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Reg Edwards wrote:
"Cecil Moore" wrote
If forward and reverse waves do not exist separately,
how is it possible for a circulator to separate them?

You forgot to allow TIME into the argument.
The two waves do NOT, and cannot, exist seperately in time.

I'm not sure what your point is. If a laser beam is
aimed at a mirror, do the forward wave and reflected
wave exist separately in time? If we send a forward
wave down a one-second lossless feedline for one second
and turn it off, nothing happens for one second. Then
we receive a reflected wave for one second. Do those
waves not exist separately in time?

The circulator merely divides the STEADY STATE, instantaneous, at the
same time, power in the wave into two parts according to what the
operator, or by design, has set it to do.

The point is that one of those parts has made a round
trip to the load and back as can be proved by observing
ghosting in TV signals.

When the generator is switched off both parts disappear
simultaneously.

Not entirely true. The reflected wave would continue to
exist until the energy in the transmission line is
dissipated.
--
73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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Cecil Moore wrote:
Gene Fuller wrote:
If you refuse to accept standard technical conventions, then there is
little hope of getting others to agree with you.

Gene, have you stopped beating your wife? Your usual ad
hominem attack completely devoid of any technical content
is duly noted.

In a one second long lossless transmission line where the
forward power is 200W and the reflected power is 100W, it
can be proved that the source has supplied 300 joules that
have not been accepted by the load. If those joules are not
contained in the forward and reflected waves, where are they?

Cecil,

I recall that you selectively quote only those parts of messages to
which you disagree. I guess you accepted the remainder of my comments.

You quite clearly said that "steady state" is not really steady. I
challenged that in a straight-forward manner. So what is "ad hominem"
about my message?

ad-hominem

This is a typical trick, Cecil, when you have been caught dealing
nonsense. You ignore the issue and attempt diversion. It won't work
here. The meaning of steady state is not controversial.

/ad-hominem

73,
Gene
W4SZ

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Cecil Moore wrote:
Gene Fuller wrote:
If you refuse to accept standard technical conventions, then there is
little hope of getting others to agree with you.

I am advocating the wave reflection model as explained in:

Johnson's, "Transmission Lines and Networks", 1st Edition

Ramo/Whinnery's, "Fields and Waves in Modern Radio", 2nd Edition

Hecht's, "Optics", 4th Edition

Maxwell's, "Reflections" and "Reflections II"

"The ARRL Antenna Book", 15th Edition

I am also advocating the conservation of energy principle.
I hope that one doesn't need references.

Exactly what is it about the wave reflection model and the
conservation of energy principle with which you disagree?

Cecil,

My only comment was in regard to the definition of steady state. I am
not sure why you directed this list to me. I have three out of the five
references you list, and I have multiple equivalents for the others.

73,
Gene
W4SZ

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Gene Fuller wrote:
You quite clearly said that "steady state" is not really steady.

No I didn't. You either misunderstood or are trying
to set up a straw man.

The meaning of steady state is not controversial.

I never said it was so this is just another one of
your straw men.

--
73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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Gene Fuller wrote:
My only comment was in regard to the definition of steady state.

I doubt that we have different definitions of "steady-state".
I didn't post a definition and I don't recall you posting one.

What I said was that some of the 300 joules existing in the
one second long transmission line during steady-state was
supplied by the source before steady-state was reached,
i.e. during the initial transient state.
--
73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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Hey Cecil,

Can you sum up the problem with conservation of energy that modern RF
textbooks get wrong?

Dan

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Cecil Moore wrote:
Gene Fuller wrote:
You quite clearly said that "steady state" is not really steady.

No I didn't. You either misunderstood or are trying
to set up a straw man.

The meaning of steady state is not controversial.

I never said it was so this is just another one of
your straw men.


Cecil,

Your exact words we

***
Steady-state had a beginning and it will have an end. It cannot be
analyzed without knowing what happened in the beginning and what will
happen in the end. Steady-state is the rug under which you and others
try to sweep the laws of physics including the conservation of energy
principle. I'm doing what I can to call your bluff.
***

This says that steady state depends on something else, namely the
beginning and the end of the steady state condition. That is simply
incorrect. In steady state conditions there is no concept of beginning
or end.

ad hominem

If you don't know the rules, you can't play the game.

/ad hominem

73,
Gene
W4SZ

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wrote:
Can you sum up the problem with conservation of energy that modern RF
textbooks get wrong?

They don't get it wrong - they just don't discuss it at all.
But here is an example of the problem:

http://eznec.com/misc/food_for_thought/

First article - last paragraph. W7EL considers
steady-state conditions while ignoring the previous
transient state conditions. He implies that the
energy in the reflected wave cannot be recovered but
it is indeed dissipated as power in the system after
power is removed from the source. The source supplies
exactly the amount of energy during the transient power
up conditions needed to support the forward and reflected
waves during steady-state. This is easy to prove. But
W7EL's Ivory Tower protects Him from peons like me.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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Gene Fuller wrote:
This says that steady state depends on something else, namely the
beginning and the end of the steady state condition. That is simply
incorrect. In steady state conditions there is no concept of beginning
or end.

A 12VDC battery is sitting there with a 200 amp*hour charge. Are
you asserting that there is no concept of where the 200 amp*hours
came from? Please tell me you are not that stupid.

Consider the one second long transmission line with 200W of forward
power and 100W of reflected power. That requires 300 joules of
energy during steady-state. If the 300 joules was not supplied
during the transient state, then it must have magically appeared
out of thin air in violation of the conservation of energy principle?
Is that what you are trying to tell us?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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The net power flux in the line gets smaller as the reflected wave gets
stronger while maintaining a constant electric field (constant voltage
as in Roy's example). If you can match to the new impedance at the
line input; that is, make the electric fields both stronger, you can
get a larger net power flux even in the presence of some elevated SWR.

See LaTeX formatted math at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Dan_Zimmerman/Sandbox

The flux of stored power in the line, interestingly enough, is a
sinusoidal function of position.

I'm still thinking what to make of it, but I thought I'd post the math
for people to look at (and check, please!!!!)

... I'll be back later.

73,
Dan