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Old February 10th 09, 10:34 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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JB wrote:

I seem to recall reading that Styrene had the best dielectric properties of
the plastics.

I did some similar experiments building 1/4 wave spikes in a BNC connector
for 2m HTs and found that glues would heat up from the RF. Clear epoxy
worked best and JB weld, Pipe dope, Silicone sealers and Hot glue were poor
performers. I still have some fiberglass tape that I use for torroids.


Of common plastics, Teflon, polyethylene, styrene, and polypropylene
have the lowest RF loss. However, others can be perfectly adequate for
some applications.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL
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Old February 10th 09, 11:10 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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"Roy Lewallen" wrote in message
treetonline...
JB wrote:

I seem to recall reading that Styrene had the best dielectric properties

of
the plastics.

I did some similar experiments building 1/4 wave spikes in a BNC

connector
for 2m HTs and found that glues would heat up from the RF. Clear epoxy
worked best and JB weld, Pipe dope, Silicone sealers and Hot glue were

poor
performers. I still have some fiberglass tape that I use for torroids.


Of common plastics, Teflon, polyethylene, styrene, and polypropylene
have the lowest RF loss. However, others can be perfectly adequate for
some applications.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL


Actually made good working ladder line from bell wire from the Science dept.
and plastic spoons from the lunchroom for the school radio club station.
The ugliest, goofiest looking projects always seem to work the best.

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Old February 11th 09, 01:04 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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Having read Roy's impressive measurement results, I would like to
interject a word of caution about the use of RTV's in electronic
applications.

As Roy states, many RTV sealants and adhesives use a curing process that
releases acetic acid (vinegar).
These should be used with care in electronic applications as the acetic
acid can, and does, cause corrosion on metallic surfaces in the vicinity
of the curing RTV.

Coils constructed with a medium to heavy gauge of wire are unlikely to
suffer from this but any inductors employing fine gauge wire can fail
due to corroded (broken) turns resulting from contact with the acetic
acid. The effect is not immediately apparent and can take months or
years before a problem arises.

Application of acid curing RTV should also be avoided to any component
in an assembled electronic device that has switch contacts or plug and
socket contacts in the immediate vicinity, for the same reason.

Electronic grade RTVs do not use an acid curing process and have been
developed to avoid the above problems.

Derek (ex Dow Corning employee)


In message tonline,
Roy Lewallen writes
Dr. Barry L. Ornitz wrote:
. . .
Roy Lewallen, W7EL, dipped a number of coils in various materials
(RTV silicone, epoxy cement, Q-dope, hot melt adhesive, etc.) a while
back and then measured their losses with a Q-meter. If Roy can find
his old article, perhaps he can post it again.


Great memory, Barry! It was posted on Dec. 16, 1998. A copy of the
original posting follows. I didn't do any other experiments as I said I
would, and I've gotten very little confirming or contradictory feedback.

I recall you and some other folks posting some very good information
about RTV, the general thrust of which was that there's a very wide
range of formulations, so results might vary a lot from what I measured.

---------------

Spurred by recent comments and questions on this newsgroup, I made
some inductors last weekend and measured them. Results follow.

Toroidal Inductor Measurements

Roy Lewallen, W7EL
December, 1998


Test Equipment

Inductance: GR 1606-A impedance meter. Stray series impedance was
removed by initial calibration. Stray shunt capacitance was separately
measured and removed mathematically. Repeatability is within about +/-
2%. No attempt was made to establish accuracy.

Q: A home-made fixture was used. This is simply an air-variable
capacitor which the inductor is connected across. Coupling into and
out of the fixture with signal generator and oscilloscope is done with
very small capacitors. The Q is calculated from the center frequency
and 3 dB bandwidth. Use of frequency counter, built-in oscilloscope
voltmeter, and switchable 3 dB pad allow repeatability of about +/-
2%. Checks against a commercial Q meter show agreement within a few
percent.

