Real time proof of Poyntings vector
 

"Richard Harrison" wrote in message
...
Jimmie D wrote:
"My first encounter with Gaussian antenna was with microwave relay paths
and "flyswatter" antennas."

We called them periscope systems. Nice because instead of a waveguide
loss, the periscope gave a gain over the dish alone. The reflector at
the tower top has a cupping adjustment to refocus the energy thus
boosting the gain.

When satellite systems appeared, the FCC started to lean on private
microwave users to replace existing periscopes with "high-performance"
dishes at tower tops. Long after we complied, I noticed FAA relay
systems still using periscopes.

Part of the problem with periscopes, I believe, is the common practice
to use tower top reflectoers that are too small, for economy and
performance.

You believe correctly, especially the ones the FAA used.


Part of the would-be illumination is allowed to fall
outside the surface of the reflector. This boosts gain of the periscope
as the outside ring of the illumination is out-of-phase with that in the
center. I don`t know about Gaussian dishes, but maybe they concentrate
in-phase energy in a narrow beam and eliminate the out-of-phase energy.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

Real time proof of Poyntings vector
 

On 7 Jun, 03:23, wrote:
On Jun 6, 6:04 pm, art wrote:

On 6 Jun, 15:57, "Dave" wrote:

But David, you reject the basics of a Gaussian antenna which is why I
have reservations about your logic tho granted others appear to
agree with you, so I want to read up on it for myself.

Shame on his mess...

When reseaching the net I see numorous attempts to
provide a real time proof for it but nothing as factual as the
Gaussian antenna.

What is a "gaussian" antenna as you consider it?
All the hints I've seen so far point to some kind of array with
all elements the same length.
Fed in equilibrium so you say... :/
What makes that special? Sounds like a perverted driven array
to me.. Something anyone with a crayon, or modeling program
could conjer up various versions till the cows come home.
Why would you need to rewrite proven theory to explain a driven
array?
Seems the performance of driven arrays is already fairly well
known. Even fairly perverted ones... :/

So contrary to what you say there is a lot going on
in trying to find a proof for it even tho you at the same time reject
the Gaussian connection.

A proof for what? Gaussian connection to what?
Who is doing all this whole lot of going on? Enquiring
minds wanna know...

After seeing the automatic rejection of

ANY ideas that represent new ideas in the amateur community I am
beginning to wonder if the E/H antennas is a victim of the same
syndrome .

The only ideas that seem to be rejected are the ones that distort
and mangle fairly well known principals.
Yes, I do compare your "gaussian" antenna to be about in
the same league as the E/H antenna because you both use
doo-doo bafflegab to try to "invent" yourselves some kind of new
antenna, which is really just a perverted version of an
existing known antenna.
Your's will actually perform a bit better though, since I
assume the feedline won't do the majority of the radiating,
as is the case with the E/H antenna.
But to me, both of you use what I consider as "doo-doo"
science to try to have some kind of explanation for whatever it
is you are trying to achieve.

I am coming across many papers that suggest that there
is more to radiation than scholars presently believe so it is
natural to me that amateurs would automatically reject any new
aproach by derisive comments such as junk science or similar.

It's not your antenna that is junk science.. It's just a perverted
driven array as far as I can tell.
It's the bafflegab you come up with to give it some kind of
divine level of performance that is junk science..
Just the way you constantly tweak the usual application of the
word "efficiency" is enough to scare many away.
And this "equilibrium" jibber jabber... Wouldn't it be easier to say
they are all fed in phase? Although some of our roving reporters
say you aren't actually feeding all the elements, in phase or not..
Seems to vary from day to day according to what kind of feedback
you get from the previous days posts..
I still wonder why in the heck you care what anyone here thinks
anyway.. I would just build the silly thing if it means that much
to you.
MK

