Hammer drills and ground rods, followup
 

Today I rented a hammer drill and a fitting for driving in ground rods
(they even had the right fitting even though they didn't know it and
didn't know what I was talking about...).

MAN, DOES THAT THING WORK NICE !!!

Took about two hours to drive 7 rods, after the first one (that I did
manually with a sledge hammer) took about 10 hours spread out over a week
(just for one).

Those of you who suggested a hammer drill really had it right, and saved
my butt... thanks. :-)

Somebody mentioned something about a battery-powered hammer drill. I
haven't been able to find anything like that... can someone tell me who
makes one?

Thanks again... :-)

Hammer drills and ground rods, followup
 

On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 11:18:56 -0400, "Rick (W-A-one-R-K-T)"
wrote:

Somebody mentioned something about a battery-powered hammer drill. I
haven't been able to find anything like that... can someone tell me who
makes one?

IMO they are too light weight to do your job application. They
normally are used for drilling small and shallow holes.

But here's some info.

http://bosch.cpotools.com/hammers_an...11225vsrh.html

and

http://www.unbeatablesale.com/tpbd90...ci_sku=TPBD904

Danny, K6MHE

Hammer drills and ground rods, followup
 

"Rick (W-A-one-R-K-T)" wrote in message
...

Today I rented a hammer drill and a fitting for driving in ground rods
(they even had the right fitting even though they didn't know it and
didn't know what I was talking about...).

MAN, DOES THAT THING WORK NICE !!!

Took about two hours to drive 7 rods, after the first one (that I did
manually with a sledge hammer) took about 10 hours spread out over a week
(just for one).

Those of you who suggested a hammer drill really had it right, and saved
my butt... thanks. :-)

Somebody mentioned something about a battery-powered hammer drill. I
haven't been able to find anything like that... can someone tell me who
makes one?

Thanks again... :-)

Hey - - great news. Thanks for telling us. Now, is there any chance you
might know what brand and model number of hammer drill you used? If you
know the model number of the fitting, that would help, too. Ideally it would
be fun to be able to find the model numbers in the manufacturer's catalog to
see what everything looks like, so when we go to the rental place, we can
tell if they have the right stuff, even if they don't know it themselves.

Hammer drills and ground rods, followup
 

Hey - - great news. Thanks for telling us. Now, is there any chance
you might know what brand and model number of hammer drill you used?
If you know the model number of the fitting, that would help, too.
Ideally it would be fun to be able to find the model numbers in the
manufacturer's catalog to see what everything looks like, so when we
go to the rental place, we can tell if they have the right stuff, even
if they don't know it themselves.





Check out

http://bosch.cpotools.com/hammers_an...ammer_drills/?
ref=googaw808e

for quality hammer drills.

Ed K7AAT

Hammer drills and ground rods, followup
 

On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 11:27:33 -0700, Chuck Olson wrote:

is there any chance you might know what brand and model number of hammer
drill you used?

Yup, it's the Hilti TE-76-ATC.

Nobody I ever heard of... but it sure works nice.

Hammer drills and ground rods, followup
 

Years ago a friend rented a hydraulic drill to get in a long ground rod --
sed it worked well
Guess it uses water pressure to go thru the earth
Any comments
Lamont

Hammer drills and ground rods, followup
 

Yup, it's the Hilti TE-76-ATC.

Nobody I ever heard of... but it sure works nice.




Google sure has heard of it! Lots of hits when I did a search on it.
Looks like a nice unit, although "quality" doesn't necessrily show up in a
picture.....

Ed K7AAT

Hammer drills and ground rods, followup
 

"Rick (W-A-one-R-K-T)" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 11:27:33 -0700, Chuck Olson wrote:

is there any chance you might know what brand and model number of hammer
drill you used?

Yup, it's the Hilti TE-76-ATC.

Nobody I ever heard of... but it sure works nice.

Thanks, Rick - - I guess if you knew the part number for the "right fitting"
you would have told me. Can you describe what it looked like?

Hammer drills and ground rods, followup
 

"Rick (W-A-one-R-K-T)" wrote in
:

On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 11:27:33 -0700, Chuck Olson wrote:

is there any chance you might know what brand and model number of
hammer
drill you used?

Yup, it's the Hilti TE-76-ATC.

Nobody I ever heard of... but it sure works nice.


Rick,

I see on Hilti's web site he TE-76-ATC, and its accessories include a TE-
Y driving shank and a series of adapters TP-TKS ground rod driving
adapters for different diameters.

