++++++
I fail to see the connection between Country and Western music bands
and amateur radio. And what makes you think that Country and Western
is endangered in the first place?

[kcdillon@rochester.rr.com]

X-rated wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 00:34:08 GMT, Slow Code > wrote:
>
> >
> >When CW is gone, CB'ers will get the other bands too.
> >
> >
> >SC
> ++++++++
> I fail to see the connection between Country and Western music bands
> and amateur radio. And what makes you think that Country and Western
> is endangered in the first place?

[kcdillon@rochester.rr.com]

X-rated wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 00:34:08 GMT, Slow Code > wrote:
>
> >
> >When CW is gone, CB'ers will get the other bands too.
> >
> >
> >SC
> ++++++++
> I fail to see the connection between Country and Western music bands
> and amateur radio. And what makes you think that Country and Western
> Wikipedia

Directory > Reference > Wikipedia continuous wave
A continuous wave or continuous waveform (CW) is an electromagnetic
wave of constant amplitude and frequency; and in mathematical analysis,
of infinite duration. Continuous wave is also the name given to an
early method of radio transmission, in which a carrier wave is switched
on and off. Information is carried in the rhythm and spacing with which
the signal is sent. CW is thus is a form of on-off keying (OOK). In
radio transmission, CW waves are also known as "undamped waves", to
distinguish this method from damped wave transmission
is endangered in the first place?

[gwatts]

X-rated Vermonter wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 00:34:08 GMT, Slow Code > wrote:
>
>
>>When CW is gone, CB'ers will get the other bands too.
>>
>>
>>SC
>
> ++++++++
> I fail to see the connection between Country and Western music bands
> and amateur radio. And what makes you think that Country and Western
> is endangered in the first place?

Country seems to be doing fine, Western might be sparse on the ground
but that's the nature of that beast.

[Cecil Moore]

wrote:
> Directory > Reference > Wikipedia continuous wave
> A continuous wave or continuous waveform (CW) is an electromagnetic
> wave of constant amplitude and frequency; and in mathematical analysis,
> of infinite duration.

Thus, a continuous wave is incapable of conveying
any information.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

[Harry Gross]

Cecil Moore wrote:
> wrote:
>> Directory > Reference > Wikipedia continuous wave
>> A continuous wave or continuous waveform (CW) is an electromagnetic
>> wave of constant amplitude and frequency; and in mathematical analysis,
>> of infinite duration.
>
> Thus, a continuous wave is incapable of conveying
> any information.

Um, not quite:-) The very presence of the CW signal conveys SOME
information (e.q. the fact that something is out there generating it:-)

It's the turning on and off of the wave that conveys most of the USEFUL
information:-) Which makes CW communication a DIGITAL mode, by the way.

Harry

[Cecil Moore]

Harry Gross wrote:
>
> Cecil Moore wrote:
>> Thus, a continuous wave is incapable of conveying
>> any information.
>
> Um, not quite:-) The very presence of the CW signal conveys SOME
> information (e.q. the fact that something is out there generating it:-)

"Information - an indication of the number of possible
choices of messages, expressible as the value of some
monotonic function of the number of choices."
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

[JD]

Is this a Chat Room?
"Slow Code" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> When CW is gone, CB'ers will get the other bands too.
>
>
> SC

[larya]

I think you will find that cw is making a comeback. Now that the cw
requirement has been serverly reduced, more hams are getting into cw
and it should be starting to make a comback....

Second... I also think you will find that the fcc, and in my country
the IC, are deeply regretting the conversion of 11 meters to 'cb'.
Virtually all of our bad radio operating procedures, of all radio
services, can all be traced back to the bad operating technique found
in the 11 meter cb band....

Larry ve3fxq


Slow Code wrote:
> When CW is gone, CB'ers will get the other bands too.
>
>
> SC

[jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com]

In rec.radio.amateur.antenna Cecil Moore > wrote:
> Harry Gross wrote:
> >
> > Cecil Moore wrote:
> >> Thus, a continuous wave is incapable of conveying
> >> any information.
> >
> > Um, not quite:-) The very presence of the CW signal conveys SOME
> > information (e.q. the fact that something is out there generating it:-)

> "Information - an indication of the number of possible
> choices of messages, expressible as the value of some
> monotonic function of the number of choices."
> --
> 73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

How about a DF to give the bearing to the transmitter?

