Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Old April 21st 12, 08:24 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Oct 2009
Posts: 707
Default Autoelectronic emission

Most of you wrote that your antennas work below the voltage necessary to
start the electron emission.

But in reality the emission take place at all voltages.

" Attempts to understand autoelectronic emission included plotting
experimental current-voltage (i - V) data in different ways, to look for a
straight-line relationship. Current increased with voltage more rapidly than
linearly, but plots of type (log(i) vs. V) were not straight"

"A breakthrough came when Lauritsen[13] (and Oppenheimer independently[14])
found that plots of type (log(i) vs. 1/V) yielded good straight lines. This
result, published by Millikan and Lauritsen[13] in early 1928, was known to
Fowler and Nordheim.
Oppenheimer had predicted[14] that the field-induced tunneling of electrons
from atoms (the effect now called field ionization) would have this i(V)
dependence, had found this dependence in the published experimental field
emission results of Millikan and Eyring,[10] and proposed that CFE was due
to field-induced tunneling of electrons from atomic-like orbitals in surface
metal atoms. From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_electron_emission

Electrons escape from each charged body. Your antennas emit electrons and
for this reason they need the sink of electrons (the earth/chassis/
counterpoise).

Best Regards,

S*


  #2   Report Post  
Old April 21st 12, 08:49 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Dec 2008
Posts: 375
Default Autoelectronic emission

Szczepan Bialek wrote:
Electrons escape from each charged body. Your antennas emit electrons and
for this reason they need the sink of electrons (the earth/chassis/
counterpoise).


Of course not.
Not only is this effect too small to be measured at voltages common
on a transmitter antenna, the voltage is also AC so these effects will
cancel out along the cycle of the AC wave. The net result will be zero.
There can only be a net current when there is a (large) DC voltage on
the charged body, which is not the case on a transmitter antenna.
  #3   Report Post  
Old April 21st 12, 09:47 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,336
Default Autoelectronic emission

On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 09:24:03 +0200, "Szczepan Bialek"
wrote:

Electrons escape from each charged body. Your antennas emit electrons and
for this reason they need the sink of electrons (the earth/chassis/
counterpoise).


Great theory. If antennas emitted electrons, and electrons have mass,
we could then build a rotating antenna powered by the electron
belching reaction mass. Put the antenna on a hub, and watch the
electron emissions turn the antenna as they fly off the antenna at
ummm... the speed of light. A few hundred watts of power should be
more than enough to move the antenna around. Yeah, great physics you
have there.

Hint: How fast do electrons travel in a wire?
No, it's not the speed of light. It's called electron drift velocity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drift_velocity
http://www.jensign.com/JavaScience/www/cuwire/cuwire.html
For the above example, it takes about 12 hours for an electron to
travel 1 meter in a copper wire. Not exactly at RF speeds.

Keep trying. Eventually, you'll get something correct.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #4   Report Post  
Old April 21st 12, 04:51 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Oct 2009
Posts: 707
Default Autoelectronic emission


"Jeff Liebermann" napisal w wiadomosci
...
On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 09:24:03 +0200, "Szczepan Bialek"
wrote:

Electrons escape from each charged body. Your antennas emit electrons and
for this reason they need the sink of electrons (the earth/chassis/
counterpoise).


Great theory. If antennas emitted electrons, and electrons have mass,
we could then build a rotating antenna powered by the electron
belching reaction mass. Put the antenna on a hub, and watch the
electron emissions turn the antenna as they fly off the antenna at
ummm... the speed of light. A few hundred watts of power should be
more than enough to move the antenna around. Yeah, great physics you
have there.

Hint: How fast do electrons travel in a wire?
No, it's not the speed of light. It's called electron drift velocity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drift_velocity
http://www.jensign.com/JavaScience/www/cuwire/cuwire.html
For the above example, it takes about 12 hours for an electron to
travel 1 meter in a copper wire. Not exactly at RF speeds.


The air molecules travel with the speed of the wind. But they oscillate if
there is the sound source.
The speed of sound and the speed the wind are the different things.

The same is with the electron waves speed and the electron beam (drift)
speed.


Keep trying. Eventually, you'll get something correct.
S*


  #5   Report Post  
Old April 21st 12, 05:05 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Oct 2009
Posts: 707
Default Autoelectronic emission


"Jeff" napisal w wiadomosci
...
On 21/04/2012 08:24, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
Most of you wrote that your antennas work below the voltage necessary to
start the electron emission.