I suppose a request for help is in order to respond in a fair way
to this particular posting. The poster is complaining that I have
only give hints with respect to this antenna. Harrison says the same.
Others say the Poynting vector does not have a need a "proof"
Another knows enough so as to say that it has already been invented
but refuses to amplify. Also one states that the computor programs
prove there is nothing new. Another states that there must be coupling
of some sort what ever he was trying to say. Another questions what
is new when all elements in the array are resonant. Another says
that it is really a messed up Yagi. Another advocates that elements
should be put in line. On top of that many question the meaning
of the word " equilibrium. What on earth can one do to placate
the baying of the wolves and the procedure back to infancy.
Are these people credible in their comments? Is the definition
not clear enough that it is to be requested time and time again?
What is it that the amateur radio community really want and is
the knoweledge base shown on this newsgroup a reflection of the
amateur
radio co0mmunity as a whole. I invite anybody to respond to this
poster
to give him some satisfaction as to what the ham community is wanting
to know.
Please provide a sample response on how one should reply to the many
statements
and questions provided. Should I go thru the whole scenario of
describing
the underlying basics of this antenna when I know some cannot or want
to read
postings other than their own. Lots of the experts state they do
not understand this or that but do know enough that the whole thing
is rediculous. Is ham radio just all about old men, morse code
and protection of the past? I do suspect that the silent majority
is getting larger by the day as the grim reaper becomes closer and
closer?
Art
Art

Real time proof of Poyntings vector
 

"art" wrote in message
ups.com...
On 7 Jun, 03:23, wrote:
On Jun 6, 6:04 pm, art wrote:

On 6 Jun, 15:57, "Dave" wrote:

But David, you reject the basics of a Gaussian antenna which is why I
have reservations about your logic tho granted others appear to
agree with you, so I want to read up on it for myself.

Shame on his mess...

When reseaching the net I see numorous attempts to
provide a real time proof for it but nothing as factual as the
Gaussian antenna.

What is a "gaussian" antenna as you consider it?
All the hints I've seen so far point to some kind of array with
all elements the same length.
Fed in equilibrium so you say... :/
What makes that special? Sounds like a perverted driven array
to me.. Something anyone with a crayon, or modeling program
could conjer up various versions till the cows come home.
Why would you need to rewrite proven theory to explain a driven
array?
Seems the performance of driven arrays is already fairly well
known. Even fairly perverted ones... :/

So contrary to what you say there is a lot going on
in trying to find a proof for it even tho you at the same time reject
the Gaussian connection.

A proof for what? Gaussian connection to what?
Who is doing all this whole lot of going on? Enquiring
minds wanna know...

After seeing the automatic rejection of

ANY ideas that represent new ideas in the amateur community I am
beginning to wonder if the E/H antennas is a victim of the same
syndrome .

The only ideas that seem to be rejected are the ones that distort
and mangle fairly well known principals.
Yes, I do compare your "gaussian" antenna to be about in
the same league as the E/H antenna because you both use
doo-doo bafflegab to try to "invent" yourselves some kind of new
antenna, which is really just a perverted version of an
existing known antenna.
Your's will actually perform a bit better though, since I
assume the feedline won't do the majority of the radiating,
as is the case with the E/H antenna.
But to me, both of you use what I consider as "doo-doo"
science to try to have some kind of explanation for whatever it
is you are trying to achieve.

I am coming across many papers that suggest that there
is more to radiation than scholars presently believe so it is
natural to me that amateurs would automatically reject any new
aproach by derisive comments such as junk science or similar.

It's not your antenna that is junk science.. It's just a perverted
driven array as far as I can tell.
It's the bafflegab you come up with to give it some kind of
divine level of performance that is junk science..
Just the way you constantly tweak the usual application of the
word "efficiency" is enough to scare many away.
And this "equilibrium" jibber jabber... Wouldn't it be easier to say
they are all fed in phase? Although some of our roving reporters
say you aren't actually feeding all the elements, in phase or not..
Seems to vary from day to day according to what kind of feedback
you get from the previous days posts..
I still wonder why in the heck you care what anyone here thinks
anyway.. I would just build the silly thing if it means that much
to you.
MK

