First... what is phasing of verticals.

My 40 m dipole is only 30' up...would vertical phasing be an
improvement?

What would be the dimensions of the vertical and spacing distance?

"bb" wrote in message ...
First... what is phasing of verticals.

My 40 m dipole is only 30' up...would vertical phasing be an
improvement?

What would be the dimensions of the vertical and spacing distance?


probably. depends on how tall you can make verticals and if you can put
enough radials under them. a square array of 4 vertical's 1/4 wavelength on
a side can outperform a 2 element beam at 120' at some times on some paths,
and most of the time on a few long paths in my experience. phasing 2
inverted L's can perform as well as and sometimes better than a single
inverted V. just remember, the verticals probably won't be better close in,
so when you compare them do it with stations that are a good distance away.

bb wrote:
First... what is phasing of verticals.

Essentially the same as phasing of horizontal elements. If you turn
a 40m horizontal Yagi on it's side and bury half of it under a good
ground plane, you have a vertical beam.

My 40 m dipole is only 30' up...would vertical phasing be an
improvement?

Maybe, maybe not. At my QTH, the vertical noise is 2 s-units higher
than the horizontal noise rendering any vertical antenna virtually
unusable. No vertical that I have ever tried could overcome that
-10 dB disadvantage. But your QTH could be entirely different from
mine. It is possible, but not likely, that your vertical noise is
lower than your horizontal noise.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Cecil Moore wrote in message ...
bb wrote:
First... what is phasing of verticals.

Essentially the same as phasing of horizontal elements. If you turn
a 40m horizontal Yagi on it's side and bury half of it under a good
ground plane, you have a vertical beam.

My 40 m dipole is only 30' up...would vertical phasing be an
improvement?

A single vertical would be an improvement over a dipole at 30 ft if
working dx.
Two phased would be even better. If you aren't working dx, but more
close in stations within a few hundred miles, you would be better off
phasing parallel dipoles for gain. A bit of gain nearly equal to a 2
el yagi, and about an average 20 db f/b.

Maybe, maybe not. At my QTH, the vertical noise is 2 s-units higher
than the horizontal noise rendering any vertical antenna virtually
unusable. No vertical that I have ever tried could overcome that
-10 dB disadvantage. But your QTH could be entirely different from
mine. It is possible, but not likely, that your vertical noise is
lower than your horizontal noise.

If you are using the vertical for long haul, the increased received
noise is a non issue. The signals will override the noise. IE: the
noise might be 2 s units higher, but the signal increase over the low
dipole will likely be more than that. The vertical still wins overall.
Noise was never an issue when I used mine. The increased signals
always overrode it by a good amount. You didn't see this because you
didn't use yours for long haul. Many times my GP was nearly as quiet
as the dipole. If there is no vertically polarized local noise, there
is little difference between the two. At the moment I have three
antennas on 160. An inv L, a top load vertical, and a Z dipole. All
receive about equal noise as far as S meter reading. The dipole is
just as noisy as the other two on that band. Only my indoor 16 inch
small loop is really quiet...:/ MK

Yes, phased verticals will outperform a dipole. The concept of phased
verticals involves two or more verticals, specifically spaced, and fed with
specific lengths of feedline to control the phasing of the signals they're
transmitting.

Based on the spacing used, and the phasing arrangements, you can creat
patterns of directed transmitted energy, just like a beam antenna - it *is*
a beam antenna.

Your best option now is to pick up a few books on basic antenna theory; I
would suggest the ARRL Antenna Book, and Low-Band DXing by ON4UN...

Mike KI6PR
El Rancho R.F., CA

"bb" wrote
First... what is phasing of verticals.

My 40 m dipole is only 30' up...would vertical phasing be an
improvement?

What would be the dimensions of the vertical and spacing distance?

Mikey wrote:
Yes, phased verticals will outperform a dipole.

Some phased verticals will outperform a dipole, depending upon how one
defines "outperform". A dipole at a decent height can have a 7 dB gain
over a 1/4 WL monopole. A two-element phased vertical cannot equal that
figure over average ground. Reference: Fig 10, Chapter 8, The ARRL Antenna
Book, 15th edition. The maximum gain figure for a two-element phased vertical
is 4.7 dB over a 1/4 WL monopole. The average is about 3 dB depending on
spacing and phasing. That same graphic is Fig 11, Chapter 8, on the ARRL
Antenna Book CD, ver 2.0.

EZNEC sez my simple 130 ft. dipole at 40 ft. has a gain of 10.8 dBi on
10m with a take-off-angle of 12 degrees. It would take quite a vertical
array to equal that. (Then I would have to somehow overcome a +10 dB
vertically polarized noise level. :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Cecil Moore wrote in message ...
Mikey wrote:
Yes, phased verticals will outperform a dipole.

Some phased verticals will outperform a dipole, depending upon how one
defines "outperform".

It's more depending on the distance worked.

A dipole at a decent height can have a 7 dB gain
over a 1/4 WL monopole.

His is at 30 ft. Yea, it might have 7 db max gain over the vertical.
If he's working within 500 miles...

A two-element phased vertical cannot equal that
figure over average ground.

Are you saying he should avoid radials, and use only the fairly lame
"average ground"? No wonder none of your verticals work well... Cecil,
I got news for you. A GOOD 2 el phased vertical setup would trounce a
dipole at 30 ft at long distances past 1000 miles. A single GOOD
vertical will beat the dipole on the same longer paths. Of course, I'm
talking real verticals with the proper number of radials per height in
wavelength, not some shortened loaded storebought junk, with no
radials.

