Problem with National NC-57

[N4JOY]

Hi -- I recently completed some repair work on a National NC-57. I
did the typical replacement of electrolytics, out of tolerance
resistors, etc. It was functioning reasonably well beforehand but was
in need of some TLC. Following my repair work, I turned the unit on
and am only receiving a hum with no RX. I conducted some resistance
measurements at all tube sockets and every measurement was nominal
(according to my NC-57 manual) except for pin 6 of tube 7 (6V6GT).
The manual indicates a resistance reading of 380K ohms and I'm
receiving around 50K ohms (same as pin 3 and pin 4). To be honest, I
can't see how pin 6 should be 380K ohms. The output transformer
primary shunt resistor is 22K ohms and everything is wired correctly
at the tube socket. I double checked my work and carefully reviewed
the schematics -- everything looks good. I'm really stumped here...

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Chris, N4JOY

[Don Bowey]

On 1/28/08 9:37 AM, in article
, "N4JOY"
> wrote:

> Hi -- I recently completed some repair work on a National NC-57. I
> did the typical replacement of electrolytics, out of tolerance
> resistors, etc. It was functioning reasonably well beforehand but was
> in need of some TLC. Following my repair work, I turned the unit on
> and am only receiving a hum with no RX. I conducted some resistance
> measurements at all tube sockets and every measurement was nominal
> (according to my NC-57 manual) except for pin 6 of tube 7 (6V6GT).
> The manual indicates a resistance reading of 380K ohms and I'm
> receiving around 50K ohms (same as pin 3 and pin 4). To be honest, I
> can't see how pin 6 should be 380K ohms. The output transformer
> primary shunt resistor is 22K ohms and everything is wired correctly
> at the tube socket. I double checked my work and carefully reviewed
> the schematics -- everything looks good. I'm really stumped here...
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated!
>
> Chris, N4JOY

There is either a wiring error or a defective component. Pin 6 of the tube
socket is not used by the tube, so it is obviously used as a tie-point.
Trace in both directions from pin 6 and you should find the problem.

Hmmmmm... Are you certain that each tube is in it's correct socket?

[Scott Dorsey]

N4JOY > wrote:
>Hi -- I recently completed some repair work on a National NC-57. I
>did the typical replacement of electrolytics, out of tolerance
>resistors, etc. It was functioning reasonably well beforehand but was
>in need of some TLC. Following my repair work, I turned the unit on
>and am only receiving a hum with no RX. I conducted some resistance
>measurements at all tube sockets and every measurement was nominal
>(according to my NC-57 manual) except for pin 6 of tube 7 (6V6GT).
>The manual indicates a resistance reading of 380K ohms and I'm
>receiving around 50K ohms (same as pin 3 and pin 4). To be honest, I
>can't see how pin 6 should be 380K ohms. The output transformer
>primary shunt resistor is 22K ohms and everything is wired correctly
>at the tube socket. I double checked my work and carefully reviewed
>the schematics -- everything looks good. I'm really stumped here...

Remove the tube. Does the resistance change?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[N4JOY]