Hilti BTW are suppliers of expensive quality tools to the construction
industry, you probably won't find their tools in home handyman stores.

The tool you rented is a little lighter than the one I used, and that is
probably why driving times were a little longer. My Hitach PH-65 machine
with home made driving adapter will drive a 16mm diameter 2.4m earth rod
into dry clay in less than a minute.

Pleased it worked for you. It is the way to go, isn't it!

The numbers above might help people looking to rent a device.

Owen

Hammer drills and ground rods, followup
 

Ed wrote:


Hey - - great news. Thanks for telling us. Now, is there any chance
you might know what brand and model number of hammer drill you used?
If you know the model number of the fitting, that would help, too.
Ideally it would be fun to be able to find the model numbers in the
manufacturer's catalog to see what everything looks like, so when we
go to the rental place, we can tell if they have the right stuff, even
if they don't know it themselves.


Check out

http://bosch.cpotools.com/hammers_an...ammer_drills/?
ref=googaw808e

for quality hammer drills.

None of those drills is suitable for driving ground rods. They are all
regular electric drills, with a conventional 3-jaw chuck and a
lightweight hammer action that depends on the chuck going round.

For driving ground rods, you need a different kind of 'hammer' drill
that has a separate high-impact hammer action, that can be used
*without* the chuck going round.

The SDS+ system is the Bosch company's patented method to build
hand-held electric drills with a *serious* high-impact hammer action.
The system has been widely licensed to other manufacturers, so all SDS+
drills are basically the same. They all have a snap-lock chuck (if it
has a 3-jaw chuck, it ain't SDS) that takes a wide range of heavy-duty
drill bits and tools. Most have a shift lever that gives you the choice
between rotary action on its own, hammer action on its own, or both
together - all in a drill that you can hold in one hand. It makes those
old-style hammer drills look like toys.

The Hilti TE-76-ATC that Rick rented is based on the SDS Max system, the
'big brother' to SDS+, so it's no wonder those ground rods went right
in.


--

73 from Ian GM3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB)
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek

Hammer drills and ground rods, followup
 

I've never paid attention to the tool they use
when they put up the tent at the Charlotte show,
but it'll drive a 1 inch solid tent stake through
the asphalt parking lot like it's butter.

I've never been there to see what they have to do to pull
them out when the tent comes down.
The stakes sure hold the tent fine.

I'd like to drive a ground rod near the point where
the coax hooks to the ladder line from my G5RV,
but it's next to a large oak tree.
I can just imagine what getting through all those
roots would be like.

73, Ron

Hammer drills and ground rods, followup
 

On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 15:14:02 -0700, Chuck Olson wrote:

I guess if you knew the part number for the "right fitting" you would
have told me. Can you describe what it looked like?

Yeah, I have no idea what the part number is, there wasn't one on the
fitting. It has an SDS Max (that's the next bigger one than SDS Plus,
right?) shaft that goes into the chuck of the drill, then that is fastened
to a sort of a cup fitting that fits over the end of the ground rod.

Hammer drills and ground rods, followup
 

" None of those drills is suitable for driving ground rods. They are all
regular electric drills, with a conventional 3-jaw chuck and a lightweight
hammer action that depends on the chuck going round.

For driving ground rods, you need a different kind of 'hammer' drill that
has a separate high-impact hammer action, that can be used *without* the
chuck going round.

The SDS+ system is the Bosch company's patented method to build hand-held
electric drills with a *serious* high-impact hammer action. The system has
been widely licensed to other manufacturers, so all SDS+ drills are
basically the same. They all have a snap-lock chuck (if it has a 3-jaw
chuck, it ain't SDS) that takes a wide range of heavy-duty drill bits and
tools. Most have a shift lever that gives you the choice between rotary
action on its own, hammer action on its own, or both together - all in a
drill that you can hold in one hand. It makes those old-style hammer
drills look like toys.

The Hilti TE-76-ATC that Rick rented is based on the SDS Max system, the
'big brother' to SDS+, so it's no wonder those ground rods went right in.

A compressor and an air chisel do exactly that, and 16mm rod will directly
fit into most chisels.

Jeff

Hammer drills and ground rods, followup
 

I've never paid attention to the tool they use
when they put up the tent at the Charlotte show,
but it'll drive a 1 inch solid tent stake through
the asphalt parking lot like it's butter.

I've never been there to see what they have to do to pull
them out when the tent comes down.
The stakes sure hold the tent fine.

