"Waves of Average Power"
 

On 27 Oct, 09:58, Cecil Moore wrote:
art wrote:
It is well known that the electron in a accellerator
aproaches the speed of sound.

Speed of sound? That's much too fast for free
electrons in a wire conductor.

Free electrons accellerate from the SURFACE of a wire radiator
so are you saying that it produces photons that move at the speed of
light?
If so how is the accelleration vector imparted to the photon that then
gives
it a further increase in accelleration.
I was thinking that the electron travelled in a straight line until
it was able to find a material surface that is willing or able to
accept a free electron before it decays such as a diamagnetic material
I am travelling in murky waters here so any guidance would be helpfull
Best regards
Art Unwin KB9MZ....XG




Is the above in conflict with your statement?

In DC circuits, electrons flow at speeds that can
be expressed in cm/min. In RF circuits they hardly
have time to move at all in one direction before
they have to start moving in the other direction.

It is the photons released by energy-rich electrons
that flow at the speed of light. The EM wave energy
is associated with those photons.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

"Waves of Average Power"
 

On 27 Oct, 10:50, art wrote:
On 27 Oct, 09:58, Cecil Moore wrote:

art wrote:
It is well known that the electron in a accellerator
aproaches the speed of sound.

Speed of sound? That's much too fast for free
electrons in a wire conductor.

Free electrons accellerate from the SURFACE of a wire radiator
so are you saying that it produces photons that move at the speed of
light?
If so how is the accelleration vector imparted to the photon that then
gives
it a further increase in accelleration.
I was thinking that the electron travelled in a straight line until
it was able to find a material surface that is willing or able to
accept a free electron before it decays such as a diamagnetic material
I am travelling in murky waters here so any guidance would be helpfull
Best regards
Art Unwin KB9MZ....XG





Is the above in conflict with your statement?

In DC circuits, electrons flow at speeds that can
be expressed in cm/min. In RF circuits they hardly
have time to move at all in one direction before
they have to start moving in the other direction.

It is the photons released by energy-rich electrons
that flow at the speed of light. The EM wave energy
is associated with those photons.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sorry about the "sound" comment. While typing I was
also thinking of ten metres in the old days where
one could hear the sound of a around the world type propagation
Regards
Art

"Waves of Average Power"
 

Cecil Moore wrote:
Stefan Wolfe wrote:
"Cecil Moore" wrote:
This thread is started to allow anyone who believes
in "waves of average power" to say so and explain
why they believe such.

My MFJ tuner has a scale called "Average Power", along with "PEP".
Gosh, if my MFJ tuner has it on the dial, it exists! :-))

The average power is the joules passing a fixed
point in one second. It is the joules that are
flowing, not the watts.

You've finally written something so stupid that it's
beyond replying to.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

"Waves of Average Power"
 

art wrote:
Free electrons accelerate from the SURFACE of a wire radiator
so are you saying that it produces photons that move at the speed of
light?

When energy is imparted to an electron, if nothing
changed, it would accelerate. But the electron, instead
of accelerating appreciably, gives up the extra energy
in the form of a photon. Quoting Feynman in "QED":

So now, I present you the three basic actions, from which
all the phenomena of light (RF) and electrons arise.
- Action #1: A photon goes from place to place.
- Action #2: An electron goes from place to place.
- Action #3: An electron emits or absorbs a photon.

Electrons have a rest mass and like all other rest masses
not equal to zero cannot travel at the speed of light. The
particle accelerators that accelerate electrons to near the
speed of light require a lot of power.

If so how is the acceleration vector imparted to the photon that then
gives it a further increase in acceleration.

Electrons emit photons which are traveling at the speed
of light. Photons can travel at no other speed although
the VF of the medium affects the absolute speed.

I was thinking that the electron traveled in a straight line until
it was able to find a material surface that is willing or able to
accept a free electron before it decays such as a diamagnetic material

At RF frequencies, the movement of electrons is more like
a vibration than like a travel. They are essentially
vibrating within a small volume while absorbing and emitting
photons. And of course, the uncertainty principle applies.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

"Waves of Average Power"
 

Tom Donaly wrote:
You've finally written something so stupid that it's
beyond replying to.

Finally, a reply with some technical content - NOT!
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

"Waves of Average Power"
 

On 27 Oct, 18:36, Cecil Moore wrote:
art wrote:
Free electrons accelerate from the SURFACE of a wire radiator
so are you saying that it produces photons that move at the speed of
light?

When energy is imparted to an electron, if nothing
changed, it would accelerate. But the electron, instead
of accelerating appreciably, gives up the extra energy
in the form of a photon. Quoting Feynman in "QED":

So now, I present you the three basic actions, from which
all the phenomena of light (RF) and electrons arise.
- Action #1: A photon goes from place to place.
- Action #2: An electron goes from place to place.
- Action #3: An electron emits or absorbs a photon.

Electrons have a rest mass and like all other rest masses
not equal to zero cannot travel at the speed of light. The
particle accelerators that accelerate electrons to near the
speed of light require a lot of power.

If so how is the acceleration vector imparted to the photon that then
gives it a further increase in acceleration.

Electrons emit photons which are traveling at the speed
of light. Photons can travel at no other speed although
the VF of the medium affects the absolute speed.