I suppose a request for help is in order to respond in a fair way
to this particular posting. The poster is complaining that I have
only give hints with respect to this antenna. Harrison says the same.
Others say the Poynting vector does not have a need a "proof"
Another knows enough so as to say that it has already been invented
but refuses to amplify. Also one states that the computor programs
prove there is nothing new. Another states that there must be coupling
of some sort what ever he was trying to say. Another questions what
is new when all elements in the array are resonant. Another says
that it is really a messed up Yagi. Another advocates that elements
should be put in line. On top of that many question the meaning
of the word " equilibrium. What on earth can one do to placate
the baying of the wolves and the procedure back to infancy.

Answer reasonable questions with reasonable answers.

When you make references to someone elses work that you think proves your
point reference where you found them so that others may review them.

Do Not try to redefine existing words. You have miss used words so foten no
one knows if you are talking about the classical meaning of the word or your
own definition.

When you tell how superior your antenna to an XYZ antenna show comparisons
of both. No one should have to do this for you.


Try these for starters, I and others can come up with a few more.

Real time proof of Poyntings vector
 

art wrote:

...
is getting larger by the day as the grim reaper becomes closer and
closer?
Art

When he gets here, I am going to kick his bony "bott!"

Regards,
JS

Real time proof of Poyntings vector
 

On 8 Jun, 12:59, "Jimmie D" wrote:
"art" wrote in message

ups.com...





On 7 Jun, 03:23, wrote:
On Jun 6, 6:04 pm, art wrote:

On 6 Jun, 15:57, "Dave" wrote:

But David, you reject the basics of a Gaussian antenna which is why I
have reservations about your logic tho granted others appear to
agree with you, so I want to read up on it for myself.

Shame on his mess...

When reseaching the net I see numorous attempts to
provide a real time proof for it but nothing as factual as the
Gaussian antenna.

What is a "gaussian" antenna as you consider it?
All the hints I've seen so far point to some kind of array with
all elements the same length.
Fed in equilibrium so you say... :/
What makes that special? Sounds like a perverted driven array
to me.. Something anyone with a crayon, or modeling program
could conjer up various versions till the cows come home.
Why would you need to rewrite proven theory to explain a driven
array?
Seems the performance of driven arrays is already fairly well
known. Even fairly perverted ones... :/

So contrary to what you say there is a lot going on
in trying to find a proof for it even tho you at the same time reject
the Gaussian connection.

A proof for what? Gaussian connection to what?
Who is doing all this whole lot of going on? Enquiring
minds wanna know...

After seeing the automatic rejection of

ANY ideas that represent new ideas in the amateur community I am
beginning to wonder if the E/H antennas is a victim of the same
syndrome .

The only ideas that seem to be rejected are the ones that distort
and mangle fairly well known principals.
Yes, I do compare your "gaussian" antenna to be about in
the same league as the E/H antenna because you both use
doo-doo bafflegab to try to "invent" yourselves some kind of new
antenna, which is really just a perverted version of an
existing known antenna.
Your's will actually perform a bit better though, since I
assume the feedline won't do the majority of the radiating,
as is the case with the E/H antenna.
But to me, both of you use what I consider as "doo-doo"
science to try to have some kind of explanation for whatever it
is you are trying to achieve.

I am coming across many papers that suggest that there
is more to radiation than scholars presently believe so it is
natural to me that amateurs would automatically reject any new
aproach by derisive comments such as junk science or similar.