All measurements were made at 10 MHz.

Experiment 1: Coatings

Several identical inductors were fabricated, then coated with various
compounds. Inductance and Q were measured before and after coating.
The inductors were wound on Micrometals T-50-6 cores (Carbonyl SF
material, relative permeability 8.5) with 25 turns of #22 wire. This
just fits on a single layer.

Ind. # Uncoated Coated Coating
L(uH) Q L(uH) Q

1 2.54 281 2.54 284 None (control)
2 2.52 286 2.54 218 Duco cement
3 2.51 267 2.52 265 Standard RTV
4 2.52 280
5 2.54 279 2.55 255 Clear hot melt glue
6 2.48 268 2.55 164 "Sealing tape"
7 2.51 283 2.51 262 Paraffin
8 2.55 262
9 2.56 281 2.59 278 GE Silicone II
10 2.50 283
11 2.51 277

Notes (by inductor number):

Unless otherwise noted, coatings covered the entire core and winding,
extending more than a wire diameter beyond the outside of the wire,
and the center of the core was filled.

Inductances within about 0.3 uH and Q's within less than about 5
should be considered equal.

1. Inductor Q was measured several times over several days to
establish repeatability. Results were 280, 281, 283, 286, 284. (The
apparent trend is interesting, but not conclusive.)
2. Devcon Duco(R) Cement, allowed to dry for 24 hours. Although a
generous coating was applied, the dried coating was less than a wire
diameter in thickness, and the center of the core wasn't filled.
3. Dap Dow Corning 100% Silicone Sealant, Clear, allowed to cure for
24 hours. This is standard acetic-acid (vinegar) curing RTV.
5. Stanley All Purpose GlueSticks, claimed set time 25-30 seconds.
These are nearly clear, translucent white, and not tan or brown
colored.
6. This was some stuff I got surplus. It's a black, sticky, rubbery
compound something like Coax Seal, but may be of entirely different
composition. It's in the form of a thick tape. It's soluble in naphtha
(and the solution dyes everything black it gets on), but acetone
doesn't touch it.
7. Household canning paraffin. (I don't know what it's called in
Britain, but I'm not referring to the liquid -- kerosene to us -- you
call paraffin. This is a common wax made from petroleum.)
9. GE Silicone II Household Glue & Seal, Clear. This is a
non-acetic-acid curing RTV. Allowed to cure for two days. Still just a
little soft even after this much curing.
11. This is the same core as #6. After the coated #6 was measured, the
core was cleaned, the winding cut off, the core further cleaned, then
a new winding put on.

Comments:

I had made some measurements years ago, but couldn't locate the
results. I recall that standard RTV was poor (lowered Q noticeably)
but that an industrial non-acetic-acid curing RTV was good. The
results with standard RTV in this test were striking. Either a) the
formulation of standard RTV has changed over the years, b) there are
major differences among brands, or c) my memory is faulty.

I recall from my earlier tests that epoxy was quite poor, but this has
to be qualified after the experience with RTV. There's a huge number
of different types of epoxy, and some may be much worse than others. I
might test some in the future, but didn't during this test.

I intend to test Q-dope in the future, but didn't have any on hand.

Conclusions:

Of the materials tested, both types of RTV stand out as having a
negligible effect on inductor Q. Hot melt glue and paraffin have a
small enough effect that they should be tolerable for many
applications. Duco cement seriously degrades Q, even in a much thinner
layer than the other coatings. The "sealing tape", tested out of
curiosity, shows just how great a degradation can be caused by a poor
coating.

None of the coatings made much of a change in apparent inductance.
This implies that the reduction in Q is due primarily to dielectric
loss rather than simple increase in capacitance due to the material's
dielectric constant.

