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Old October 14th 03, 07:27 PM
Will Reeve
 
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Default Potted 900MHz PCB antenna

Hi,

I have an interesting project! I am using a RF receiver device which has a
50 Ohm RF input. I want to use a PCB printed antenna on FR4 board, not
unusual you say. but I need to pot the whole PCB in resin to make it
waterproof. The receiver only needs to work when floating on water! Has
anyone any experience in PCB antenna who would be so kind to comment on the
effects, and possible actions to counter any effects, of the potting. The
resin is much like araldite.



Any thoughts much appreciated.



Will


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Old October 15th 03, 12:04 AM
Richard Clark
 
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On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 18:27:50 +0000 (UTC), "Will Reeve"
wrote:

Hi,

I have an interesting project! I am using a RF receiver device which has a
50 Ohm RF input. I want to use a PCB printed antenna on FR4 board, not
unusual you say. but I need to pot the whole PCB in resin to make it
waterproof. The receiver only needs to work when floating on water! Has
anyone any experience in PCB antenna who would be so kind to comment on the
effects, and possible actions to counter any effects, of the potting. The
resin is much like araldite.



Any thoughts much appreciated.



Will


Hi Will,

Look into conformal coating as an alternative. Or simply mix acetone
and RTV to create one and paint it on. To cut down on water losses,
it would do well to provide an air jacket around the antenna elements
that is roughly a tenth wavelength in diameter (and from the tips).

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC
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Old October 29th 03, 05:29 AM
Wayne Shanks
 
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Will Reeve wrote:
Hi,

I have an interesting project! I am using a RF receiver device which has a
50 Ohm RF input. I want to use a PCB printed antenna on FR4 board, not
unusual you say. but I need to pot the whole PCB in resin to make it
waterproof. The receiver only needs to work when floating on water! Has
anyone any experience in PCB antenna who would be so kind to comment on the
effects, and possible actions to counter any effects, of the potting. The
resin is much like araldite.



Any thoughts much appreciated.



Will




The potting compound will act as a dielectric load. My bet is that the
dielectric constant will be about 3. Your antenna will have to shrink.
If you know the dielectric properties of the potting compound, and
your antenna is simple, then I might be able to run a simulation (and
optimization) for you with IE3D.... I work with 900 MHz antennas on FR4
every day

Wayne Shanks
Senior RF and Antenna Engineer, Matrics Inc.

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Old October 29th 03, 06:06 AM
Roy Lewallen
 
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If the antenna is in close proximity to water, the water's dielectric
constant of about 80 will have a profound effect, as will its very high
loss.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Wayne Shanks wrote:
Will Reeve wrote:

Hi,

I have an interesting project! I am using a RF receiver device which
has a
50 Ohm RF input. I want to use a PCB printed antenna on FR4 board, not
unusual you say. but I need to pot the whole PCB in resin to make it
waterproof. The receiver only needs to work when floating on water! Has
anyone any experience in PCB antenna who would be so kind to comment
on the
effects, and possible actions to counter any effects, of the potting. The
resin is much like araldite.



Any thoughts much appreciated.



Will




The potting compound will act as a dielectric load. My bet is that the
dielectric constant will be about 3. Your antenna will have to shrink.
If you know the dielectric properties of the potting compound, and your
antenna is simple, then I might be able to run a simulation (and
optimization) for you with IE3D.... I work with 900 MHz antennas on FR4
every day

Wayne Shanks
Senior RF and Antenna Engineer, Matrics Inc.


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Old November 3rd 03, 06:00 PM
Marc H.Popek
 
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Default

www.fwt.niat.net

This dielectric embedded antennas are smaller than naturally occurs and yet
have a net gain


"Roy Lewallen" wrote in message
...
If the antenna is in close proximity to water, the water's dielectric
constant of about 80 will have a profound effect, as will its very high
loss.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Wayne Shanks wrote:
Will Reeve wrote:

Hi,

I have an interesting project! I am using a RF receiver device which
has a
50 Ohm RF input. I want to use a PCB printed antenna on FR4 board, not
unusual you say. but I need to pot the whole PCB in resin to make it
waterproof. The receiver only needs to work when floating on water! Has
anyone any experience in PCB antenna who would be so kind to comment
on the
effects, and possible actions to counter any effects, of the potting.

