Dave wrote:
"Denny" wrote in message
...
Nice graphic, Cecil.. But the thread has drifted beyond recognition..
Part of the original dispute across a couple of threads as I
remember it, was the contention that there is no energy contained
within the reflected wave and therefore no energy contained within the
standing wave, i.e. a mere artifact...
I simply wanted to point out that the standing wave on a line does
contain energy and it is a childishly simple exercise to prove it,
therefore the reflected wave must contain energy...
As far as the questioner, where does the energy go between the
standing wave peaks - oy vey....
If it is a real question - as opposed to a rhetorical device which I
hope was the intent - then the profound ignorance of basic physics is
vastly beyond the limited space I have to go over it... See ANY
introductory level, physics textbook for details...

cheers ... denny

the REAL answer is that the 'standing' wave is a creation of experimenters
100 years ago who didn't have the impedance, current, and voltage
measurement tools we have today, and didn't know of or understand
superposition. 'standing' waves are nothing but a result of superposition
of the forward and reflected waves, they have no physical significance
beyond that. it is worthless to talk about power or energy in them since
they can always be broken down into the component waves which make more
sense to work with.




Actually, the people who thought about waves 100 years ago knew quite
well about superposition, standing waves, etc. Where did you get the
idea that they didn't?
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Dave wrote:

Dave wrote:

...
the REAL answer is that the 'standing' wave is a creation of
experimenters 100 years ago who didn't have the impedance, current,
and voltage
...

Interesting statement, experiments are rather easy to do, such as this
URL demonstrates:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/188483/Standing-Waves-Lab

Regards,
JS

the REAL answer is that the 'standing' wave is a creation of experimenters
100 years ago who didn't have the impedance, current, and voltage
measurement tools we have today, and didn't know of or understand
superposition. 'standing' waves are nothing but a result of superposition
of the forward and reflected waves, they have no physical significance
beyond that. it is worthless to talk about power or energy in them since
they can always be broken down into the component waves which make more
sense to work with.

Dave


Whoa!
No physical significance?
Like there is no frying the Hustler loading coil from the bottom up (due to
standing wave current) or corona flames from the tip (due to high SW
voltage) when applying a bit of "worthless" power?

Yuri

Cecil Moore wrote:

...
Why is the ignorance level about traveling waves so high
on this newsgroup? It's the result of those inadequate
lumped circuit models.

In Einsteins' spirit, let's have a real look at waves (basically the
KISS rule):

http://www.colorado.edu/physics/2000...ing_wave1.html

you must go to the bottom of each page and click to view the next of the
series.

The standing wave is "driven" by the forward & reverse traveling waves,
yet best thought of as being "separate in existence" (there are a total
of 3 waves!) ... and can only/really exist within strict confines of
design--or, resonance ...

But then, this is nothing new, or, you already knew that ... I just like
the way this is all presented--on those pages, or, even newbies are
introduced to the depth of the argument ...

Regards,
JS

"Yuri Blanarovich" wrote in message
...

the REAL answer is that the 'standing' wave is a creation of
experimenters 100 years ago who didn't have the impedance, current, and
voltage measurement tools we have today, and didn't know of or understand
superposition. 'standing' waves are nothing but a result of
superposition of the forward and reflected waves, they have no physical
significance beyond that. it is worthless to talk about power or energy
in them since they can always be broken down into the component waves
which make more sense to work with.

Dave


Whoa!
No physical significance?
Like there is no frying the Hustler loading coil from the bottom up (due
to standing wave current) or corona flames from the tip (due to high SW
voltage) when applying a bit of "worthless" power?

Yuri

not due to 'standing' waves... that is due to the superposition of the
forward and reflected waves. They are the real waves, the 'standing' ones
are just figments of your imagination.

Dave wrote:
... They are the real waves, the 'standing' ones
are just figments of your imagination.
...

Or, EXACTLY, in the way resonance is a figment of the imagination ...
ROFLOL!

JS

Dave wrote:
"Yuri Blanarovich" wrote in message
...
the REAL answer is that the 'standing' wave is a creation of
experimenters 100 years ago who didn't have the impedance, current, and
voltage measurement tools we have today, and didn't know of or understand
superposition. 'standing' waves are nothing but a result of
superposition of the forward and reflected waves, they have no physical
significance beyond that. it is worthless to talk about power or energy
in them since they can always be broken down into the component waves
which make more sense to work with.

Dave

Whoa!
No physical significance?
Like there is no frying the Hustler loading coil from the bottom up (due
to standing wave current) or corona flames from the tip (due to high SW
voltage) when applying a bit of "worthless" power?

Yuri

not due to 'standing' waves... that is due to the superposition of the
forward and reflected waves. They are the real waves, the 'standing' ones
are just figments of your imagination.



Superposition doesn't work in the environment Yuri described. You've
been hanging around Cecil too long.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Tom Donaly wrote:

...
Superposition doesn't work in the environment Yuri described. You've
been hanging around Cecil too long.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Better yet, in a mixer, where two frequencies are combined/mixed to come
up with a unique third freq which is then amplified, say to a KW, and
used to xmit a signal carrying data--well, this third signal is only a
figment of our imagination!

strange ... the power of imagination.

JS

"Dave" wrote in message
news:O5ibj.1026$Pt6.868@trndny07...

"Yuri Blanarovich" wrote in message
...

the REAL answer is that the 'standing' wave is a creation of
experimenters 100 years ago who didn't have the impedance, current, and
voltage measurement tools we have today, and didn't know of or
understand superposition. 'standing' waves are nothing but a result of
superposition of the forward and reflected waves, they have no physical
significance beyond that. it is worthless to talk about power or energy
in them since they can always be broken down into the component waves
which make more sense to work with.

Dave


Whoa!
No physical significance?
Like there is no frying the Hustler loading coil from the bottom up (due
to standing wave current) or corona flames from the tip (due to high SW
voltage) when applying a bit of "worthless" power?

Yuri

not due to 'standing' waves... that is due to the superposition of the
forward and reflected waves. They are the real waves, the 'standing' ones
are just figments of your imagination.

....and Kraus, Terman, Jasik who imagined standing wave antennas?
So what is the superposition of forward and reflected waves?
Laying down waves? :-)

Cecil, I admire your patience!

Yuri

John Smith wrote:
Tom Donaly wrote:

...
Superposition doesn't work in the environment Yuri described. You've
been hanging around Cecil too long.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Better yet, in a mixer, where two frequencies are combined/mixed to come
up with a unique third freq which is then amplified, say to a KW, and
used to xmit a signal carrying data--well, this third signal is only a
figment of our imagination!

strange ... the power of imagination.

JS

Better yet, a true white noise generator where all frequencies exist
simultaneously, just set your filter to the one you want ...

JS