But in reality the emission take place at all voltages.


When that happens at zero or low voltages the electrons are call Beta
radiation!!


Yes.
When they escape at low voltages we call it "discharging".
Charge your antenna and measure the dicharging time.

" Attempts to understand autoelectronic emission included plotting
experimental current-voltage (i - V) data in different ways, to look for
a
straight-line relationship. Current increased with voltage more rapidly
than
linearly, but plots of type (log(i) vs. V) were not straight"

"A breakthrough came when Lauritsen[13] (and Oppenheimer
independently[14])
found that plots of type (log(i) vs. 1/V) yielded good straight lines.
This
result, published by Millikan and Lauritsen[13] in early 1928, was known
to
Fowler and Nordheim.
Oppenheimer had predicted[14] that the field-induced tunneling of
electrons
from atoms (the effect now called field ionization) would have this i(V)
dependence, had found this dependence in the published experimental field
emission results of Millikan and Eyring,[10] and proposed that CFE was
due
to field-induced tunneling of electrons from atomic-like orbitals in
surface
metal atoms. From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_electron_emission

Electrons escape from each charged body. Your antennas emit electrons and
for this reason they need the sink of electrons (the earth/chassis/
counterpoise).

Best Regards,

S*


Nothing in what you quoted says that electrons are produced at "all
voltages". A straight line does not infer that the line stars from zero!!
There is a threshold voltage below which no emissions take place,


Your fancy is great. Congratulation.

this voltage is the intercept on the voltage axis for the straight line
thaled about.


So the "dicharging" do not exsists?
S*




  #6   Report Post  
Old April 21st 12, 05:12 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Oct 2009
Posts: 707
Default Autoelectronic emission


"Rob" napisal w wiadomosci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
Electrons escape from each charged body. Your antennas emit electrons and
for this reason they need the sink of electrons (the earth/chassis/
counterpoise).


Of course not.
Not only is this effect too small to be measured at voltages common
on a transmitter antenna, the voltage is also AC so these effects will
cancel out along the cycle of the AC wave. The net result will be zero.


No. "Once liberated, electrons are strongly repelled by the high electric
field near the electrode during negative voltage peaks from the oscillating
HV output "

There can only be a net current when there is a (large) DC voltage on
the charged body, which is not the case on a transmitter antenna.


In a transmitter antenna is the "oscillatory flow of electrons" with the net
current from the earth into air.
S*



  #7   Report Post  
Old April 21st 12, 06:50 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,898
Default Autoelectronic emission

Szczepan Bialek wrote:
Most of you wrote that your antennas work below the voltage necessary to
start the electron emission.

But in reality the emission take place at all voltages.


Wrong.

" Attempts to understand autoelectronic emission included plotting
experimental current-voltage (i - V) data in different ways, to look for a
straight-line relationship. Current increased with voltage more rapidly than
linearly, but plots of type (log(i) vs. V) were not straight"

"A breakthrough came when Lauritsen[13] (and Oppenheimer independently[14])
found that plots of type (log(i) vs. 1/V) yielded good straight lines. This
result, published by Millikan and Lauritsen[13] in early 1928, was known to
Fowler and Nordheim.
Oppenheimer had predicted[14] that the field-induced tunneling of electrons
from atoms (the effect now called field ionization) would have this i(V)
dependence, had found this dependence in the published experimental field
emission results of Millikan and Eyring,[10] and proposed that CFE was due
to field-induced tunneling of electrons from atomic-like orbitals in surface
metal atoms. From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_electron_emission


I see you didn't bother to include the part about it being dependant on
the work function, which means there is a minimum energy required.

Or more likely you just don't understand this anymore than you understand
anything else.

Electrons escape from each charged body. Your antennas emit electrons and
for this reason they need the sink of electrons (the earth/chassis/
counterpoise).


Wrong.

Best Regards,


You are an ignorant, babbling, idiot.

  #8   Report Post  
Old April 21st 12, 06:54 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,898
Default Autoelectronic emission

Szczepan Bialek wrote:


When that happens at zero or low voltages the electrons are call Beta
radiation!!


Yes.


Which is radioactive decay and has nothing to do with ANYTHING you have
been babbling about.