See straws, grasping.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[David Thompson]

That was 50 years ago! If you listened to the ARRL SS last weekend you
know CW is not dead. Look at Dx Summit spots...CW is by far the majority!
And I am mostly SSB!

Dave K4JRB

[David Thompson]

Stop posting on multiple newsgroups. Don't you have anything else to do
Dave K4JRB

"Slow Code" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> When CW is gone, CB'ers will get the other bands too.
>
>
> SC

[Dave]

wrote:

> In rec.radio.amateur.antenna Cecil Moore > wrote:
>
>>Harry Gross wrote:
>>
>>>Cecil Moore wrote:
>>>
>>>>Thus, a continuous wave is incapable of conveying
>>>>any information.
>>>
>>>Um, not quite:-) The very presence of the CW signal conveys SOME
>>>information (e.q. the fact that something is out there generating it:-)
>
>
>>"Information - an indication of the number of possible
>>choices of messages, expressible as the value of some
>>monotonic function of the number of choices."
>>--
>>73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com
>
>
> How about a DF to give the bearing to the transmitter?
>
> See straws, grasping.
>

How about a carrier that confirms ALL OK.

Absence of carrier = Problem exists.

[JD]

This is worse that a chat room, lotsalaughs
"JD" > wrote in message
. ..
> Is this a Chat Room?
> "Slow Code" > wrote in message
> k.net...
>>
>> When CW is gone, CB'ers will get the other bands too.
>>
>>
>> SC
>

[N2EY@AOL.COM]

David G. Nagel wrote:
> Slow Code wrote:
> > When CW is gone, CB'ers will get the other bands too.

> > SC

> Actually what the FCC did was to take the 11 meter band and create the
> General Radio Service Class C and Class D.
> Class C was limited to only a few channels (6) limited to control and
> paging. Class D was farmed out as 23 channels with only AM modulation
> and a max. of 5 watts power input to the finals. This was later
> modified to 40 channels and 4 watts input.

Wasn't it 4 watts output?

> The classic CB'er came just prior to the increase to 40 channels.
>
> Dave N
> KBH1602 (very expired)

Some more facts:

11 meters was never a ham band by international treaty. FCC allowed
hams to use it on a shared basis with Industrial, Scientific and
Medical users after WW2. This was done in part as a sort of
compensation for hams' loss of 160 meters to LORAN after WW2.

The Citizens' Radio Service was created by FCC in the late 1940s. The
original Class A and Class B services were on UHF - right where FRS
and GMRS are now.

The problem was that, in those days, the UHF radios that performed well
were big, heavy, expensive, power hungry and complex. Simple UHF sets
that were small, light, inexpensive and simple didn't perform too well.


The Citizen's Radio service had so few takers at the end of 10 years
that FCC created Class C and Class D, at 27 MHz. Low power channelized
sets for 27 MHz could be made small and inexpensive even with the
technology of the late 1950s.

FCC could take the band away from hams because it wasn't a ham band by
treaty anyway. They also argued that the creation of the 15 meter ham
band in 1954, and the gradual return of 160 to hams, meant that 11
meters wasn't critical to ham radio.

Add to that the fact that 11 meters wasn't the most-popular ham band
anyway. Many popular rigs of the time didn't even cover the band. It
wasn't harmonically related to the other HF/MF ham bands of the era,
and in many areas it was full of noise from ISM users like diathermy
machines, vacuum formers, etc. Since many other countries didn't
allocate 11 meters to hams, there wasn't as much DX to work on 11. And
the 1.7 MHz wide 10 meter band was right next door.

Of course hams didn't like losing the band, fearing that it was a
harbinger of things to come, but it wasn't. Over the intervening years,
we hams got all of 160 back, and three new HF bands at 30, 17 and 12
meters. The cb boom of the '70s came and went, and hams are still here.

73 de Jim, N2EY

[Cecil Moore]

Dave wrote:
> How about a carrier that confirms ALL OK.
> Absence of carrier = Problem exists.

Absence of carrier is the opposite of
continuous wave. :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

[Slow Code]

Cecil Moore > wrote in
t:

> Dave wrote:
>> How about a carrier that confirms ALL OK.
>> Absence of carrier = Problem exists.
>
> Absence of carrier is the opposite of
> continuous wave. :-)


And switching between the two with various patterns can convey a message.

Those with a brain and who aren't lazy can receive it, those that can't
should stay on CB.