The
resin is much like araldite.



Any thoughts much appreciated.



Will




The potting compound will act as a dielectric load. My bet is that the
dielectric constant will be about 3. Your antenna will have to shrink.
If you know the dielectric properties of the potting compound, and your
antenna is simple, then I might be able to run a simulation (and
optimization) for you with IE3D.... I work with 900 MHz antennas on FR4
every day

Wayne Shanks
Senior RF and Antenna Engineer, Matrics Inc.






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Old November 3rd 03, 08:29 PM
Richard Clark
 
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On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 17:00:58 GMT, "Marc H.Popek"
wrote:

www.fwt.niat.net

This dielectric embedded antennas are smaller than naturally occurs and yet
have a net gain


Hi Marc,

Interesting sentence construction.

A cogent question would reveal some perspective: How much would your
13dBi dielectric embedded antennas for TV Channel 2 weigh?

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC
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Old November 3rd 03, 10:40 PM
Dave VanHorn
 
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Default


"Marc H.Popek" wrote in message
...
www.fwt.niat.net

This dielectric embedded antennas are smaller than naturally occurs and

yet
have a net gain


More correctly, they CLAIM a gain, relative to isotropic.

If the antenna is smaller than a free space antenna, then it looses capture
area.
I would be very interested to know how they recoup that.
I suspect these antennas might need some power to drive an on-board
amplifier, which means that their gain claim is bogus, and what they aren't
telling you is that the noise floor comes up also.

TANSTAAFL.


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Old November 3rd 03, 11:02 PM
Richard Clark
 
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Default

On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 16:40:59 -0500, "Dave VanHorn"
wrote:


"Marc H.Popek" wrote in message
...
www.fwt.niat.net

This dielectric embedded antennas are smaller than naturally occurs and

yet
have a net gain


More correctly, they CLAIM a gain, relative to isotropic.


They? HE (the CTO in fact). American business has a recent history
of clown elevation.


If the antenna is smaller than a free space antenna, then it looses capture
area.


Capture area is hardly an issue for even the full size antennas they
replace.

I would be very interested to know how they recoup that.
I suspect these antennas might need some power to drive an on-board
amplifier, which means that their gain claim is bogus, and what they aren't
telling you is that the noise floor comes up also.

TANSTAAFL.

Hi Dave,

What is more to the matter is unstated issues of efficiency. I will
let the claims of 8 fold boons pass (which is marketese from the world
of ENRON). Compare these "advantages" of reclaimed volume to the
unanswered query of weight (no claims about density are there?).

Leftover halloween candy.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC
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Old November 4th 03, 12:54 AM
Don Lancaster
 
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Richard Clark wrote:

On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 17:00:58 GMT, "Marc H.Popek"
wrote:

www.fwt.niat.net

This dielectric embedded antennas are smaller than naturally occurs and yet
have a net gain


Hi Marc,

Interesting sentence construction.

A cogent question would reveal some perspective: How much would your
13dBi dielectric embedded antennas for TV Channel 2 weigh?

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC


A lot less than they would for the 160 meter ham band.

--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
voice: (928)428-4073 email: fax 847-574-1462

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at
http://www.tinaja.com
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Old November 4th 03, 02:00 AM
Reg Edwards
 
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Default

Funnily enough, there is no decrease in capture area with simple, very small
antennas. This is a difficult conception to get people's brains around.

There is only a (but important) decrease in efficiency because radiation
resistance decreases faster than the loss resistances incurred in matching
the antenna to the receiver. Matching loss resistance increases as the
antenna dimensions become smaller.

For example, think in terms of the Q and loss resistance of the high
inductance coil needed in an antenna tuner.



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