Note the difference in inductance and Q between inductors 6 and 11,
which were wound on the same core. Apparently physical differences in
the windings (perhaps such as tightness and conformance to the core,
or uniformity of turn spacing) are a major contributor to differences
between inductors. All the cores used in the test were ordered at the
same time, so they may have come from the same batch and have
relatively little variation. On the basis of just the comparison
between numbers 6 and 11, it's entirely possible that most of the
variation between inductors in this experiment is due to winding
differences. The variation might be less if smaller wire with less
stiffness is used.

Experiment 2: Turn Spacing

I believe it's well established that even a partial second layer can
greatly reduce the Q of a toroidal inductor. But I had recently heard
that optimum Q is achieved when the first layer isn't quite full, but
rather has about a 30 degree gap in the winding, to reduce the
capacitance between winding ends. To test this, I wound 23 turns of
#22 wire on a T-50-6 core, and measured the Q with the turns pushed
close together to make a gap (of about 30 degrees), and then spread to
evenly distribute the turns completely around the core. Measured 10
MHz Q's were 272 and 284, respectively. (Inductances were 2.21 and
2.11 uH.) This one test doesn't by any means exhaust all the
possibilities of core geometries, permeabilities, number of turns, and
wire size, all of which may play a role. But if there's any advantage
to leaving a gap, I believe it would be a small one. And in at least
one case, it's slightly better not to.

Another test was run using 10 turns of the same size wire on the same
core. With the turns pushed together (the winding covering less than
half the core), Q was 213, L was 841 nH. With the turns spread evenly
around the core, Q was 209 but the L had dropped to 505 nH. I reasoned
that a more fair comparison would be with a winding of about the same
inductance as the original close-spaced one. This required 15 turns
when distributed around the core, and resulted in a Q of 257 and L of
924 uH. Here again, the Q is best when the turns are evenly
distributed. Note that type 6 powdered iron has a very low relative
permeability (8.5), so results might be different with
higher-permeability materials. However, this is the material I usually
use for high-Q inductors at HF, so I'm most interested in how it's
affected.

Experiment 3: "Regressive" Winding

In the past, I've found what I thought was a moderate improvement in Q
by "regressively" winding an inductor. To do this, you wind half the
turns in the normal manner. Then you pass the wire through the hole,
but to the opposite side of the inductor (with it ending up beside the
first turn), then completing the winding from the vicinity of the
first turn back toward the origination of the crossover. The result is
an inductor with the two leads coming from points directly opposite
each other. Stray capacitance is allegedly reduced by keeping the ends
of the winding apart. An inductor wound in this manner with 25 turns
of #22 wire measured Q = 285, L = 2.48 uH. This Q is on the high side,
and the L on the low side, of the uncoated inductors measured in
Experiment 1. I didn't try comparing with a standard winding on the
same core, since the same number of turns wound on the same core at
different times (e.g., inductors 6 and 11 in Experiment 1) were shown
to come out differently from each other. My conclusion is that any Q
improvement due to "regressive" winding is slight. Another claim for
"regressive" winding is that it eliminates the "single turn" effect of
toroidal inductors. A normal toroid will couple into its surroundings
as though it consists of a single turn the size of the core. In the
"regressively" wound inductor, there are two half-turns in opposite
directions, so coupling should be reduced. I haven't tested this in
any way, but it may be an argument in favor of the method. The
relatively long wire of the crossover turn would contribute to
coupling, however.

I'll undertake more experiments and measurements as time permits. I'd
love to hear from anyone who has made either supporting or
contradictory quantitative measurements.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL


--
Derek R. Smith.


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Old February 11th 09, 06:40 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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Posts: 12
Default Coil Dope

I have seen hams use silicon sealant to fill a UHF connector before
screwing it together. The idea is to keep out water. (The connection is
also taped or sealed with Coax seal). Is this a good idea?

Bob W8ERD
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Old February 11th 09, 06:48 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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Posts: 828
Default Coil Dope

JB wrote:

Actually made good working ladder line from bell wire from the Science dept.
and plastic spoons from the lunchroom for the school radio club station.
The ugliest, goofiest looking projects always seem to work the best.



