Radials -- the same length or not???
 

I'm constructing a vertical antenna and I'm about to start laying radials.

F/O will be 40 through 15 meters. The vertical element will be 26 feet
in height. There will be a remote controlled antenna coupler mounted at
the base. I'm using 18 AWG magnet wire for the radials. The radials
will be short (no options here) but there will be a lot of them. I plan
on about 18" of separation between the radial tips and I have more than
enough radial wire to work with. The radials will be stapled directly
to the outer surface of the planet.

I could cut the radials to be the same length, forming a circular
pattern on the ground. Or, I could vary the lengths to take advantage
of the available land, which would result in a square pattern on the
ground. In either case, the antenna would be in the center of the
radial field. And, in either case, opposing radials would be of the
same length.

The square radial field would allow some of the radials to be longer
which seems desireable. The circular radial field would be, well,
circular..

The circular pattern radials would be about 25' long. The longest of
the square pattern radials would be something like 35' long. (Assuming
my high school geometry isn't as hazy as everything else from that long
ago era...)

The radials are laying on the ground, and non-resonant, does it matter
if they're all the same length? Is the symmetry important? If I go
with a square pattern how careful must I be with the radial lengths? Is
this a measurement to be made with the hairy eyeball or do I need to get
out measuring tools?

I'm inclined to just cover the available ground with as much copper as I
can and call it a day. This would result in a square-ish pattern on the
ground with opposing radials being similar in length. Is this
inclination fraught with peril?
--
73,
Hank

Radials -- the same length or not???
 

I'm inclined to just cover the available ground with as much copper as
I can and call it a day. This would result in a square-ish pattern on
the ground with opposing radials being similar in length. Is this
inclination fraught with peril?


Your inclination is the correct way to go.


Ed K7AAT

Radials -- the same length or not???
 

"Hank Zoeller" wrote in message
...
I'm constructing a vertical antenna and I'm about to start laying radials.

F/O will be 40 through 15 meters. The vertical element will be 26 feet in
height. There will be a remote controlled antenna coupler mounted at the
base. I'm using 18 AWG magnet wire for the radials. The radials will be
short (no options here) but there will be a lot of them. I plan on about
18" of separation between the radial tips and I have more than enough
radial wire to work with. The radials will be stapled directly to the
outer surface of the planet.

--
73,
Hank

Hank,

My understanding of a radial system is it is basically a very conductive
ground. Not so much a counterpoise - you try and make the earth the
counterpoise. Nonetheless, the ground will detune your radials. So, no
matter what length the radial, you have no way of predicting it's resonate
frequency. That will be determined by soil composition and moisture level,
etc. And it will vary from day to day.

I'm not sure, and some one else should chime in, but I am almost certain
that your radials should not be insulated from the ground. Magnet wire is
normally varnished and therefore insulated. Given your plan, chicken wire
would be better, and the cash value of the copper would more than pay for
it.

Jim

KB1NXE

Radials -- the same length or not???
 

Simple rule for (non resonant) radials in or on the ground:
1. Mo' - da better
2. Longer the better.
3. Better to use (insulated) wire on the surface than buried. Just stretch
it out and let the grass grow over.
4. Water before contest or major DX hunting.
5. Forget the above and set it up on the salty beach.

73 Yuri, K3BU


"James Philopena" wrote in message
news:_chYg.404$AR6.22@trndny02...

"Hank Zoeller" wrote in message
...
I'm constructing a vertical antenna and I'm about to start laying
radials.

F/O will be 40 through 15 meters. The vertical element will be 26 feet
in height. There will be a remote controlled antenna coupler mounted at
the base. I'm using 18 AWG magnet wire for the radials. The radials
will be short (no options here) but there will be a lot of them. I plan
on about 18" of separation between the radial tips and I have more than
enough radial wire to work with. The radials will be stapled directly to
the outer surface of the planet.

--
73,
Hank

Hank,

My understanding of a radial system is it is basically a very conductive
ground. Not so much a counterpoise - you try and make the earth the
counterpoise. Nonetheless, the ground will detune your radials. So, no
matter what length the radial, you have no way of predicting it's resonate
frequency. That will be determined by soil composition and moisture
level, etc. And it will vary from day to day.

I'm not sure, and some one else should chime in, but I am almost certain
that your radials should not be insulated from the ground. Magnet wire is
normally varnished and therefore insulated. Given your plan, chicken wire
would be better, and the cash value of the copper would more than pay for
it.

Jim

KB1NXE

Radials -- the same length or not???
 

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 15:18:07 -0600, Hank Zoeller
wrote:

I'm constructing a vertical antenna and I'm about to start laying radials.

F/O will be 40 through 15 meters. The vertical element will be 26 feet
in height. There will be a remote controlled antenna coupler mounted at
the base. I'm using 18 AWG magnet wire for the radials. The radials
will be short (no options here) but there will be a lot of them. I plan
on about 18" of separation between the radial tips and I have more than
enough radial wire to work with. The radials will be stapled directly
to the outer surface of the planet.