Reference: Fig 10, Chapter 8, The ARRL Antenna
Book, 15th edition. The maximum gain figure for a two-element phased vertical
is 4.7 dB over a 1/4 WL monopole. The average is about 3 dB depending on
spacing and phasing. That same graphic is Fig 11, Chapter 8, on the ARRL
Antenna Book CD, ver 2.0.

Gain fiqures are very misleading in this case. Tells only about half
the story.
You are causing more confusion than anything, because you don't
properly apply the antennas to their proper jobs/paths. You never saw
good results with yours because you misapplied it by using it for
short paths, and also stunted it's performance by using too few
radials. It never had a chance.

EZNEC sez my simple 130 ft. dipole at 40 ft. has a gain of 10.8 dBi on
10m with a take-off-angle of 12 degrees. It would take quite a vertical
array to equal that. (Then I would have to somehow overcome a +10 dB
vertically polarized noise level. :-)

What direction is all this gain? What will happen when you have to
work someone in one of your nulls? Heck, I bet many of my old 5/8
ground planes would have equaled or beat your signal on 10m, to *most*
people. I don't ever remember being beat by a simple dipole. In fact,
when I used ground planes on 10m, I considered a horizontal dipole to
generally be inferior. I know the ones I had were inferior to my
ground planes at paths 1500-2000 miles away. And yes, some were long,
and should have shown gain. They were over a wavelength high also. I
wonder how your 10.8 dbi on 10m dipole would stack against my
Cushcraft A4S beam? It has less gain according to the specs. But, I
bet it beats your dipole on 10m in any direction if mounted at the
same height. BTW, none of my 10m ground planes showed a 10 db increase
in noise over my dipoles or other wire antennas. MK

Mark Keith wrote:
You are causing more confusion than anything, because you don't
properly apply the antennas to their proper jobs/paths. You never saw
good results with yours because you misapplied it by using it for
short paths, and also stunted it's performance by using too few
radials. It never had a chance.

I didn't say anything about my vertical, Mark. I merely quoted The
ARRL Antenna Book and EZNEC results. Your (biased) argument is with
them, not with me.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Cecil Moore wrote in message ...
Mark Keith wrote:
You are causing more confusion than anything, because you don't
properly apply the antennas to their proper jobs/paths. You never saw
good results with yours because you misapplied it by using it for
short paths, and also stunted it's performance by using too few
radials. It never had a chance.

I didn't say anything about my vertical, Mark. I merely quoted The
ARRL Antenna Book and EZNEC results. Your (biased) argument is with
them, not with me.

I guess so then. I know that applying that info to the real world will
not really pan out on longer low band paths despite what models might
say about gain at a certain lower angle. It's below 10 degrees or so
that really counts to long dx.
Biased? Maybe so. But at least I've actually used a good full sized
elevated vertical to be able to make an accurate opinion. Over a three
or four year time span I might add. It's not like I'm speculating or
just barking at the moon. I made nightly comparisons. I nearly wore my
antenna switch out switching back and forth. When on a long path at
1500 miles or farther, not a single time was the vertical "in my case
elevated ground plane" ever beat by the dipole I had at 36 ft. Not
one. Nada. Zip. And at that 1500 mile mark to CA., the vertical was
always 2 S units better. Always! Of course, you have fading where the
peaks of each polarization swap back and forth, but the peaks of the
vertical were always 2 s units stronger than the peaks of the
horizontal dipole. And this was reciprical. I didn't have to get on
the air reports to see which antenna was better to a certain place.
Yep, I guess you could call me biased...I'd even take this farther and
speculate that the dipole even at a half wave "65 ft on 40m" would
have trouble beating the elevated vertical I had on long paths. After
all, it's going to have to come up an average of 4 S units "average
report given to me over the 36 ft dipole" to a long DX haul site to do
it. "IE: TX to VK land". Do you think raising the dipole from 36 ft to
65 ft will give me 4 more S units to VK land? Maybe, but I really
doubt it myself. W8JI's tests of high 160m dipoles, vs tower
verticals tends to back me up on this. Tom once said he thought a
high 160m dipole would surely tromp over the verticals and he put one
up. I think modeling told him it would be better. But it didn't pan
out. I seem to recall him saying it was a waste of time and tower
space.. Or something along those lines...If I add to add anything for
the benefit of the original poster, it would be to consider the path
length, when deciding which to use. If he doesn't work dx, he probably
doesn't want a vertical. He'd be better off with a dipole array. If he
does, he oughta try one. If it's a good vertical, he'll like it. My
dipole is so lame compared to my GP on 40m late at night, I actually
quit getting on the air at night after I took it down. Instantly
dropping 4 s units to VK land is no fun. I still have the antenna on
the side of the house though, if I ever feel the need to brown the
food over there. The guys running bobtail curtains, "basically a
vertical phased array" did even better than I did. They were the only
ones that could beat me consistantly every night.
And they were mounted on the ground to boot, compared to my GP at 36
ft.
There is power in the number of elements... MK

Mark Keith wrote:
Yep, I guess you could call me biased...I'd even take this farther and
speculate that the dipole even at a half wave "65 ft on 40m" would
have trouble beating the elevated vertical I had on long paths.

But, Mark, you are neglecting physical efficiency. Divide the performance
by the amount of metal required for each antenna and see what you get. :-)
My dipole uses 1/2WL of wire. Your vertical uses how many wavelengths of
wire?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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