Sweet! Any pictures?

- 73 de Mike N3LI -


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Old February 11th 09, 09:50 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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Posts: 543
Default Coil Dope

"Bob Dixon" wrote in message
...
I have seen hams use silicon sealant to fill a UHF connector before
screwing it together. The idea is to keep out water. (The connection is
also taped or sealed with Coax seal). Is this a good idea?

Bob W8ERD



NO!

The silicone will impair the connection, the dielectric, makes a fumbling
mess and usually causes the tape to come off. Just tightly wrap with
electrical tape and tie off the loose end. It will outlast the coax. Unless
the antenna itself is prone to leak into the connector.

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Old February 11th 09, 10:01 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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Posts: 3
Default Coil Dope

Probably not a good idea.

Silicone Grease would be much less harmful to the connector and be much
easier to undo, when the time comes.

Derek

In message
, Bob
Dixon writes
I have seen hams use silicon sealant to fill a UHF connector before
screwing it together. The idea is to keep out water. (The connection is
also taped or sealed with Coax seal). Is this a good idea?

Bob W8ERD


--
Derek R. Smith.


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Old February 12th 09, 02:27 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 625
Default Coil Dope

On Feb 11, 12:40*pm, Bob Dixon wrote:
I have seen hams use silicon sealant to fill a UHF connector before
screwing it together. The idea is to keep out water. (The connection is
also taped or sealed with Coax seal). Is this a good idea?

Bob W8ERD


I like to grease the threads with silicon dielectric grease to keep
water from wicking up the threads but I have seen people pack N
connectors full of it before screwing them together and cant say it
did any harm. I am am a big fan of wiping down a connector with Deoxit
before puting it together.

I heard that Marvel Mystery Oil works as well as Deoxit. Has anyone
else ever heard of this?

Jimmie
  #19   Report Post  
Old February 12th 09, 02:37 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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Posts: 625
Default Coil Dope

On Feb 11, 7:04*am, "Derek R. Smith"
wrote:
Having read Roy's impressive measurement results, I would like to
interject a word of caution about the use of RTV's in electronic
applications.

As Roy states, many RTV sealants and adhesives use a curing process that
releases acetic acid (vinegar).
These should be used with care in electronic applications as the acetic
acid can, and does, cause corrosion on metallic surfaces in the vicinity
of the curing RTV.

Coils constructed with a medium to heavy gauge of wire are unlikely to
suffer from this but any inductors employing fine gauge wire can fail
due to corroded (broken) turns resulting from contact with the acetic
acid. The effect is not immediately apparent and can take months or
years before a problem arises.

Application of acid curing RTV should also be avoided to any component
in an assembled electronic device that has switch contacts or plug and
socket contacts in the immediate vicinity, for the same reason.

Electronic grade RTVs do not use an acid curing process and have been
developed to avoid the above problems.

Derek (ex Dow Corning employee)

In message tonline,
Roy Lewallen writes



Dr. Barry L. Ornitz wrote:
. . .
Roy Lewallen, W7EL, dipped a number of coils in various materials
(RTV *silicone, epoxy cement, Q-dope, hot melt adhesive, etc.) a while
back *and then measured their losses with a Q-meter. *If Roy can find
his old *article, perhaps he can post it again.


Great memory, Barry! It was posted on Dec. 16, 1998. A copy of the
original posting follows. I didn't do any other experiments as I said I
would, and I've gotten very little confirming or contradictory feedback.


I recall you and some other folks posting some very good information
about RTV, the general thrust of which was that there's a very wide
range of formulations, so results might vary a lot from what I measured.


---------------


Spurred by recent comments and questions on this newsgroup, I made
some inductors last weekend and measured them. Results follow.