On Jan 28, 2:26*pm, Don Bowey > wrote:
> On 1/28/08 9:37 AM, in article
> , "N4JOY"
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > Hi -- I recently completed some repair work on a National NC-57. *I
> > did the typical replacement of electrolytics, out of tolerance
> > resistors, etc. *It was functioning reasonably well beforehand but was
> > in need of some TLC. *Following my repair work, I turned the unit on
> > and am only receiving a hum with no RX. *I conducted some resistance
> > measurements at all tube sockets and every measurement was nominal
> > (according to my NC-57 manual) except for pin 6 of tube 7 (6V6GT).
> > The manual indicates a resistance reading of 380K ohms and I'm
> > receiving around 50K ohms (same as pin 3 and pin 4). *To be honest, I
> > can't see how pin 6 should be 380K ohms. *The output transformer
> > primary shunt resistor is 22K ohms and everything is wired correctly
> > at the tube socket. *I double checked my work and carefully reviewed
> > the schematics -- everything looks good. *I'm really stumped here...
>
> > Any help would be greatly appreciated!
>
> > Chris, N4JOY
>
> There is either a wiring error or a defective component. *Pin 6 of the tube
> socket is not used by the tube, so it is obviously used as a tie-point.
> Trace in both directions from pin 6 and you should find the problem.
>
> Hmmmmm... Are you certain that each tube is in it's correct socket?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thank you for your reply. I just double checked each tube socket and
all tubes are installed correctly. You are right about pin 6 of 6V6GT
(tube 7) being used as a tie point. One end of a .1uf cap and 22K
resistor are soldered to pin 6 (the other end of the .1uf cap goes to
the tone switch). Pin 6 is also jumpered to pin 3, which then
connects to the speaker (output) transformer. Pin 4 has the other end
of the 22K resistor soldered and another lead to the speaker
transformer. There are also two wires leaving pin 4 of 6V6GT: one
goes to the reception switch and the other to the voltage regulator
(pin 4). I left the wiring alone during my repairs so either the
value of 380K ohms in the NC-57 chart is a typo (unlikely) or perhaps
the 6V6GT is defective?

I did try to inject a signal via the antenna connectors with my RF
signal generator... still no luck. I just have a slight hum and no
RX.

Chris, N4JOY

[N4JOY]

On Jan 28, 3:03*pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> N4JOY > wrote:
> >Hi -- I recently completed some repair work on a National NC-57. *I
> >did the typical replacement of electrolytics, out of tolerance
> >resistors, etc. *It was functioning reasonably well beforehand but was
> >in need of some TLC. *Following my repair work, I turned the unit on
> >and am only receiving a hum with no RX. *I conducted some resistance
> >measurements at all tube sockets and every measurement was nominal
> >(according to my NC-57 manual) except for pin 6 of tube 7 (6V6GT).
> >The manual indicates a resistance reading of 380K ohms and I'm
> >receiving around 50K ohms (same as pin 3 and pin 4). *To be honest, I
> >can't see how pin 6 should be 380K ohms. *The output transformer
> >primary shunt resistor is 22K ohms and everything is wired correctly
> >at the tube socket. *I double checked my work and carefully reviewed
> >the schematics -- everything looks good. *I'm really stumped here...
>
> Remove the tube. *Does the resistance change?
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. *C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Hi -- the resistance of pin 6 to ground at 6V6 is 67.9K ohms. It
remains unchanged when the tube is removed.

Thanks,

Chris, N4JOY

[Richard Knoppow]

"N4JOY" > wrote in message
...
On Jan 28, 2:26 pm, Don Bowey > wrote:
> On 1/28/08 9:37 AM, in article
> ,
> "N4JOY"
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > Hi -- I recently completed some repair work on a
> > National NC-57. I
> > did the typical replacement of electrolytics, out of
> > tolerance
> > resistors, etc. It was functioning reasonably well
> > beforehand but was
> > in need of some TLC. Following my repair work, I turned
> > the unit on
> > and am only receiving a hum with no RX. I conducted some
> > resistance
> > measurements at all tube sockets and every measurement
> > was nominal
> > (according to my NC-57 manual) except for pin 6 of tube
> > 7 (6V6GT).
> > The manual indicates a resistance reading of 380K ohms
> > and I'm
> > receiving around 50K ohms (same as pin 3 and pin 4). To
> > be honest, I
> > can't see how pin 6 should be 380K ohms. The output
> > transformer
> > primary shunt resistor is 22K ohms and everything is
> > wired correctly
> > at the tube socket. I double checked my work and
> > carefully reviewed
> > the schematics -- everything looks good. I'm really
> > stumped here...
>
> > Any help would be greatly appreciated!
>
> > Chris, N4JOY
>
> There is either a wiring error or a defective component.
> Pin 6 of the tube
> socket is not used by the tube, so it is obviously used as
> a tie-point.
> Trace in both directions from pin 6 and you should find
> the problem.
>
> Hmmmmm... Are you certain that each tube is in it's
> correct socket?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thank you for your reply. I just double checked each tube
socket and
all tubes are installed correctly. You are right about pin
6 of 6V6GT
(tube 7) being used as a tie point. One end of a .1uf cap
and 22K
resistor are soldered to pin 6 (the other end of the .1uf
cap goes to
the tone switch). Pin 6 is also jumpered to pin 3, which
then
connects to the speaker (output) transformer. Pin 4 has the
other end
of the 22K resistor soldered and another lead to the speaker
transformer. There are also two wires leaving pin 4 of
6V6GT: one
goes to the reception switch and the other to the voltage
regulator
(pin 4). I left the wiring alone during my repairs so
either the
value of 380K ohms in the NC-57 chart is a typo (unlikely)
or perhaps
the 6V6GT is defective?

I did try to inject a signal via the antenna connectors with
my RF
signal generator... still no luck. I just have a slight hum
and no
RX.

Chris, N4JOY

[Richard Knoppow]

"N4JOY" > wrote in message
...
On Jan 28, 2:26 pm, Don Bowey > wrote:
> On 1/28/08 9:37 AM, in article
> ,
> "N4JOY"
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > Hi -- I recently completed some repair work on a
> > National NC-57. I
> > did the typical replacement of electrolytics, out of
> > tolerance
> > resistors, etc. It was functioning reasonably well
> > beforehand but was
> > in need of some TLC. Following my repair work, I turned
> > the unit on
> > and am only receiving a hum with no RX. I conducted some
> > resistance
> > measurements at all tube sockets and every measurement
> > was nominal
> > (according to my NC-57 manual) except for pin 6 of tube
> > 7 (6V6GT).
> > The manual indicates a resistance reading of 380K ohms
> > and I'm
> > receiving around 50K ohms (same as pin 3 and pin 4). To
> > be honest, I
> > can't see how pin 6 should be 380K ohms. The output
> > transformer
> > primary shunt resistor is 22K ohms and everything is
> > wired correctly
> > at the tube socket. I double checked my work and
> > carefully reviewed
> > the schematics -- everything looks good. I'm really
> > stumped here...
>
> > Any help would be greatly appreciated!
>
> > Chris, N4JOY
>
> There is either a wiring error or a defective component.
> Pin 6 of the tube
> socket is not used by the tube, so it is obviously used as
> a tie-point.
> Trace in both directions from pin 6 and you should find
> the problem.
>
> Hmmmmm... Are you certain that each tube is in it's
> correct socket?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thank you for your reply. I just double checked each tube
socket and
all tubes are installed correctly. You are right about pin
6 of 6V6GT
(tube 7) being used as a tie point. One end of a .1uf cap
and 22K
resistor are soldered to pin 6 (the other end of the .1uf
cap goes to
the tone switch). Pin 6 is also jumpered to pin 3, which
then
connects to the speaker (output) transformer. Pin 4 has the
other end
of the 22K resistor soldered and another lead to the speaker
transformer. There are also two wires leaving pin 4 of
6V6GT: one
goes to the reception switch and the other to the voltage
regulator
(pin 4). I left the wiring alone during my repairs so
either the
value of 380K ohms in the NC-57 chart is a typo (unlikely)
or perhaps
the 6V6GT is defective?

I did try to inject a signal via the antenna connectors with
my RF
signal generator... still no luck. I just have a slight hum
and no
RX.

Chris, N4JOY

The junction of the 0.1uf cap and 22K ohm resistor is at
the plate of the tube. I hate to be obvious but are you
counting the pins in the right direction?
The 22K resistor goes between plate and screen grid of
the 6V6.
See if your hum changes with the volume control. The
control is on the grid of the first audio tube and from that
plate to the grid of the 6V6. If there is no change in hum
level the problem is probably after the first audio, or
nothing is getting to the grid. If the hum does change the
problem is probably in the detector circuit somewhere. If
you can try signal tracing the audio path.
My guess is that your eye keeps missing some miswired
connection. That happens all the time. Perhaps you can get
someone else to go over the stuff you replaced. Sometimes
another person will spot a moved wire or short right away
when you have struggled with it for hours.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

[Richard Knoppow]

On Jan 28, 2:21 pm, "Richard Knoppow" > wrote:
> "N4JOY" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Jan 28, 2:26 pm, Don Bowey > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 1/28/08 9:37 AM, in article
> > ,
> > "N4JOY"
>
> > > wrote:
> > > Hi -- I recently completed some repair work on a
> > > National NC-57. I
> > > did the typical replacement of electrolytics, out of
> > > tolerance
> > > resistors, etc. It was functioning reasonably well
> > > beforehand but was
> > > in need of some TLC. Following my repair work, I turned
> > > the unit on
> > > and am only receiving a hum with no RX. I conducted some
> > > resistance
> > > measurements at all tube sockets and every measurement
> > > was nominal
> > > (according to my NC-57 manual) except for pin 6 of tube
> > > 7 (6V6GT).
> > > The manual indicates a resistance reading of 380K ohms
> > > and I'm
> > > receiving around 50K ohms (same as pin 3 and pin 4). To
> > > be honest, I
> > > can't see how pin 6 should be 380K ohms. The output
> > > transformer
> > > primary shunt resistor is 22K ohms and everything is
> > > wired correctly
> > > at the tube socket. I double checked my work and
> > > carefully reviewed
> > > the schematics -- everything looks good. I'm really
> > > stumped here...
>
> > > Any help would be greatly appreciated!
>
> > > Chris, N4JOY
>
> > There is either a wiring error or a defective component.
> > Pin 6 of the tube
> > socket is not used by the tube, so it is obviously used as
> > a tie-point.
> > Trace in both directions from pin 6 and you should find
> > the problem.
>
> > Hmmmmm... Are you certain that each tube is in it's
> > correct socket?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Thank you for your reply. I just double checked each tube
> socket and
> all tubes are installed correctly. You are right about pin
> 6 of 6V6GT
> (tube 7) being used as a tie point. One end of a .1uf cap
> and 22K
> resistor are soldered to pin 6 (the other end of the .1uf
> cap goes to
> the tone switch). Pin 6 is also jumpered to pin 3, which
> then
> connects to the speaker (output) transformer. Pin 4 has the
> other end
> of the 22K resistor soldered and another lead to the speaker
> transformer. There are also two wires leaving pin 4 of
> 6V6GT: one
> goes to the reception switch and the other to the voltage
> regulator
> (pin 4). I left the wiring alone during my repairs so
> either the
> value of 380K ohms in the NC-57 chart is a typo (unlikely)
> or perhaps
> the 6V6GT is defective?
>
> I did try to inject a signal via the antenna connectors with
> my RF
> signal generator... still no luck. I just have a slight hum
> and no
> RX.
>
> Chris, N4JOY
>
> The junction of the 0.1uf cap and 22K ohm resistor is at
> the plate of the tube. I hate to be obvious but are you
> counting the pins in the right direction?
> The 22K resistor goes between plate and screen grid of
> the 6V6.
> See if your hum changes with the volume control. The
> control is on the grid of the first audio tube and from that
> plate to the grid of the 6V6. If there is no change in hum
> level the problem is probably after the first audio, or
> nothing is getting to the grid. If the hum does change the
> problem is probably in the detector circuit somewhere. If
> you can try signal tracing the audio path.
> My guess is that your eye keeps missing some miswired
> connection. That happens all the time. Perhaps you can get
> someone else to go over the stuff you replaced. Sometimes
> another person will spot a moved wire or short right away
> when you have struggled with it for hours.
>
> --
> ---
> Richard Knoppow
> Los Angeles, CA, USA
>

Since posting this I've discovered that there are two versions of
the NC-57, the 57 and the 57B. They are not quite alike. The NC-57
that appears in the Sams Photofact booklet is the B version. Since
that has socket resistance values and the National handbooks do not I
assume that is what you have. The handbooks for both the NC-57 and the
57B are available on the BAMA site. One difference is the location of
the volume control. In the B version the control is as I described,
that is, at the grid of the first audio stage. In the first version it
is at the grid of the output stage. If you have an original NC-57 and
have been following the schematic in the Sams Photofact folder you may
have been mislead in your wiring. Its certainly worth checking.

--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

[N4JOY]

I appreciate everyone's suggestions. Per Richard's great advice, I
verified that the NC-57 I own is indeed a NC-57B. Also, the slight
hum does change in volume. However, I noticed that my 6SL7 (AF amp-
BFO) was only slightly warm to the touch while the other tubes were
obviously quite hot after several minutes. Perhaps I have a filament
going out or the tube has failed. I'll replace the 6SL7 and update
the group. Hopefully this will work!

Chris, N4JOY

[Richard Knoppow]

"N4JOY" > wrote in message
...
>I appreciate everyone's suggestions. Per Richard's great
>advice, I
> verified that the NC-57 I own is indeed a NC-57B. Also,
> the slight
> hum does change in volume. However, I noticed that my
> 6SL7 (AF amp-
> BFO) was only slightly warm to the touch while the other
> tubes were
> obviously quite hot after several minutes. Perhaps I have
> a filament
> going out or the tube has failed. I'll replace the 6SL7
> and update
> the group. Hopefully this will work!
>
> Chris, N4JOY

Check the voltages at the tube socket. Its possible
there is a cold solder joint at the filament. Note that only
part of the heat of a tube comes from the filament so beng
warm but not hot may not indicate a bad tube but may
indicate the HV is not there. Make sure the "send/receive"
switch has not failed. That would cause a similar problem.
All of the handbooks have charts showing voltages at the
tube sockets. These should be checked with the tubes in
place, either at the bottom of the socket or by using a
socket extender. There may be a clue there.
Also, don't trust the replacement resistors and
capacitors to be working. While they are in general quite
reliable you may have gotten a bad one so they should be
checked. I have a feeling this is something very simple of
the sort making you say Doh! when you find it:-)
BTW, the NC-57 looks like a very good little receiver,
probably better than its competition the Hallicrafters S-40.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

[afcsman]

Yes, I'm being a Brazen Neighbor, but I see that my notice
of a Q-multiplier auction is next to your message. Also,
after referring to a copy of your receiver's manual at the
BAMA site, I see (a) No selectivity, and (b) You'd only have
to move the ground pin on my QF-1 to make it compatible to
the '57. Just a thought...for something you could use after
you fix the problem...
Regards,

-afcsman-
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&sspagename=STRK%3AMESEX%3AIT&viewitem=&item=200196598010&_trksid=p3984.cSELL.m315.lVI


N4JOY wrote:
> Hi -- I recently completed some repair work on a National NC-57. I
> did the typical replacement of electrolytics, out of tolerance
> resistors, etc. It was functioning reasonably well beforehand but was
> in need of some TLC. Following my repair work, I turned the unit on
> and am only receiving a hum with no RX. I conducted some resistance
> measurements at all tube sockets and every measurement was nominal
> (according to my NC-57 manual) except for pin 6 of tube 7 (6V6GT).
> The manual indicates a resistance reading of 380K ohms and I'm
> receiving around 50K ohms (same as pin 3 and pin 4). To be honest, I
> can't see how pin 6 should be 380K ohms. The output transformer
> primary shunt resistor is 22K ohms and everything is wired correctly
> at the tube socket. I double checked my work and carefully reviewed
> the schematics -- everything looks good. I'm really stumped here...
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated!
>
> Chris, N4JOY