I'd like to drive a ground rod near the point where
the coax hooks to the ladder line from my G5RV,
but it's next to a large oak tree.
I can just imagine what getting through all those
roots would be like.
==============================
Having followed this thread for some time , my simple question is :

Are ground rods really necessary for a good " RF Earth " ?

Are buried or elevated radials or an area covered with '(galvanised)
wire mesh' not equally effective or even superior ?

Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH

Hammer drills and ground rods, followup
 

Highland Ham wrote:
==============================
Having followed this thread for some time , my simple question is :

Are ground rods really necessary for a good " RF Earth " ?

No. But they're essential for a good lightning ground or safety (mains)
ground.

Are buried or elevated radials or an area covered with '(galvanised)
wire mesh' not equally effective or even superior ?

For RF, yes. For lightning or safety ground, no.

You should be able to find a great deal of information about the
different requirements for different grounds by searching previous
postings of this newsgroup with groups.google.com.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Hammer drills and ground rods, followup
 

"Highland Ham" wrote in message
...
I've never paid attention to the tool they use
when they put up the tent at the Charlotte show,
but it'll drive a 1 inch solid tent stake through
the asphalt parking lot like it's butter.

I've never been there to see what they have to do to pull
them out when the tent comes down.
The stakes sure hold the tent fine.

I'd like to drive a ground rod near the point where
the coax hooks to the ladder line from my G5RV,
but it's next to a large oak tree.
I can just imagine what getting through all those
roots would be like.
==============================
Having followed this thread for some time , my simple question is :

Are ground rods really necessary for a good " RF Earth " ?

Are buried or elevated radials or an area covered with '(galvanised)
wire mesh' not equally effective or even superior ?

Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH

Frank

For RF purposes, radials or mesh are more effective than ground rods.
Radials and mesh form a 'mirror' surface at RF effectively reflecting an
image of the elevated antenna radiating element. It is not necessary to
actually have a 'good' connection to real earth, just the antenna system.
This is why elevated radials can work.

The radiating portion of the antenna needs something to 'work' against. So
you have two choices, a monopole antenna which can be thought of as working
against it's reflection in the earth, or a dipole antenna where each antenna
element works against the other. Just about all antennas are variants of
these two methods.

Mike G0ULI

Hammer drills and ground rods, followup
 

I'd like to drive a ground rod near the point where
the coax hooks to the ladder line from my G5RV,
but it's next to a large oak tree.
I can just imagine what getting through all those
roots would be like.

If you have a rotary-hammer drill (as opposed to a plain hammer) you can
use a very long spiral drill bit to make a pilot hole through all the
roots, before hammering in the ground rod.

SDS masonry bits are available up to 1.0m long and will drill through
almost anything, including tree roots and even solid rock. If you can
drill a pilot hole, it almost guarantees that you'll be able to hammer
in the first 3 feet of ground rod very easily. Beyond that depth, it
depends what kind of ground you're in, and how far your luck holds out.


Highland Ham wrote:
Having followed this thread for some time , my simple question is :

Are ground rods really necessary for a good " RF Earth " ?

Are buried or elevated radials or an area covered with '(galvanised)
wire mesh' not equally effective or even superior ?

Wire mesh makes an excellent RF ground. It is particularly good for
Field Days and DXpeditions because you can quickly roll out a large area
of ground cover (typically in a '+' formation) and then roll it up again
when you're done.

But never for a permanent installation! While clearing the ground at
this new QTH, I ran into an impossible tangle of matted grass and bits
of sharp, rusty mesh that turned out to be an abandoned chicken coop. We
finally had to plane off the whole area with a dozer blade, and that
still didn't get rid of it, of course - all we could do was push the
problem out of the way.

Having experienced the legacy left by abandoned chicken mesh, I have
vowed always to use conventional wire radials that can be pulled out
easily after I'm gone.


--

73 from Ian GM3SEK

Hammer drills and ground rods, followup
 

None of those drills is suitable for driving ground rods. They are all
regular electric drills, with a conventional 3-jaw chuck and a
lightweight hammer action that depends on the chuck going round.

For driving ground rods, you need a different kind of 'hammer' drill
that has a separate high-impact hammer action, that can be used
*without* the chuck going round.


My mistake! I googled "hammer drill which was the wrong term, and
device. Instead, I should have used the term "Rotary Hammer" which is
the correct device one would use for driving ground rods. I have used a
Bosch model for many years.... an excellent device for driving copper
clad steel ground rods.... will actually crack and pierce rocks if they
are in the way.