* * * * * *Toroidal Inductor Measurements


* * * * * * * * *Roy Lewallen, W7EL
* * * * * * * * * *December, 1998


* * * * * * * * * *Test Equipment


Inductance: GR 1606-A impedance meter. Stray series impedance was
removed by initial calibration. Stray shunt capacitance was separately
measured and removed mathematically. Repeatability is within about +/-
2%. No attempt was made to establish accuracy.


Q: A home-made fixture was used. This is simply an air-variable
capacitor which the inductor is connected across. Coupling into and
out of the fixture with signal generator and oscilloscope is done with
very small capacitors. The Q is calculated from the center frequency
and 3 dB bandwidth. Use of frequency counter, built-in oscilloscope
voltmeter, and switchable 3 dB pad allow repeatability of about +/-
2%. Checks against a commercial Q meter show agreement within a few
percent.


All measurements were made at 10 MHz.


* * * * * * * Experiment 1: Coatings


Several identical inductors were fabricated, then coated with various
compounds. Inductance and Q were measured before and after coating.
The inductors were wound on Micrometals T-50-6 cores (Carbonyl SF
material, relative permeability 8.5) with 25 turns of #22 wire. This
just fits on a single layer.


Ind. # * Uncoated * * * *Coated * * * * Coating
* * * L(uH) * Q * * * L(uH) * Q


1 * * *2.54 * *281 * * 2.54 * *284 * * None (control)
2 * * *2.52 * *286 * * 2.54 * *218 * * Duco cement
3 * * *2.51 * *267 * * 2.52 * *265 * * Standard RTV
4 * * *2.52 * *280
5 * * *2.54 * *279 * * 2.55 * *255 * * Clear hot melt glue
6 * * *2.48 * *268 * * 2.55 * *164 * * "Sealing tape"
7 * * *2.51 * *283 * * 2.51 * *262 * * Paraffin
8 * * *2.55 * *262
9 * * *2.56 * *281 * * 2.59 * *278 * * GE Silicone II
10 * * 2.50 * *283
11 * * 2.51 * *277


Notes (by inductor number):


Unless otherwise noted, coatings covered the entire core and winding,
extending more than a wire diameter beyond the outside of the wire,
and the center of the core was filled.


Inductances within about 0.3 uH and Q's within less than about 5
should be considered equal.


1. Inductor Q was measured several times over several days to
establish repeatability. Results were 280, 281, 283, 286, 284. (The
apparent trend is interesting, but not conclusive.)
2. Devcon Duco(R) Cement, allowed to dry for 24 hours. Although a
generous coating was applied, the dried coating was less than a wire
diameter in thickness, and the center of the core wasn't filled.
3. Dap Dow Corning 100% Silicone Sealant, Clear, allowed to cure for
24 hours. This is standard acetic-acid (vinegar) curing RTV.
5. Stanley All Purpose GlueSticks, claimed set time 25-30 seconds.
These are nearly clear, translucent white, and not tan or brown
colored.
6. This was some stuff I got surplus. It's a black, sticky, rubbery
compound something like Coax Seal, but may be of entirely different
composition. It's in the form of a thick tape. It's soluble in naphtha
(and the solution dyes everything black it gets on), but acetone
doesn't touch it.
7. Household canning paraffin. (I don't know what it's called in
Britain, but I'm not referring to the liquid -- kerosene to us -- you
call paraffin. This is a common wax made from petroleum.)
9. GE Silicone II Household Glue & Seal, Clear. This is a
non-acetic-acid curing RTV. Allowed to cure for two days. Still just a
little soft even after this much curing.
11. This is the same core as #6. After the coated #6 was measured, the
core was cleaned, the winding cut off, the core further cleaned, then
a new winding put on.


Comments:


I had made some measurements years ago, but couldn't locate the
results. I recall that standard RTV was poor (lowered Q noticeably)
but that an industrial non-acetic-acid curing RTV was good. The
results with standard RTV in this test were striking. Either a) the
formulation of standard RTV has changed over the years, b) there are
major differences among brands, or c) my memory is faulty.


