Grounding in Sand
 

Sometime in May I expect to be moving into a new house, built on
Pacific Northwest coastal Sand. It is at 100' elevation about 1/3 mile
from where the Siuslaw river dumps into the Pacific Ocean.

In the past, I usually drive at least one decent 8' ground rod outside
my shack for a station ground, but am wondering what you guys might advise
in this regard with having sand instead of dirt.


Ed K7AAT

Grounding in Sand
 

"Ed_G" wrote in message
. 192.196...


Sometime in May I expect to be moving into a new house, built on
Pacific Northwest coastal Sand. It is at 100' elevation about 1/3 mile
from where the Siuslaw river dumps into the Pacific Ocean.

In the past, I usually drive at least one decent 8' ground rod outside
my shack for a station ground, but am wondering what you guys might
advise
in this regard with having sand instead of dirt.


Ed K7AAT

longer fatter rods, more of them, add horizontal buried radials, the same
thing you would do in any other poor grounding situation... except in sand
its much easier to bury radials and drive more rods than if you are sitting
on rock, so do more of it.

Grounding in Sand
 

In article . 196,
"Ed_G" wrote:

Sometime in May I expect to be moving into a new house, built on
Pacific Northwest coastal Sand. It is at 100' elevation about 1/3 mile
from where the Siuslaw river dumps into the Pacific Ocean.

In the past, I usually drive at least one decent 8' ground rod outside
my shack for a station ground, but am wondering what you guys might advise
in this regard with having sand instead of dirt.


Ed K7AAT

To bad you can't get at the ReBar in the concrete pad your new house may
be built on. That grid, if tied together properly, would make a JimDandy
Low Impedance RF Ground.

--
Bruce in alaska
add path after fast to reply

Grounding in Sand
 

Bruce in alaska wrote:
In article . 196,
"Ed_G" wrote:

Sometime in May I expect to be moving into a new house, built on
Pacific Northwest coastal Sand. It is at 100' elevation about 1/3 mile
from where the Siuslaw river dumps into the Pacific Ocean.

In the past, I usually drive at least one decent 8' ground rod outside
my shack for a station ground, but am wondering what you guys might advise
in this regard with having sand instead of dirt.


Ed K7AAT

To bad you can't get at the ReBar in the concrete pad your new house may
be built on. That grid, if tied together properly, would make a JimDandy
Low Impedance RF Ground.


Locate a piece of rebar in the concrete and carefully chip the concrete
away until you reach the metal. Then attach a heavy gage wire to the
rebar and close the hole with concrete patch. You will now have access
to the grounding grid.

Dave WD9BDZ

Grounding in Sand
 

longer fatter rods, more of them, add horizontal buried radials, the
same thing you would do in any other poor grounding situation...
except in sand its much easier to bury radials and drive more rods
than if you are sitting on rock, so do more of it.



Thanks, Dave. That is probably what I may do, I don't want to be
putting in overkill for my situation ( that would be rods every 8 feet
all around the house and connected by #0 copper! ). I'm more interested
in grounding for electrical safety than lightning protection. I'll
probably just put in two or three standard 8' rods and connect them with
large copper cable. My question was aimed more at wondering how
effective for this purpose a ground rod or three would be in sand......

And thanks to those who mentioned the rebar grid... but this house is
on pillars, with rebar only in the perimeter foundation.... and well
embedded in the center of the concrete, at that, so as to preclude any
access.


Ed K7AAT

Grounding in Sand
 

Ed_G wrote:

Thanks, Dave. That is probably what I may do, I don't want to be
putting in overkill for my situation ( that would be rods every 8 feet
all around the house and connected by #0 copper! ). I'm more interested
in grounding for electrical safety than lightning protection. I'll
probably just put in two or three standard 8' rods and connect them with
large copper cable. My question was aimed more at wondering how
effective for this purpose a ground rod or three would be in sand......

And thanks to those who mentioned the rebar grid... but this house is
on pillars, with rebar only in the perimeter foundation.... and well
embedded in the center of the concrete, at that, so as to preclude any
access.