It's not your antenna that is junk science.. It's just a perverted
driven array as far as I can tell.
It's the bafflegab you come up with to give it some kind of
divine level of performance that is junk science..
Just the way you constantly tweak the usual application of the
word "efficiency" is enough to scare many away.
And this "equilibrium" jibber jabber... Wouldn't it be easier to say
they are all fed in phase? Although some of our roving reporters
say you aren't actually feeding all the elements, in phase or not..
Seems to vary from day to day according to what kind of feedback
you get from the previous days posts..
I still wonder why in the heck you care what anyone here thinks
anyway.. I would just build the silly thing if it means that much
to you.
MK

I suppose a request for help is in order to respond in a fair way
to this particular posting. The poster is complaining that I have
only give hints with respect to this antenna. Harrison says the same.
Others say the Poynting vector does not have a need a "proof"
Another knows enough so as to say that it has already been invented
but refuses to amplify. Also one states that the computor programs
prove there is nothing new. Another states that there must be coupling
of some sort what ever he was trying to say. Another questions what
is new when all elements in the array are resonant. Another says
that it is really a messed up Yagi. Another advocates that elements
should be put in line. On top of that many question the meaning
of the word " equilibrium. What on earth can one do to placate
the baying of the wolves and the procedure back to infancy.

Answer reasonable questions with reasonable answers.

When you make references to someone elses work that you think proves your
point reference where you found them so that others may review them.

Do Not try to redefine existing words. You have miss used words so foten no
one knows if you are talking about the classical meaning of the word or your
own definition.

When you tell how superior your antenna to an XYZ antenna show comparisons
of both. No one should have to do this for you.

Try these for starters, I and others can come up with a few more.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Can you show me how you define gravity as a theory that was taught in
Florida?
I think that would be a good example for me to follow.
Any other comments from other members as how I can satisfy the
learning problems
of this person? A discussion regarding gravity by those who know
something about it
would be enlightning. I would like to know when a theory becomes a law
as an
amateur radio operator sees it.
Richard asks for no over elabaration.
One liners please and try to follow his example.
Some body could also what materials can be turned into gold
(With references ofcourse)with definition of words and sources used.
I know you have to assume that others have some intelligence.
Most know how to change a light bulb on a tower as they have had
that experience over and over in their respective tower maintenance
careers.

Real time proof of Poyntings vector
 

art wrote:

...

Many "laws" are still only theories, probably because no one knows the
real workings behind the scenes. (the guy behind the curtain ... or,
don't look now, but we ain't in kansas!)

But, with gravity, I don't have an interest, anyway, I have my own law:
"Objects close to the earth tend to stay close to the earth, unless
extraordinary means/forces are used to remove them ..."

You can bank on "Smiths' Law!"

Anyway, unless you have a "gravity antenna" you are introducing, this is
boring ... gravity can be that way, yanno?

JS

Real time proof of Poyntings vector
 

Can you show me how you define gravity as a theory that was taught in
Florida?
I think that would be a good example for me to follow.
Any other comments from other members as how I can satisfy the
learning problems
of this person? A discussion regarding gravity by those who know
something about it
would be enlightning. I would like to know when a theory becomes a law
as an
amateur radio operator sees it.
Richard asks for no over elabaration.
One liners please and try to follow his example.
Some body could also what materials can be turned into gold
(With references ofcourse)with definition of words and sources used.
I know you have to assume that others have some intelligence.
Most know how to change a light bulb on a tower as they have had
that experience over and over in their respective tower maintenance
careers.

The word "Theory" has several meanings, and should not be taken
out of context. As examples from www.dictionary.com:
1.. A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts
or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely
accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.
2.. contemplation or speculation.
Many theories at taken to mean "2", when "1" should be used.
The theory of gravitation falls into the first class, stated as follows:
"Every object attracts every other object with a force proportional
to the masses of the objects, and inversely proportional to the
square of the distance between the objects".

--
Frank

Real time proof of Poyntings vector
 

On 8 Jun, 15:03, "Frank's"
wrote:
Can you show me how you define gravity as a theory that was taught in
Florida?
I think that would be a good example for me to follow.
Any other comments from other members as how I can satisfy the
learning problems
of this person? A discussion regarding gravity by those who know
something about it
would be enlightning. I would like to know when a theory becomes a law
as an
amateur radio operator sees it.
Richard asks for no over elabaration.
One liners please and try to follow his example.
Some body could also what materials can be turned into gold
(With references ofcourse)with definition of words and sources used.
I know you have to assume that others have some intelligence.
Most know how to change a light bulb on a tower as they have had
that experience over and over in their respective tower maintenance
careers.

The word "Theory" has several meanings, and should not be taken
out of context. As examples fromwww.dictionary.com:
1.. A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts
or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely
accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.
2.. contemplation or speculation.
Many theories at taken to mean "2", when "1" should be used.
The theory of gravitation falls into the first class, stated as follows:
"Every object attracts every other object with a force proportional
to the masses of the objects, and inversely proportional to the
square of the distance between the objects".

--
Frank- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Oh my. Gravity, theory and equilibrium is way to much to foist on
amateur radio operators. Most are so old and have little time
to sleep or live that they wouldn't be around at the end even
if we could get there because of constant opposition to the use
of the words.
I thimk Frank, a start on another attenna aproach such as the
concentration of time and computor work by Cebik and Antennex
in efforts to get an antenna that can be matched over a wide band.
I don't think they got anywhere but maybe a review would be in order
of making the driven element really thick which they say is the way to
go.
Maybe making the driven element thicker than the length of the element
is the way to go to prove this concept that they are trying to prove.
Perhaps the old timers can give us hints about a similar aproach that
they invented years ago that nobody took notice of. After all every
thing is really known except how to put a PL259 connector
on a coax that hasbeen ill treated by being stepped on.
I will have to rethink all this after I have found out what
Paris Hilton would say.

Real time proof of Poyntings vector
 

finally someone who can answer a straight question with a straight
answer.

So what makes it new and important when so many antennas already
have it?

On Jun 8, 9:32 am, (Richard Harrison) wrote:
Art wrote:

"Without the understanding of the meaning of "equilibrium" how does one
interpret "comservative" or non conservative fields?"

Equilibrium: Synonym=balance

We know balanced antennas have the same impedance between each side of
the antenna and the earth or some other chosen groundpoint.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

Real time proof of Poyntings vector
 

"Frank's" wrote in message
news:Dmkai.8804$nx3.4422@edtnps89...
Can you show me how you define gravity as a theory that was taught in
Florida?
I think that would be a good example for me to follow.
Any other comments from other members as how I can satisfy the
learning problems
of this person? A discussion regarding gravity by those who know
something about it
would be enlightning. I would like to know when a theory becomes a law
as an
amateur radio operator sees it.
Richard asks for no over elabaration.
One liners please and try to follow his example.
Some body could also what materials can be turned into gold
(With references ofcourse)with definition of words and sources used.
I know you have to assume that others have some intelligence.
Most know how to change a light bulb on a tower as they have had
that experience over and over in their respective tower maintenance
careers.

The word "Theory" has several meanings, and should not be taken
out of context. As examples from www.dictionary.com:
1.. A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts
or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely
accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.
2.. contemplation or speculation.
Many theories at taken to mean "2", when "1" should be used.
The theory of gravitation falls into the first class, stated as follows:
"Every object attracts every other object with a force proportional
to the masses of the objects, and inversely proportional to the
square of the distance between the objects".

--
Frank

Yes but we dont know why. and we may never know if this applies to every
object. Perhaps there are some that repel.

Jimmie

Real time proof of Poyntings vector
 

On 8 Jun, 15:35, wrote:
finally someone who can answer a straight question with a straight
answer.

So what makes it new and important when so many antennas already
have it?

On Jun 8, 9:32 am, (Richard Harrison) wrote:



Art wrote:

"Without the understanding of the meaning of "equilibrium" how does one
interpret "comservative" or non conservative fields?"

Equilibrium: Synonym=balance

We know balanced antennas have the same impedance between each side of
the antenna and the earth or some other chosen groundpoint.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And the book and corresponding page that you copied it from?
Seems like you missed a couple of lines.

Real time proof of Poyntings vector
 

On 8 Jun, 16:00, "Jimmie D" wrote:
"Frank's" wrote in message

news:Dmkai.8804$nx3.4422@edtnps89...