I recall from my earlier tests that epoxy was quite poor, but this has
to be qualified after the experience with RTV. There's a huge number
of different types of epoxy, and some may be much worse than others. I
might test some in the future, but didn't during this test.


I intend to test Q-dope in the future, but didn't have any on hand.


Conclusions:


Of the materials tested, both types of RTV stand out as having a
negligible effect on inductor Q. Hot melt glue and paraffin have a
small enough effect that they should be tolerable for many
applications. Duco cement seriously degrades Q, even in a much thinner
layer than the other coatings. The "sealing tape", tested out of
curiosity, shows just how great a degradation can be caused by a poor
coating.


None of the coatings made much of a change in apparent inductance.
This implies that the reduction in Q is due primarily to dielectric
loss rather than simple increase in capacitance due to the material's
dielectric constant.


Note the difference in inductance and Q between inductors 6 and 11,
which were wound on the same core. Apparently physical differences in
the windings (perhaps such as tightness and conformance to the core,
or uniformity of turn spacing) are a major contributor to differences
between inductors. All the cores used in the test were ordered at the
same time, so they may have come from the same batch and have
relatively little variation. On the basis of just the comparison
between numbers 6 and 11, it's entirely possible that most of the
variation between inductors in this experiment is due to winding
differences. The variation might be less if smaller wire with less
stiffness is used.


* * * * * * * Experiment 2: Turn Spacing


I believe it's well established that even a partial second layer can
greatly reduce the Q of a toroidal inductor. But I had recently heard
that optimum Q is achieved when the first layer isn't quite full, but
rather has about a 30 degree gap in the winding, to reduce the
capacitance between winding ends. To test this, I wound 23 turns of
#22 wire on a T-50-6 core, and measured the Q with the turns pushed
close together to make a gap (of about 30 degrees), and then spread to
evenly distribute the turns completely around the core. Measured 10
MHz Q's were 272 and 284, respectively. (Inductances were 2.21 and
2.11 uH.) This one test doesn't by any means exhaust all the
possibilities of core geometries, permeabilities, number of turns, and
wire size, all of which may play a role. But if there's any advantage
to leaving a gap, I believe it would be a small one. And in at least
one case, it's slightly better not to.


Another test was run using 10 turns of the same size wire on the same
core. With the turns pushed together (the winding covering less than
half the core), Q was 213, L was 841 nH. With the turns spread evenly
around the core, Q was 209 but the L had dropped to 505 nH. I reasoned
that a more fair comparison would be with a winding of about the same
inductance as the original close-spaced one. This required 15 turns
when distributed around the core, and resulted in a Q of 257 and L of
924 uH. Here again, the Q is best when the turns are evenly
distributed. Note that type 6 powdered iron has a very low relative
permeability (8.5), so results might be different with
higher-permeability materials. However, this is the material I usually
use for high-Q inductors at HF, so I'm most interested in how it's
affected.


* * * * * * * Experiment 3: "Regressive" Winding


In the past, I've found what I thought was a moderate improvement in Q
by "regressively" winding an inductor. To do this, you wind half the
turns in the normal manner. Then you pass the wire through the hole,
but to the opposite side of the


...

read more »- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Ive see the center conductor of RG214 dissolved through with RTV. The
corrosion on the associated Al/Cu joint was likewise disgusting.

Jimmie
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Old February 12th 09, 06:52 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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JIMMIE wrote:

Ive see the center conductor of RG214 dissolved through with RTV. The
corrosion on the associated Al/Cu joint was likewise disgusting.

Jimmie


And I've used the acetic acid-curing variety many times on bare copper
(wire and PC board traces) and aluminum, and not a hint of corrosion
when it was cut off long after. Besides the wide variety of
formulations, there may be other factors at work causing the
corrosiveness to vary so much.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL
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