The correct Bosch device can be found at:

http://www.tylertool.com/bosrotham.html


Ed K7AAT

Hammer drills and ground rods, followup
 

Ed wrote:


None of those drills is suitable for driving ground rods. They are all
regular electric drills, with a conventional 3-jaw chuck and a
lightweight hammer action that depends on the chuck going round.

For driving ground rods, you need a different kind of 'hammer' drill
that has a separate high-impact hammer action, that can be used
*without* the chuck going round.


My mistake! I googled "hammer drill which was the wrong term, and
device. Instead, I should have used the term "Rotary Hammer" which is
the correct device one would use for driving ground rods.

Thank you for finding out the correct American name, Ed.

I have used a
Bosch model for many years.... an excellent device for driving copper
clad steel ground rods.... will actually crack and pierce rocks if they
are in the way.

The correct Bosch device can be found at:

http://www.tylertool.com/bosrotham.html

Yup, those are the ones, and Makita are good too.


--

73 from Ian GM3SEK

Hammer drills and ground rods, followup
 

Ron in Radio Heaven wrote:
I've never paid attention to the tool they use
when they put up the tent at the Charlotte show,
but it'll drive a 1 inch solid tent stake through
the asphalt parking lot like it's butter.

I've never been there to see what they have to do to pull
them out when the tent comes down.

An automobile bumper jack works fairly well as a stake puller.

Hammer drills and ground rods, followup
 

Jim Lux wrote:
Ron in Radio Heaven wrote:

I've never paid attention to the tool they use
when they put up the tent at the Charlotte show,
but it'll drive a 1 inch solid tent stake through
the asphalt parking lot like it's butter.

I've never been there to see what they have to do to pull
them out when the tent comes down.


An automobile bumper jack works fairly well as a stake puller.

Fairly well? It works great! Pulls out a 10 foot ground
rod like it was set in butter. The big thing is that once
you've lifted the ground rod a foot or so, you can pretty well
pull it out by hand. I just wish there was some way to
jack it in!!

Irv Ve^BP

Hammer drills and ground rods, followup
 

Irv Finkleman wrote:
Jim Lux wrote:

Ron in Radio Heaven wrote:

I've never paid attention to the tool they use
when they put up the tent at the Charlotte show,
but it'll drive a 1 inch solid tent stake through
the asphalt parking lot like it's butter.

I've never been there to see what they have to do to pull
them out when the tent comes down.



An automobile bumper jack works fairly well as a stake puller.


Fairly well? It works great! Pulls out a 10 foot ground
rod like it was set in butter. The big thing is that once
you've lifted the ground rod a foot or so, you can pretty well
pull it out by hand. I just wish there was some way to
jack it in!!

Irv Ve^BP

Also helps to have a 2' sheet of plywood with a 4" hole in the middle
that you can set on the ground around the stake to set the jack base on.
In goopy soil, you can drive the base of the jack into the muck before
you get the rod out.

Hammer drills and ground rods, followup
 

In article ,
Ian White GM3SEK wrote:

The SDS+ system is the Bosch company's patented method to build
hand-held electric drills with a *serious* high-impact hammer action.
The system has been widely licensed to other manufacturers, so all SDS+
drills are basically the same. They all have a snap-lock chuck (if it
has a 3-jaw chuck, it ain't SDS) that takes a wide range of heavy-duty
drill bits and tools. Most have a shift lever that gives you the choice
between rotary action on its own, hammer action on its own, or both
together - all in a drill that you can hold in one hand.

Ian-

Local stores carry the SDS+ drills, but I have been unable to locate a
local source for the 1/2 inch nut driver (socket adapter) to use with it.

I did find a Hitachi part number. A Hitachi dealer called the company
to see about ordering one. Hitachi agreed it was a good number, but
they didn't have any and didn't know how to get them!

There is a company in the UK called ScrewFix.com that advertises them.
However, I don't know how to handle the conversion between dollars and
pounds when paying. I wonder if the credit card company can take care
of that automatically?

Fred
K4DII

Hammer drills and ground rods, followup
 

Fred McKenzie wrote:
In article ,
Ian White GM3SEK wrote:

The SDS+ system is the Bosch company's patented method to build
hand-held electric drills with a *serious* high-impact hammer action.
The system has been widely licensed to other manufacturers, so all SDS+
drills are basically the same. They all have a snap-lock chuck (if it
has a 3-jaw chuck, it ain't SDS) that takes a wide range of heavy-duty
drill bits and tools. Most have a shift lever that gives you the choice
between rotary action on its own, hammer action on its own, or both
together - all in a drill that you can hold in one hand.