I was thinking that the electron traveled in a straight line until
it was able to find a material surface that is willing or able to
accept a free electron before it decays such as a diamagnetic material

At RF frequencies, the movement of electrons is more like
a vibration than like a travel. They are essentially
vibrating within a small volume while absorbing and emitting
photons. And of course, the uncertainty principle applies.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

I have to read up on things a bit more because if a free
electron resides on the surface of a radiator and is
blasted off that surface then it has mass.
It then cannot settle until it finds a surface that will accept it
which must be a similar material that it was blasted off from
i.e. one that will accept free electrons.
So frankly I am not educated enough to understand the nature of
photons
unless it consists of a field created by the accelerated particle
thus it would be better for me to retire gracefully.
Appreciated your responses
Regards
Art
I think I am out of my depth here Cecil

"Waves of Average Power"
 

art wrote:
I have to read up on things a bit more because if a free
electron resides on the surface of a radiator and is
blasted off that surface then it has mass.

Think of a photon being emitted instead of an electron.

It then cannot settle until it finds a surface that will accept it
which must be a similar material that it was blasted off from
i.e. one that will accept free electrons.

Think of a photon being absorbed by an electron
or radiated into space.

I think I am out of my depth here Cecil

Quantum Electro Dynamics has revolutionized our
understanding of fields and waves which are digital
(quantized) rather than analog. :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

"Waves of Average Power"
 

On 27 Oct, 19:25, Cecil Moore wrote:
art wrote:
I have to read up on things a bit more because if a free
electron resides on the surface of a radiator and is
blasted off that surface then it has mass.

Think of a photon being emitted instead of an electron.

Can't do that Cecil. I see radiation as an electron being blasted away
from the area that it was at rest with some electrons that are
blasted of but prevented from leaving the immediate vicinity or
equilibrium boundary returning to the host material. I cannot see
what a photon would add to this scenario since the released electrons
have the energy accorded to it by inductive energy instantaneous
energy.
I see no way how to include another energy packet to enhance this
energy exchange
i.e. blast that overcomes the electron inertia such that it escapes

As I stated earlier I am obviously out of my depth by thinking
contrary to those educated in the field
I haven't had a chance to read Feynman as yet unless it is hidden
somewhere on the net. Is it possible he is in error regarding photons
as something separate from electrons in flight?
Best regards
Art


It then cannot settle until it finds a surface that will accept it
which must be a similar material that it was blasted off from
i.e. one that will accept free electrons.

Think of a photon being absorbed by an electron
or radiated into space.

I think I am out of my depth here Cecil

Quantum Electro Dynamics has revolutionized our
understanding of fields and waves which are digital
(quantized) rather than analog. :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

"Waves of Average Power"
 

On 28 Oct, 02:46, "Stefan Wolfe" wrote:
"art" wrote in message news:1193540797.556158.313080@

Think of a photon being emitted instead of an electron.

Can't do that Cecil. I see radiation as an electron being blasted away
from the area that it was at rest with some electrons that are
blasted of but prevented from leaving the immediate vicinity or
equilibrium boundary returning to the host material. I cannot see
what a photon would add to this scenario since the released electrons
have the energy accorded to it by inductive energy instantaneous
energy.
I see no way how to include another energy packet to enhance this
energy exchange
i.e. blast that overcomes the electron inertia such that it escapes

The electron does not get "blasted" away. It merely goes to a higher energy
level. Then when it returns to a lower energy level, the difference in
energy is emitted as a photon. The electron does not physically separate
from the atom of the antenna conductor material and radiate into free space,
only the photonic energy is emitted . This all occurs at a frequency that
depends on the tuning of the RF circuit. The antenna conductor should be
geometrically sized to support the frequency of the emssions for maximum
radiation efficiency. Now, since the emission of photons is also an EM wave
emission, the energy emitted has both an electrical and magnetic compoment
associated with it. The energy has been converted from the "work" to simply
move coulombs (electrons) over a potential voltage difference to "work"
needed to radiate photons (waves) into free space. Work is work and it
remains the same; what the work accomplishes is different. This part I
cannot explain very well since I have no idea how RF freqeuncy, or light or
other EM waves can be of both a wave nature and particle (photon) nature,
but it is, and that is how the energy conversion works. The dual particle
natuire and wave nature of RF/light would almost appear to be "faith based"
if it weren't for the large body of mathematics and other physics evidence
that supports it.

Look, I happen to not fully disagree to what you and Cecil are saying.
An electron can be an active part of a substance indynamic form in
orbit around an atom.
You can also have a static form of electron which is at rest.
For radiation I am referring to the dislodfgement of a static
electron.
On the other hand I believe you are referring to a dynamic electron
in
orbit which constitutes part of that of which we see as a mass.
Art

"Waves of Average Power"
 

Will I be able to communicate with anybody else if I just hook up an
antenna to my transceiver and talk away?

Scott
N0EDV


Jim Higgins wrote:

On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 16:58:21 GMT, Cecil Moore
wrote:


art wrote:

It is well known that the electron in a accellerator
aproaches the speed of sound.

Speed of sound? That's much too fast for free
electrons in a wire conductor.


Is the above in conflict with your statement?

In DC circuits, electrons flow at speeds that can
be expressed in cm/min. In RF circuits they hardly
have time to move at all in one direction before
they have to start moving in the other direction.


The RF portion of the above statement is a bit misleading. Electrons
move (motion due to impressed EMF as opposed to Fermi motion) in
response to an applied EMF at a speed proportional to current density
regardless of the frequency of the applied EMF.

--
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)