When they escape at low voltages we call it "discharging".
Charge your antenna and measure the dicharging time.


That would be quite impossible.

snip babble

Nothing in what you quoted says that electrons are produced at "all
voltages". A straight line does not infer that the line stars from zero!!
There is a threshold voltage below which no emissions take place,


Your fancy is great. Congratulation.


He is correct and the minimum energy is determined by the work function,
yet another concept that totally escapes your understanding.

this voltage is the intercept on the voltage axis for the straight line
thaled about.


So the "dicharging" do not exsists?


Not in any way that you think happens because you are an ignorant idiot.



  #9   Report Post  
Old April 21st 12, 06:56 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,898
Default Autoelectronic emission

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

The air molecules travel with the speed of the wind. But they oscillate if
there is the sound source.
The speed of sound and the speed the wind are the different things.

The same is with the electron waves speed and the electron beam (drift)
speed.


Nope, this is babbling nonsense and disproven long ago.


  #10   Report Post  
Old April 21st 12, 11:07 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,336
Default Autoelectronic emission

On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 17:51:31 +0200, "Szczepan Bialek"
wrote:


"Jeff Liebermann" napisal w wiadomosci
.. .
On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 09:24:03 +0200, "Szczepan Bialek"
wrote:

Electrons escape from each charged body. Your antennas emit electrons and
for this reason they need the sink of electrons (the earth/chassis/
counterpoise).


Great theory. If antennas emitted electrons, and electrons have mass,
we could then build a rotating antenna powered by the electron
belching reaction mass. Put the antenna on a hub, and watch the
electron emissions turn the antenna as they fly off the antenna at
ummm... the speed of light. A few hundred watts of power should be
more than enough to move the antenna around. Yeah, great physics you
have there.

Hint: How fast do electrons travel in a wire?
No, it's not the speed of light. It's called electron drift velocity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drift_velocity
http://www.jensign.com/JavaScience/www/cuwire/cuwire.html
For the above example, it takes about 12 hours for an electron to
travel 1 meter in a copper wire. Not exactly at RF speeds.


The air molecules travel with the speed of the wind. But they oscillate if
there is the sound source.
The speed of sound and the speed the wind are the different things.


Please let me know how far you can communicate using air molecules.
There is a momentum transfer when moving air, but it dissipates rather
quickly. Comparing electron dynamics with pneumatics just doesn't
work.[1]

The same is with the electron waves speed and the electron beam (drift)
speed.


Same as what? There is no such thing as an electron wave. There are
electron beams, and radio waves, with very little overlap.

If think that electrons fly off the ends of an antenna, there should
be a way to directly detect those electrons. For example, a CRT has a
phosphor screen that lights up when hit by electrons from the electron
gun. If your mythical electrons are really there, you should also be
able to place a phosphor screen near a transmitting antenna, and have
it light up.

Also, if your electrons are leaving the antenna, and flying off into
the ether, there should be a rather large positive charge left on the
antenna. If you then claim that the transmitter is replacing the
electrons as fast as they are radiated, then the positive charge
should reside in the transmitter. If you then claim that the local
electric utility is supplying electrons to the transmitter, then the
utility generating station must have a huge positive charge.

Keep trying. Eventually, you'll get something correct.
S*


You're not trying hard enough. Open book, insert face, absorb
everything, and verify what you've learned using real world examples
and numerical calculations. If your theory of the moment can't be
reduced to real (i.e. non-quantum) physics, with real calculations,
and real experimental verification, it's probably wrong.


[1] Maybe this will help. It's not a perfect analogy, but it's close
enough. Find a billiard table and line up about 10 balls in a line
and as close together as possible. Use another ball to hit one end of
the line, and time how long it takes between the first impact, and
when the ball at the end starts to move. Now, cover the same distance
with just the cue ball, and without the line of billiard balls. Note
how it take MUCH longer for just the cue ball to travel the same
distance. The line of billiard balls represents the atoms in a
conductor. You'll get electron transport at almost the speed of light
in such a situation. The cue ball alone represents the electron drift
in the same conductor. If the cue ball could be made to travel at the
same speed as it did through the line of billard balls, the felt on
the billiard table would probably show a deep burn mark.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Carbon Emission Regulations to be Used as Censorship Tool Chas. Chan Shortwave 0 July 12th 09 01:24 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:03 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 RadioBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Radio"

 

Copyright © 2017