Ian-

Local stores carry the SDS+ drills, but I have been unable to locate a
local source for the 1/2 inch nut driver (socket adapter) to use with it.

I did find a Hitachi part number. A Hitachi dealer called the company
to see about ordering one. Hitachi agreed it was a good number, but
they didn't have any and didn't know how to get them!

There is a company in the UK called ScrewFix.com that advertises them.

That's where I bought mine. I have posted a photograph of the whole
setup at:
www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek/misc/rod-driver.jpg

The adapter is the object between the socket and the chuck (not quite in
its original condition - the rust and weld spatter are aftermarket
accessories).

As I said earlier, the socket is only there to prevent the driver from
jumping off the end of the ground rod, so it only needs to be a very
loose fit.

However, I don't know how to handle the conversion between dollars and
pounds when paying. I wonder if the credit card company can take care
of that automatically?

Yes, that is done automatically. However, you may pay more in shipping
charges and US Customs duty than the cost of the item itself.

Rather than go to all that trouble, you might do better to have
something made locally.

The only special part is the slotted shank that snaps into the chuck.
This is exactly the same on every SDS+ drill bit and tool, so you can
simply buy the cheapest item you can find (probably a small masonry bit)
and chop off the end that you don't need.

Then find a short piece of steel tubing that will slide loosely over the
end of your ground rods, and have the two parts welded together.



--

73 from Ian GM3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB)
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek

Hammer drills and ground rods, followup
 

Ian White GM3SEK wrote in news:vjC1vRDSbWvGFAt1
@ifwtech.co.uk:

....
The only special part is the slotted shank that snaps into the chuck.
This is exactly the same on every SDS+ drill bit and tool, so you can
simply buy the cheapest item you can find (probably a small masonry
bit)
and chop off the end that you don't need.

Then find a short piece of steel tubing that will slide loosely over
the
end of your ground rods, and have the two parts welded together.

This can't be too hard, can it Ian!

I just looked on Ebay here in Oz, and I can buy a 20mm SDS chisel for
about $14 delivered. I would cut the shank just above the chisel end and
slip a 50mm long piece of 20mm NB steel pipe over the remaining shank
end, weld it on, and there you go. Ideally, the end of the tool should be
harder, but if you are only driving a few rods, you probably won't split
the collar.

Wrap your copper clad earth rod with a good few wraps of electrical tape
so that the tool does not noodle up the end of the electrode.

Protect your eyes when using this type of tool, especially improvising
tools from cheap asian chisels.

Owen

Hammer drills and ground rods, followup
 

Owen Duffy wrote:
Ian White GM3SEK wrote in news:vjC1vRDSbWvGFAt1
:

...
The only special part is the slotted shank that snaps into the chuck.
This is exactly the same on every SDS+ drill bit and tool, so you can
simply buy the cheapest item you can find (probably a small masonry
bit)
and chop off the end that you don't need.

Then find a short piece of steel tubing that will slide loosely over
the
end of your ground rods, and have the two parts welded together.

This can't be too hard, can it Ian!

I just looked on Ebay here in Oz, and I can buy a 20mm SDS chisel for
about $14 delivered. I would cut the shank just above the chisel end and
slip a 50mm long piece of 20mm NB steel pipe over the remaining shank
end, weld it on, and there you go.

Good idea! The shank part of an SDS+ tool is quite a small diameter, so
it's a good idea to buy some kind of tool that widens to about the same
diameter as the ground rod.

Ideally, the end of the tool should be
harder, but if you are only driving a few rods, you probably won't split
the collar.

The collar needs to be a *loose* fit over the rod, so there should be no
risk whatever of it splitting.

Wrap your copper clad earth rod with a good few wraps of electrical tape
so that the tool does not noodle up the end of the electrode.

The ground rod is only mild steel, so the top of it will probably
mushroom over anyway (which is the main reason for making the collar a
loose fit). In general, you'll have to plan on making the connection a
few inches below the very top.

Protect your eyes when using this type of tool, especially improvising
tools from cheap asian chisels.

Even the cheapest SDS accessories have to be made from good tool steel,
or else they couldn't handle any normal use. Also, the collar acts as a
safety guard around the place where the hammer action is being applied.

However, protection is always a good idea. When you're driving a typical
4ft rod, the action begins right up at chest level, and then moves
slowly downward past other vulnerable parts of the anatomy.


--

73 from Ian GM3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB)
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek