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#1
April 30th 10, 10:14 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
 Peter external usenet poster Posts: 26

I'm preparing an article for a local radio club magazine about the nature of
mathematical and general descriptive treatment of the subject it is a
challenge to make it clear and consistent.
I know this group has some expertise on this subject and would appreciate
any constructive comment and suggestions regarding the attached article.

Regards Peter VK6YSF

#2
April 30th 10, 01:12 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
 Cecil Moore external usenet poster Posts: 572

On Apr 30, 4:14*am, "Peter" wrote:
I know this group has some expertise on this subject and would appreciate
any constructive comment and suggestions regarding the attached article.

The two-dimensional Fig. 2-2 graph is confusing in that it could be
inferred that the E and H fields are 90 degrees out of phase in time
and are never zero at the same time. The E and H fields are in phase
in time as demonstrated by Fig. 2-4.
--
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com
 #3   April 30th 10, 03:00 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna What exactly is radio On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 05:12:38 -0700 (PDT), Cecil Moore wrote: On Apr 30, 4:14*am, "Peter" wrote: I know this group has some expertise on this subject and would appreciate any constructive comment and suggestions regarding the attached article. The two-dimensional Fig. 2-2 graph is confusing in that it could be inferred that the E and H fields are 90 degrees out of phase in time and are never zero at the same time. The E and H fields are in phase in time as demonstrated by Fig. 2-4. Hmmm. I'm no expert, but I thought they were 90 degrees out of phase. It's the rapidly changing H field that creates the E field and vica versa. If you look closely, Fig 2-4 also shows them 90 degrees out of phase. To the OP, heat is not electromagnetic radiation. Light and x-rays are. You can heat something by pointing em radiation at it and something that is hot gives off infra-red em radiation, but heat itself is not em radiation. Pat
#4
April 30th 10, 05:05 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
 Art Unwin external usenet poster Posts: 1,339

On Apr 30, 9:00*am, wrote:
On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 05:12:38 -0700 (PDT), Cecil Moore

wrote:
On Apr 30, 4:14*am, "Peter" wrote:
I know this group has some expertise on this subject and would appreciate
any constructive comment and suggestions regarding the attached article.

The two-dimensional Fig. 2-2 graph is confusing in that it could be
inferred that the E and H fields are 90 degrees out of phase in time
and are never zero at the same time. The E and H fields are in phase
in time as demonstrated by Fig. 2-4.

Hmmm. *I'm no expert, but I thought they were 90 degrees out of phase.
It's the rapidly changing H field that creates the E field and vica
versa. *If you look closely, Fig 2-4 also shows them 90 degrees out of
phase.

To the OP, heat is not electromagnetic radiation. *Light and x-rays
are. *You can heat something by pointing em radiation at it and
something that is hot gives off infra-red em radiation, but heat
itself is not em radiation. *

Pat

It is accepted that radiation is "an acceleration that generates or
transfers a charge ". This is an empty statement if one cannot explain
the mechanics of the operation.Certainly you have to determine what
you have in hand to provide this action, and at the present time there
is no agreement whether it is a wave flow of a constituent, what ever
that may be, or a particle.
Therefore one has to determine exactly what we are going to accelerate
and how we are going to avoid the effects of gravity since radiation
does not follow the action of a descending lob.
This as yet has not been determined, so we cannot begin to
understand! For me I see a wave as being an adjective and a particle
as a noun.
But a word of warning,physicists do not follow the same rules of the
general public, so if you have a day or two to spare get a physicist
to explain exactly what a 'wave' is and how does it fit with the
required straight line accelerating trajectory that opposes gravity!
You just cannot explain "radio" until you determine what you are
accelerating and how.
Regards
Art

#5
April 30th 10, 06:59 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
 Richard Clark external usenet poster Posts: 2,951

On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 17:14:28 +0800, "Peter" wrote:

While this is a non
mathematical and general descriptive treatment of the subject it is a
challenge to make it clear and consistent.

Hi Peter,

Yes, your treatment does tend to veer towards the exotic topics.

Stick to the basics. You have a wonderful resource that you point to
in the Navy training manuals. As a former instructor for the Navy's
Electronic Technician A and C schools, I can attest this material
manages the balance between technical and theoretical.

You may notice that the first manual introduces the concept of
photons, but no where goes into "duality." And for good reason, it
doesn't matter one whit. When you raise this concept, the weaker
in competition with solar radiation (light, largely). They would
probably miss the vast difference in propagation speed.

Solar radiation, of course, travels at the speed of light. This is
why it is called radiation. Solar particles (the erroneous dual to
the photon) travels at less than 1% of the speed of light. If any of
your audience were to simply consider their final's tubes, within that
glass enclosure, electrons travel at 90% of the speed of light.
Dribble a little air into that vacuum tube, and the speed of any
electron would plummet to inches per hour.

So, what value is there in opening that can of worms?

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC
#6
April 30th 10, 08:52 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
 Art Unwin external usenet poster Posts: 1,339

On Apr 30, 12:59*pm, Richard Clark wrote:
On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 17:14:28 +0800, "Peter" wrote:
While this is a non
mathematical and general descriptive treatment of the subject it is a
challenge to make it clear and consistent.

Hi Peter,

Yes, your treatment does tend to veer towards the exotic topics.

Stick to the basics. *You have a wonderful resource that you point to
in the Navy training manuals. *As a former instructor for the Navy's
Electronic Technician A and C schools, I can attest this material
manages the balance between technical and theoretical.

You may notice that the first manual introduces the concept of
photons, but no where goes into "duality." *And for good reason, it
doesn't matter one whit. *When you raise this concept, the weaker
in competition with solar radiation (light, largely). *They would
probably miss the vast difference in propagation speed.

