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Old April 10th 12, 09:22 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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Default The earth

In 1909 Marconi wrote:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf

"The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."

It is still true?
S*





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Old April 10th 12, 10:56 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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Default The earth

On 4/10/2012 3:22 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
In 1909 Marconi wrote:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf

"The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."

It is still true?
S*


Pilots have no trouble using radios at 45,000 ft.
I've never yet seen one require a ground wire.

"Houston, Tranquility Base here. The Eagle has landed,
and we are talking to you via radio, even though we
are not connected to earth, and Marconi said it would
lead to celestial mayhem if we were to even try."

Houston, I we have a problem...




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Old April 10th 12, 11:37 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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Default The earth

On 04/10/2012 04:22 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
In 1909 Marconi wrote:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf

"The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."

It is still true?
S*


It obviously never was true. My guess is that the reasoning at the time
stemmed from a lack of understanding of far-field electromagnetic wave
propagation (and electromagnetics in general), failure to construct
apparati of sufficient sensitivity due to technology limitations, and
inefficient antenna designs (relative to using the earth as a
counterpoise.) I also think Nikola Tesla failed to grasp these concepts
as well. Sincerely, and 73s from N4GGO,

--
J. B. Wood e-mail:
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Old April 10th 12, 11:43 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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Default The earth

Szczepan Bialek wrote:
In 1909 Marconi wrote:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf

"The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."

It is still true?
S*


I hope you have your GSM phone firmly connected to earth, or it would
operate in violation of Marconi's observations.
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Old April 10th 12, 03:59 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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Default The earth

In the back of the plane there is a small bucket of soil with a ground
rod stuck in it. At each stop they check to make sure the soil is
damp enough to provide sufficient conductivity. On occasion a
little salt is added. The ground rod is connected to the frame of
the plane using an MFJ Artificial Ground to further ensure that
all is well. As well, the bucket is grounded to prevent any
possible cathodic action from interfering with the system.
:-)

Irv VE6BP


"NM5K" wrote in message
...
On 4/10/2012 3:22 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
In 1909 Marconi wrote:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf

"The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."

It is still true?
S*


Pilots have no trouble using radios at 45,000 ft.
I've never yet seen one require a ground wire.

"Houston, Tranquility Base here. The Eagle has landed,
and we are talking to you via radio, even though we
are not connected to earth, and Marconi said it would
lead to celestial mayhem if we were to even try."

Houston, I we have a problem...









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Old April 10th 12, 04:16 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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Default The earth


"Irv Finkleman" napisał w wiadomości
...
In the back of the plane there is a small bucket of soil with a ground
rod stuck in it. At each stop they check to make sure the soil is
damp enough to provide sufficient conductivity. On occasion a
little salt is added. The ground rod is connected to the frame of
the plane using an MFJ Artificial Ground to further ensure that
all is well. As well, the bucket is grounded to prevent any
possible cathodic action from interfering with the system.
:-)


Marconi added:
"By "connected to earth" I do not necessarily mean an ordinary metallic
connection as used for ordinary wire telegraphs.
The earth wire may have a condenser in series with it, or it may be
connected to what is really equivalent, a capacity area placed close to the
surface
of the ground (Fig. 4).
It is now perfectly well known that a condenser, if large enough, does not
prevent the passage of high frequency oscillations, and therefore in these
cases
the earth is for all practical purposes connected to the antennae."

So the plane is "connected to earth".
Is Marconi right?
S*

Irv VE6BP


"NM5K" wrote in message
...
On 4/10/2012 3:22 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
In 1909 Marconi wrote:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf

"The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."

It is still true?
S*


Pilots have no trouble using radios at 45,000 ft.
I've never yet seen one require a ground wire.


Chassis = the ground.
Is it true?
S*


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Old April 10th 12, 04:48 PM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob[_8_] View Post
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
In 1909 Marconi wrote:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf

"The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."

It is still true?
S*


I hope you have your GSM phone firmly connected to earth, or it would
operate in violation of Marconi's observations.
A mobile device uses the user as the counterpoise.
A vehicle is not physically bonded to the earth - yet still works.
A Mag Mount antenna is not physically bonded to the vehicle body - hence it uses a loop radio to antenna antenna to radio and it changes the way the coax interacts with the antenna.
If the radio is bonded to the body and the antenna is bonded to the body the body is capacitive. Turns the whole body into one big counterpoise.

Maybe this is the reason why a 102 inch whip works better then a mag mount antenna or one of those silly dual sticks on a truckers mirrors...
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Old April 10th 12, 04:59 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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Default The earth

Szczepan Bialek wrote:
In 1909 Marconi wrote:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf

"The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."

It is still true?
S*


It was NEVER true; Marconi was wrong.

Here's a news flash for you:

A lot has been learned about radio since Marconi.

The radios on Pioneer 10 worked just fine 12,000,000,000 km from the Earth.


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Old April 10th 12, 05:43 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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Default The earth



"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...


"Irv Finkleman" napisał w wiadomości
...
In the back of the plane there is a small bucket of soil with a ground
rod stuck in it. At each stop they check to make sure the soil is
damp enough to provide sufficient conductivity. On occasion a
little salt is added. The ground rod is connected to the frame of
the plane using an MFJ Artificial Ground to further ensure that
all is well. As well, the bucket is grounded to prevent any
possible cathodic action from interfering with the system.
:-)


Marconi added:
"By "connected to earth" I do not necessarily mean an ordinary metallic
connection as used for ordinary wire telegraphs.
The earth wire may have a condenser in series with it, or it may be
connected to what is really equivalent, a capacity area placed close to the
surface
of the ground (Fig. 4).
It is now perfectly well known that a condenser, if large enough, does not
prevent the passage of high frequency oscillations, and therefore in these
cases
the earth is for all practical purposes connected to the antennae."

So the plane is "connected to earth".
Is Marconi right?
S*

Irv VE6BP


"NM5K" wrote in message
...
On 4/10/2012 3:22 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
In 1909 Marconi wrote:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf

"The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."

It is still true?
S*


Pilots have no trouble using radios at 45,000 ft.
I've never yet seen one require a ground wire.


Chassis = the ground.
Is it true?
S*
**********************
No. Spacecraft have no connection to ground, and it is possible to feed
balanced antennas in a fashion that there is no ground connection.

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Old April 10th 12, 06:50 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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Default The earth


"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
.. .
In 1909 Marconi wrote:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf

"The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."

It is still true?
S*


Such a question would only be asked by someone who is unaware of radio
communications by handhelds or by radios in vehicles, aircraft or
spacecraft. In other words, no sentient person should ask it.

I'm plonking this troll, this goon, this rimless zero.

Of course, you can play with him if you wish ... but serious discourse? Ha!

"Sal"


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