I could cut the radials to be the same length, forming a circular
pattern on the ground. Or, I could vary the lengths to take advantage
of the available land, which would result in a square pattern on the
ground. In either case, the antenna would be in the center of the
radial field. And, in either case, opposing radials would be of the
same length.

The square radial field would allow some of the radials to be longer
which seems desireable. The circular radial field would be, well,
circular..

The circular pattern radials would be about 25' long. The longest of
the square pattern radials would be something like 35' long. (Assuming
my high school geometry isn't as hazy as everything else from that long
ago era...)

The radials are laying on the ground, and non-resonant, does it matter
if they're all the same length? Is the symmetry important? If I go
with a square pattern how careful must I be with the radial lengths? Is
this a measurement to be made with the hairy eyeball or do I need to get
out measuring tools?

I'm inclined to just cover the available ground with as much copper as I
can and call it a day. This would result in a square-ish pattern on the
ground with opposing radials being similar in length. Is this
inclination fraught with peril?

Your project has a lot in common with my ongoing 40-160 meter vertical
project. I am curious about what remote tuner you are planning.

John Ferrell W8CCW

Radials -- the same length or not???
 

Yuri Blanarovich wrote:
Simple rule for (non resonant) radials in or on the ground:
1. Mo' - da better
2. Longer the better.
3. Better to use (insulated) wire on the surface than buried. Just stretch
it out and let the grass grow over.
4. Water before contest or major DX hunting.
5. Forget the above and set it up on the salty beach.

All good advice. Well, except for #5. Can't afford beachfront property!
--
73,
HZ

Radials -- the same length or not???
 

John Ferrell wrote:
Your project has a lot in common with my ongoing 40-160 meter vertical
project. I am curious about what remote tuner you are planning.

Hi John,

The coupler is a Harris RF-601.

I suspect the Harris would match this antenna on 80 and maybe even 160
but I have no illusions about getting much radiation out of it on those
bands. My intention is to use in from 40 through 15 meters.

How tall is your antenna going to be? I'd enjoy having an 80 foot
vertical for 160 through 40 but that's just not going to happen. I'm
looking for low visual impact here..
--
73,
HZ

Radials -- the same length or not???
 

James Philopena wrote:
I'm not sure, and some one else should chime in, but I am almost certain
that your radials should not be insulated from the ground. Magnet wire is
normally varnished and therefore insulated. Given your plan, chicken wire
would be better, and the cash value of the copper would more than pay for
it.

Hi Jim,

I'm pretty convinced that magnet wire on the surface is the way to go.
The RF won't have to go through lossy dirt on it's way to the radials
and they'll last for a long time. Chicken wire would rust up pretty fast..

Besides, the magnet wire was nearly free!
--
73,
HZ

Radials -- the same length or not???
 

Ed wrote:
Your inclination is the correct way to go.

Excellent -- with no dissenting votes cast I have started laying copper.

Thanks for your confirmation.
--
73,
HZ

Radials -- the same length or not???
 

How tall is your antenna going to be? I'd enjoy having an 80 foot
vertical for 160 through 40 but that's just not going to happen. I'm
looking for low visual impact here..

How about 60 feet?

http://www.spiderbeam.net/sb/images/...08_18mpole.jpg

My approach, since it's a low band antenna, is to put the black
fiberglass pole at night, goes up just before dusk and down in the
morning... I have the 40 foot version.. I don't know if you're
looking for stealth or just low-profile. I'm not antenna restricted or
anything, but I don't see any reason to make my neighbors look at the
vertical all the time.

Dan

Radials -- the same length or not???
 

Is that pole self-supporting? How do you put it up and how do you take it
down?

wrote in message
ps.com...
How tall is your antenna going to be? I'd enjoy having an 80 foot
vertical for 160 through 40 but that's just not going to happen. I'm
looking for low visual impact here..

How about 60 feet?

http://www.spiderbeam.net/sb/images/...08_18mpole.jpg

My approach, since it's a low band antenna, is to put the black
fiberglass pole at night, goes up just before dusk and down in the
morning... I have the 40 foot version.. I don't know if you're
looking for stealth or just low-profile. I'm not antenna restricted or
anything, but I don't see any reason to make my neighbors look at the
vertical all the time.

Dan

Radials -- the same length or not???
 

On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 21:17:50 -0600, Hank Zoeller
wrote:

John Ferrell wrote:
Your project has a lot in common with my ongoing 40-160 meter vertical
project. I am curious about what remote tuner you are planning.

Hi John,

The coupler is a Harris RF-601.

I suspect the Harris would match this antenna on 80 and maybe even 160
but I have no illusions about getting much radiation out of it on those
bands. My intention is to use in from 40 through 15 meters.

How tall is your antenna going to be? I'd enjoy having an 80 foot
vertical for 160 through 40 but that's just not going to happen. I'm
looking for low visual impact here..
I started with a 28 foot radiator and 3 radials. The focus has been on
the radiator, not the radial system. It has been easy to deal with in
both modeling and testing on 40M. The 40M (at 50') dipole included in
my A3S beam does seem to outperform it. That may simply be due to the
lower angle radiation of the vertical. On 80M the 28' vertical does
not seem worth much compared to a dipole at 45 feet. And the dipole is
resonant and well behaved.

At 160 meters it is tough to feed. Or may be impossible from my
perspective. It models OK, but matching schemes seem to be awkward and
inefficient. My latest idea is to use a vertical wire from the base of
my tower and bend it over at the 45 foot point and then horizontal to
a tree. If it models well, I will put it up and test it. I live in the
country and have several acres to work with.
John Ferrell W8CCW

Radials -- the same length or not???
 

It's telescoping friction fit fiberglass like those fiberglass fishing
poles everyone's using for portable antennas, just much heavier duty.
I just guyed the bottom section of mine (40 inches up) with a few tent
stakes and that's enough to support it in a breeze at least. I'd make
a good base support of some kind if you'd leave it up in the wind, but
I don't. If the WX is bad I take it down. We'll have to see about the
winter, I might want to keep it up in bad winter weather... bad summer
weather always means thunderstorms, and therefore, QRT!

Dan

Is that pole self-supporting? How do you put it up and how do you take it
down?

Radials -- the same length or not???
 

What? Haven't got a buck?
Check out www.TeslaRadio.org
we got some 200 acres of salty marshy QTH with two story building and 40
rhombics for a $1. We are looking for extra hands and brains to help with
restoration and operating.
I just put some more pictures and partial drawing of antenna farm (under
location -maps - site survey).

73 Yuri, K3BU.us


"Hank Zoeller" wrote in message
...
Yuri Blanarovich wrote:
Simple rule for (non resonant) radials in or on the ground:
1. Mo' - da better
2. Longer the better.
3. Better to use (insulated) wire on the surface than buried. Just
stretch it out and let the grass grow over.
4. Water before contest or major DX hunting.
5. Forget the above and set it up on the salty beach.

All good advice. Well, except for #5. Can't afford beachfront property!
--
73,
HZ

Radials -- the same length or not???
 

On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 21:14:55 -0400, "Yuri Blanarovich"
wrote:

What? Haven't got a buck?
Check out www.TeslaRadio.org
we got some 200 acres of salty marshy QTH with two story building and 40
rhombics for a $1. We are looking for extra hands and brains to help with
restoration and operating.
I just put some more pictures and partial drawing of antenna farm (under
location -maps - site survey).

73 Yuri, K3BU.us

Hello Yuri,

Just checked out the Tesla site--veerrry impressive! And congratulations on
founding the Tesla Radio Foundation--Bravo! Tesla was indeed a great contributor
to our art and science, and I agree that he has not had the recognition he
deserved. You are performing a splendid service.

And what a great site for a ham station--the old WOO station! Hope you can put
those rhombics back in operation. I've just committed one of the seven deadly
sins--I'm green with envy!

Walt W2DU

Radials -- the same length or not???
 

Hi Walt,

Thanks for your kind comments. You can change your color to tan, come on
down and catch some sun tan while inspecting the rhombics.
Looks like God is good to me, after all the forced absence from radio and
search for new QTH and place for Tesla, we were rewarded. So far lot of
cleanup and fixing, but the potential and fertile salty grounds for the
antennas are just dream come through.
Recently we had bunch of high tides and flooding, as can be seen from the
pictures, but usually over the winter the tides subside and it is easier to
walk around and do some antenna fixing.
It will be interesting to compare some classics vs. rhombics and how the
modeling reflects the reality.
We are looking for hands and/or brains to join our club, no dues, just sweat
or brain equity to get it rolling.

73 Yuri, K3BU


"Walter Maxwell" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 21:14:55 -0400, "Yuri Blanarovich"

wrote:

What? Haven't got a buck?
Check out www.TeslaRadio.org
we got some 200 acres of salty marshy QTH with two story building and 40
rhombics for a $1. We are looking for extra hands and brains to help with
restoration and operating.
I just put some more pictures and partial drawing of antenna farm (under
location -maps - site survey).

73 Yuri, K3BU.us

Hello Yuri,

Just checked out the Tesla site--veerrry impressive! And congratulations
on
founding the Tesla Radio Foundation--Bravo! Tesla was indeed a great
contributor
to our art and science, and I agree that he has not had the recognition he
deserved. You are performing a splendid service.

And what a great site for a ham station--the old WOO station! Hope you can
put
those rhombics back in operation. I've just committed one of the seven
deadly
sins--I'm green with envy!

Walt W2DU