Can you show me how you define gravity as a theory that was taught in
Florida?
I think that would be a good example for me to follow.
Any other comments from other members as how I can satisfy the
learning problems
of this person? A discussion regarding gravity by those who know
something about it
would be enlightning. I would like to know when a theory becomes a law
as an
amateur radio operator sees it.
Richard asks for no over elabaration.
One liners please and try to follow his example.
Some body could also what materials can be turned into gold
(With references ofcourse)with definition of words and sources used.
I know you have to assume that others have some intelligence.
Most know how to change a light bulb on a tower as they have had
that experience over and over in their respective tower maintenance
careers.

The word "Theory" has several meanings, and should not be taken
out of context. As examples fromwww.dictionary.com:
1.. A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts
or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely
accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.
2.. contemplation or speculation.
Many theories at taken to mean "2", when "1" should be used.
The theory of gravitation falls into the first class, stated as follows:
"Every object attracts every other object with a force proportional
to the masses of the objects, and inversely proportional to the
square of the distance between the objects".

--
Frank

Yes but we dont know why. and we may never know if this applies to every
object. Perhaps there are some that repel.

Jimmie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

How about, Gravity being the center of a mass whose forces pushing
outwards
repels forces pointing inwards until the mass evolves into a state of
equilibrium.
Where the same forces come into play with all items of mass or energy
where
these forces equalise and retains balance with all other objects
within the Galaxy.
Since the Galaxy is expanding it's make up parts are consistently
changing because of
the changes in attractive and repelling moments as they seek to
readjust to fill
the surrounding entity which is limitless. If the energy of an entity
decays such that inward forces
cannot be repelled the expansion of the universe mechanism becomes
interupted
by the formation of black holes and where moments become
redistibruted.
Thus gravity can be defined as the mass or energy which is determined
by the opposing forces
to the particular entity to obtain equilibrium. O.k. guys wrap your
mind around that sucker
starting at the equivalent point of mass and energy and its
interchangeability.
Cecil you get first shot at pushing the barrel downhill and the others
get the
next chance to stop it.
Art

Real time proof of Poyntings vector
 

On Jun 8, 4:40 pm, art wrote:
On 8 Jun, 15:35, wrote:





finally someone who can answer a straight question with a straight
answer.

So what makes it new and important when so many antennas already
have it?

On Jun 8, 9:32 am, (Richard Harrison) wrote:

Art wrote:

"Without the understanding of the meaning of "equilibrium" how does one
interpret "comservative" or non conservative fields?"

Equilibrium: Synonym=balance

We know balanced antennas have the same impedance between each side of
the antenna and the earth or some other chosen groundpoint.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And the book and corresponding page that you copied it from?
Seems like you missed a couple of lines.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

what in the worl d are you talking about? Really this is to simple.
richards' answer makes enuff sense not to have to ask a proffesor

Real time proof of Poyntings vector
 

It should have read:

"Every object attracts every other object with a force proportional
to the product of the masses, and inversely proportional to the
square of the distance between the objects".

or F = G*((M1*M2)/R^2),

Where G is the constant of proportionality.

--
Frank

Real time proof of Poyntings vector
 

On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 13:26:48 -0700, art wrote:

Richard asks for no over elabaration.

Hi Arthur,

And you answer about antennas using gravity?

THAT is over elaborate.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Real time proof of Poyntings vector
 

"Frank's" wrote in message
news:Yvnai.12288$vT6.4440@edtnps90...
It should have read:

"Every object attracts every other object with a force proportional
to the product of the masses, and inversely proportional to the
square of the distance between the objects".

or F = G*((M1*M2)/R^2),

Where G is the constant of proportionality.

--
Frank


As far as we know.
This is also analagous to electrostatic and magnetic forces where F can be
attractive or repelent. I wouldnt write of the posibility that this may be
also true for gravity just yet.


Jimmie