SC

[cmdr buzz corey]

X-rated wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 00:34:08 GMT, Slow Code > wrote:
>
> >
> >When CW is gone, CB'ers will get the other bands too.
> >
> >
> >SC
> ++++++++
> I fail to see the connection between Country and Western music bands
> and amateur radio. And what makes you think that Country and Western
> is endangered in the first place?

Actually today it is Country and Restroom.

[Dave]

wrote:

SNIPPED

> Some more facts:
>
> 11 meters was never a ham band by international treaty. FCC allowed
> hams to use it on a shared basis with Industrial, Scientific and
> Medical users after WW2. This was done in part as a sort of
> compensation for hams' loss of 160 meters to LORAN after WW2.
>
> The Citizens' Radio Service was created by FCC in the late 1940s. The
> original Class A and Class B services were on UHF - right where FRS
> and GMRS are now.
>
> The problem was that, in those days, the UHF radios that performed well
> were big, heavy, expensive, power hungry and complex. Simple UHF sets
> that were small, light, inexpensive and simple didn't perform too well.
>
>
> The Citizen's Radio service had so few takers at the end of 10 years
> that FCC created Class C and Class D, at 27 MHz. Low power channelized
> sets for 27 MHz could be made small and inexpensive even with the
> technology of the late 1950s.
>
> FCC could take the band away from hams because it wasn't a ham band by
> treaty anyway. They also argued that the creation of the 15 meter ham
> band in 1954, and the gradual return of 160 to hams, meant that 11
> meters wasn't critical to ham radio.
>
> Add to that the fact that 11 meters wasn't the most-popular ham band
> anyway. Many popular rigs of the time didn't even cover the band. It
> wasn't harmonically related to the other HF/MF ham bands of the era,
> and in many areas it was full of noise from ISM users like diathermy
> machines, vacuum formers, etc. Since many other countries didn't
> allocate 11 meters to hams, there wasn't as much DX to work on 11. And
> the 1.7 MHz wide 10 meter band was right next door.
>
> Of course hams didn't like losing the band, fearing that it was a
> harbinger of things to come, but it wasn't. Over the intervening years,
> we hams got all of 160 back, and three new HF bands at 30, 17 and 12
> meters. The cb boom of the '70s came and went, and hams are still here.
>
> 73 de Jim, N2EY
>

As a former user of 11 meters, the Ham Band, this summary pretty much reflects
my memory of events. BTW, my old Multi-Elmac AH-54 [if I recall] had 11 meters
factory installed. It drifted "slighlty" during each transmission. Slightly
meaning 50 +/- KHz. I had to use crystal control to stay reasonably close to any
frequency!

[Joel Kolstad]

"larya" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Second... I also think you will find that the fcc, and in my country
> the IC, are deeply regretting the conversion of 11 meters to 'cb'.

I hope not. The FCC providing unlicensed spectrum for the masses was one of
the smartest thing they ever did! Yes, it leads to all sorts of horrible
operating practices, but CB and -- more contemporarily -- FRS/GMRS and WiFi
had provided *huge* benefits for people (and many millions of dollars in
equipment sales) nationwide. I'd hate to live in a country where there's no
such thing as a license-free $20 pair of FRS-type walkie talkies or $20 WiFi
cards for high-speed Internet access.

> Virtually all of our bad radio operating procedures, of all radio
> services, can all be traced back to the bad operating technique found
> in the 11 meter cb band....

I'd say they can be traced back to human nature. People were rowdy and
"uncouth" in, say, taverns for thousands of years before CB came along.

---Joel

[Dave]

Joel Kolstad wrote:

SNIPPED
>
> I'd say they can be traced back to human nature. People were rowdy and
> "uncouth" in, say, taverns for thousands of years before CB came along.
>
> ---Joel
>
>

I'll agree with the uncouth in the taverns part, but, disagree with the context.

CB brought the uncouth out of the tavern and onto the air.

:-)

[Joel Kolstad]

"Dave" > wrote in message
...
> CB brought the uncouth out of the tavern and onto the air.

Drive by the tavern... tune past the CBers? ;-)

I suppose amateur radio is supposed to be more a high-class dining
establishment than a dinner -- suit, tie, and official FCC-approved membership
required --, although these days you wouldn't necessarily know it from
listening to the airwaves.