Solar radiation, of course, travels at the speed of light. *This is
why it is called radiation. *Solar particles (the erroneous dual to
the photon) travels at less than 1% of the speed of light. *If any of
your audience were to simply consider their final's tubes, within that
glass enclosure, electrons travel at 90% of the speed of light.
Dribble a little air into that vacuum tube, and the speed of any
electron would plummet to inches per hour.

So, what value is there in opening that can of worms?

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Obviously a problem here! Quantum mechanics states radio rotates
around particles and classical physics revolves about waves. If
radiation is an acceleration of charge then it is pivotable that one
decides what is being accelerated in the first place!
If Einstein is correct that the speed of light is not to be exceeded
then one has to decide whether a wave is lighter than the smallest
particle possible.
Waves do have length a physicist would say where as a particle can be
a point! How we get straight line trajectory while gravity is present
is easily solved. Pysicists have now removed gravity from the Standard
Model to get over that problem.The Navy on the other hand ignores the
duallity question.
#8
April 30th 10, 11:05 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
 Owen Duffy external usenet poster Posts: 1,169

Roy Lewallen wrote in
:

The time phase angle between E and H is determined by the medium the
wave is propagating through. The (complex) ratio of E to H is called
the intrinsic impedance of the medium, and for lossless media, it's
always a purely real number (about 377 ohms for air or free space),
meaning that E and H are in phase. Only when propagating through a
lossy medium are E and H not in time phase, and then the maximum phase
difference is always less than 45 degrees.

If I understand this correctly, a field arrangement with E and H in time
and space quadrature is not propagating energy, but rather energy
exchange.

In very close to an antenna, the time phase relationship of E and H may
be close to quadrature due to the inductive or reactive field close to
the conductors, but that changes eventually to 'in-phase' in the far
radiation field in free space (as the induction field components decay
more quickly with distance than the radiation field components).

If that is the case, the complex value of E/H varies from very close to
the far field. I have seen plots of E/H vs distance that treated E/H as a
real number, but I suspect that it is more complex when all of the
components of E and H are included.

Thoughts?

Owen
#9
May 1st 10, 12:45 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
 Art Unwin external usenet poster Posts: 1,339

On Apr 30, 5:05*pm, Owen Duffy wrote:
Roy Lewallen wrote om:

The time phase angle between E and H is determined by the medium the
wave is propagating through. The (complex) ratio of E to H is called
the intrinsic impedance of the medium, and for lossless media, it's
always a purely real number (about 377 ohms for air or free space),
meaning that E and H are in phase. Only when propagating through a
lossy medium are E and H not in time phase, and then the maximum phase
difference is always less than 45 degrees.

If I understand this correctly, a field arrangement with E and H in time
and space quadrature is not propagating energy, but rather energy
exchange.

In very close to an antenna, the time phase relationship of E and H may
be close to quadrature due to the inductive or reactive field close to
the conductors, but that changes eventually to 'in-phase' in the far
radiation field in free space (as the induction field components decay
more quickly with distance than the radiation field components).

If that is the case, the complex value of E/H varies from very close to
the far field. I have seen plots of E/H vs distance that treated E/H as a
real number, but I suspect that it is more complex when all of the
components of E and H are included.

Thoughts?

Owen

Owen
By observation the E and H fields can be seen as a tank circuit where
all vectors are accounted for so that
one follows the notion that energy cannot be created or destroyed plus
the other laws of Newton.
When we stray from that scenario we get into new theories or
imaginations The moment we stray from boundary laws one is coersed
into thinking like somebody of a lesser nature than past masters who
determine phenomina from observation that is matched by known
principles. How on earth can we relate to near fields and far fields
if we haven't decided what the media concists of. My approach was to
stick with the laws of Maxwell which dictates static and dynamic
fields where all forces are accounted for, which shows that gravity
can only be negated by the use of Newton's laws. Thus my foundations
were not built on a layer of sand but what is accepted via Maxwell's
laws. In other words, the laws of Maxwell points to the presence of
particles when dealing with fields and displacements by virtue of the
units used. There are lots of things that exhibit properties of other
materials and thus by observation can be compared to other things in
action, but they should never be considered as one and the same unless
they are matched in their entirety. Particles and waves
have lurched beyond science by considering them to be one and the same
purely by action and not by substance.
If one is going to discuss energy exchange as with inductance and
capacitance to determine relative phase angles , fields etc one cannot
stray from the tank circuit
observations.
Regards
Art
#10
May 1st 10, 03:22 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
 tom external usenet poster Posts: 660

It is accepted that radiation is "an acceleration that generates or
transfers a charge ". This is an empty statement if one cannot explain
the mechanics of the operation.Certainly you have to determine what
you have in hand to provide this action, and at the present time there
is no agreement whether it is a wave flow of a constituent, what ever
that may be, or a particle.
Therefore one has to determine exactly what we are going to accelerate
and how we are going to avoid the effects of gravity since radiation
does not follow the action of a descending lob.
This as yet has not been determined, so we cannot begin to
understand! For me I see a wave as being an adjective and a particle
as a noun.
But a word of warning,physicists do not follow the same rules of the
general public, so if you have a day or two to spare get a physicist
to explain exactly what a 'wave' is and how does it fit with the
required straight line accelerating trajectory that opposes gravity!
You just cannot explain "radio" until you determine what you are
accelerating and how.
Regards
Art

You are really good, Art. How do you keep it up?

You make new and fresh nonsense up with very many of your posts. Not
every one, but you do have to carry on your themes after all.

Still, it's quite an effort you put into it. How do you continue to
make almost no sense? That's really tough. I mean, even random chance
would say you occasionally have to be realistic.

tom
K0TAR

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