[John Smith]

Joel Kolstad wrote:
> "Dave" > wrote in message
> ...
>> CB brought the uncouth out of the tavern and onto the air.
>
> Drive by the tavern... tune past the CBers? ;-)
>
> I suppose amateur radio is supposed to be more a high-class dining
> establishment than a dinner -- suit, tie, and official FCC-approved membership
> required --, although these days you wouldn't necessarily know it from
> listening to the airwaves.
>
>
>
>

Hmmm:

You mean you can quickly tell the difference from some self-important,
self-worshiping, self-impressed, carried-away-with-oneself personality
as opposed to one considering himself/herself to being a
student-of-the-world? And, your final implication being, "This group of
amateurs is full of the former?"

You present a most interesting observation! <in-a-contemplative-state>

JS

[N2EY@AOL.COM]

Joel Kolstad wrote:
> "Dave" > wrote in message
> ...
> > CB brought the uncouth out of the tavern and onto the air.
>
> Drive by the tavern... tune past the CBers? ;-)
>
> I suppose amateur radio is supposed to be more a high-class dining
> establishment than a dinner -- suit, tie, and official FCC-approved membership
> required --, although these days you wouldn't necessarily know it from
> listening to the airwaves.

I think it depends where you listen...

This past weekend, I was active in the November CW Sweepstakes. Made
over 400 QSOs in 74 sections (all states except Hawaii). Lots of
activity but nothing objectionable at all.

73 de Jim, N2EY

[N2EY@AOL.COM]

Dave wrote:
> wrote:
>
> SNIPPED
>
> > Some more facts:
> >
> > 11 meters was never a ham band by international treaty. FCC allowed
> > hams to use it on a shared basis with Industrial, Scientific and
> > Medical users after WW2. This was done in part as a sort of
> > compensation for hams' loss of 160 meters to LORAN after WW2.
> >
> > The Citizens' Radio Service was created by FCC in the late 1940s. The
> > original Class A and Class B services were on UHF - right where FRS
> > and GMRS are now.
> >
> > The problem was that, in those days, the UHF radios that performed well
> > were big, heavy, expensive, power hungry and complex. Simple UHF sets
> > that were small, light, inexpensive and simple didn't perform too well.
> >
> >
> > The Citizen's Radio service had so few takers at the end of 10 years
> > that FCC created Class C and Class D, at 27 MHz. Low power channelized
> > sets for 27 MHz could be made small and inexpensive even with the
> > technology of the late 1950s.
> >
> > FCC could take the band away from hams because it wasn't a ham band by
> > treaty anyway. They also argued that the creation of the 15 meter ham
> > band in 1954, and the gradual return of 160 to hams, meant that 11
> > meters wasn't critical to ham radio.
> >
> > Add to that the fact that 11 meters wasn't the most-popular ham band
> > anyway. Many popular rigs of the time didn't even cover the band. It
> > wasn't harmonically related to the other HF/MF ham bands of the era,
> > and in many areas it was full of noise from ISM users like diathermy
> > machines, vacuum formers, etc. Since many other countries didn't
> > allocate 11 meters to hams, there wasn't as much DX to work on 11. And
> > the 1.7 MHz wide 10 meter band was right next door.
> >
> > Of course hams didn't like losing the band, fearing that it was a
> > harbinger of things to come, but it wasn't. Over the intervening years,
> > we hams got all of 160 back, and three new HF bands at 30, 17 and 12
> > meters. The cb boom of the '70s came and went, and hams are still here.
> >
> > 73 de Jim, N2EY

> As a former user of 11 meters, the Ham Band, this summary pretty much reflects
> my memory of events.

Thanks!

> BTW, my old Multi-Elmac AH-54 [if I recall] had 11 meters
> factory installed. It drifted "slighlty" during each transmission. Slightly
> meaning 50 +/- KHz. I had to use crystal control to stay reasonably close to any
> frequency!

I think one reason for the relative unpopularity of 11 meters with hams
was that the band was not harmonically related to other bands, meaning
crystals bought for 11 were probably not useful on any other ham band.

73 de Jim, N2EY

[Slow Code]

wrote in
ps.com:

> The cb boom of the '70s came and went, and hams are still here.
>
> 73 de Jim, N2EY


Hams are still here right up until code is eliminated.

SC

[Slow Code]

"Joel Kolstad" > wrote in
:

> "Dave" > wrote in message
> ...
>> CB brought the uncouth out of the tavern and onto the air.
>
> Drive by the tavern... tune past the CBers? ;-)
>
> I suppose amateur radio is supposed to be more a high-class dining
> establishment than a dinner -- suit, tie, and official FCC-approved
> membership required --,


Too many amateurs now don't care if ham radio turns into the local
scarf & barf.

[ken scharf]

Joel Kolstad wrote:
> "larya" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> Second... I also think you will find that the fcc, and in my country
>> the IC, are deeply regretting the conversion of 11 meters to 'cb'.
>
> I hope not. The FCC providing unlicensed spectrum for the masses was one of
> the smartest thing they ever did! Yes, it leads to all sorts of horrible
> operating practices, but CB and -- more contemporarily -- FRS/GMRS and WiFi
> had provided *huge* benefits for people (and many millions of dollars in
> equipment sales) nationwide. I'd hate to live in a country where there's no
> such thing as a license-free $20 pair of FRS-type walkie talkies or $20 WiFi
> cards for high-speed Internet access.
>
>> Virtually all of our bad radio operating procedures, of all radio
>> services, can all be traced back to the bad operating technique found
>> in the 11 meter cb band....
>
> I'd say they can be traced back to human nature. People were rowdy and
> "uncouth" in, say, taverns for thousands of years before CB came along.
>
> ---Joel
>
>
At the time "CB" in the 27mhz region made sense because UHF equipment
was too expensive to build for the masses. That's no longer true. The
FCC should eliminate the 27 mhz CB service before the start of the next
sunspot cycle and force everyone there to move to UHF. One of CB's
biggest problems was interference from 'skip' (DX), and it is illegal to
work DX stations anyway.

[Joel Kolstad]

"ken scharf" > wrote in message
.. .
> At the time "CB" in the 27mhz region made sense because UHF equipment
> was too expensive to build for the masses. That's no longer true. The
> FCC should eliminate the 27 mhz CB service before the start of the next
> sunspot cycle and force everyone there to move to UHF.

I like your reasoning, although realistically they'd have to have a
well-publicized program to do so that would most likely have various
"deadlines" that would get pushed back a few times before really having any
meaning (just as the switch to broadcast HDTV has done!) I'd expect that
equpiment manufacturers would -- for a time -- be building dual-band radios.

Given how "abused" FRS and GMRS are anyway, perhaps the FCC could just drop
the GMRS licensing requirement and pretty much be done with it!

> One of CB's
> biggest problems was interference from 'skip' (DX), and it is illegal to
> work DX stations anyway.

Really -- I didn't know that (the part about it being illegal)! Seems a
little silly to me...

---Joel

[John Smith]

wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 09:40:54 -0800, "Joel Kolstad"
> > wrote:
>
>> "ken scharf" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>> At the time "CB" in the 27mhz region made sense because UHF equipment
>>> was too expensive to build for the masses. That's no longer true. The
>>> FCC should eliminate the 27 mhz CB service before the start of the next
>>> sunspot cycle and force everyone there to move to UHF.
>> I like your reasoning, although realistically they'd have to have a
>> well-publicized program to do so that would most likely have various
>> "deadlines" that would get pushed back a few times before really having any
>> meaning (just as the switch to broadcast HDTV has done!) I'd expect that
>> equpiment manufacturers would -- for a time -- be building dual-band radios.
>
> get that band back for Ham use is simply imposible too many rigs out
> there
>> Given how "abused" FRS and GMRS are anyway, perhaps the FCC could just drop
>> the GMRS licensing requirement and pretty much be done with it!
>>
>>> One of CB's
>>> biggest problems was interference from 'skip' (DX), and it is illegal to
>>> work DX stations anyway.
>> Really -- I didn't know that (the part about it being illegal)! Seems a
>> little silly to me...
>>
> indeed it is ilegal to make a contact more than 150 miles away from
> you a rule I have broeken without trying near the top of the last
> cycle with a a mag mount on AM was living near springfield IL
> mentioned the town springfield someone came back refered to roads that
> don't exist so yes I have broken that rule and was techinal subjec to
> a serve fine becuase the FCC tried to rewrie the laws of physics
>
> it makes it difcult for me to be too critcal of breaking other of the
> rules when the rules are so hard to take seriously
>> ---Joel
>>
> http://kb9rqz.blogspot.com/
>

That arrangement of words comes nearest the most logic, reason and
formed thought I believe ever sprang forth from your keyboard.

JS