For an electrical safety ground, you should follow the requirements of
the National Electrical Code (NEC).

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Grounding in Sand
 

"Roy Lewallen" wrote in message
...
Ed_G wrote:

Thanks, Dave. That is probably what I may do, I don't want to be
putting in overkill for my situation ( that would be rods every 8 feet
all around the house and connected by #0 copper! ). I'm more interested
in grounding for electrical safety than lightning protection. I'll
probably just put in two or three standard 8' rods and connect them with
large copper cable. My question was aimed more at wondering how
effective for this purpose a ground rod or three would be in sand......

And thanks to those who mentioned the rebar grid... but this house is
on pillars, with rebar only in the perimeter foundation.... and well
embedded in the center of the concrete, at that, so as to preclude any
access.

For an electrical safety ground, you should follow the requirements of the
National Electrical Code (NEC).

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

That was my thinking for electrical safety and not for RF. Local conditions
vary and change over the years.

Ask the building inspector what is required for your area. In my area it is
two 8 foot ground rods spaced so far apart. I don't deal with the codes so
can not tell the distance, but it is probably around 6 feet apart and
connected by a continious conductor back to the breaker box. I think it is
atleast # 6 copper wire for the ground.

Whatever you do , connect all the grounds around the house together,
including the antenna and cable/phone lines if you have them.

Grounding in Sand
 

"David G. Nagel" wrote in message
et...
Locate a piece of rebar in the concrete and carefully chip the concrete
away until you reach the metal. Then attach a heavy gage wire to the rebar
and close the hole with concrete patch. You will now have access to the
grounding grid.

Dave WD9BDZ

One should never have any rebar exposed to the air. It will rust and expand
breaking the concrete. If put in correctly, it will be about 3 inches
inside the concrete.

Grounding in Sand
 

For an electrical safety ground, you should follow the requirements of
the National Electrical Code (NEC).

Roy Lewallen, W7EL


True, but rather impractical for most hams, I suspect. I would
have to run a #6 or larger cable over 100' to bond the ground rod just
outside my ham shack to the building power entry ground.

So.... would I be better off just relying on the wall outlet ground
to my equipment? I'm just looking for electrical power safety, plus a
little help in possible static dissipation.


Ed K7AAT

Grounding in Sand
 

On 24 Feb 2008 19:57:16 GMT, "Ed_G"
wrote:

True, but rather impractical for most hams, I suspect.

Hi Ed,

The risk of life is a major issue of practicality.

I would
have to run a #6 or larger cable over 100' to bond the ground rod just
outside my ham shack to the building power entry ground.

I will take your word for it and presume that it also conforms to
code.

So.... would I be better off just relying on the wall outlet ground
to my equipment? I'm just looking for electrical power safety, plus a
little help in possible static dissipation.

OK, let's say for the sake of argument that you did NOT do the 100'
tying together of grounds. Let's further consider why there are
ground rods driven and linked in the first place = all grounds are not
all at the same potential. Hint: ground is inhabited by both
resistances and currents. Those currents through those resistances
create a potential difference. I am not speaking of "static" but
honest to goodness 60Hz power.

I can full well anticipate that you are bridging this potential with a
coaxial cable out to a remote feed point - not uncommon at all.

Let's take that to be a fact and proceed to another common action that
is frequently taken. Let's say you are having problems with noise in
your rigs, or strange modulations riding on your signal, or tuning
issues. You might reach for the antenna connector behind your tuner.
The tuner is strapped to ground, and the cable's coaxial shield
supplies this ground to that remote drive point.

As you lean over the tuner, you hold it with one hand, you grab the
coax connector shell, unscrew it and as it separates from the jack
connection the ground currents seek the path formerly through the coax
shield and instead travel through you, hand to hand - across the
heart, and you are killed.

Where do we send the flowers?

p.s. By the way, all those problems I described that caused you to
remove that connector? They come from poor grounding exactly as
described.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Grounding in Sand
 

Ed_G wrote:
For an electrical safety ground, you should follow the requirements of
the National Electrical Code (NEC).

Roy Lewallen, W7EL


True, but rather impractical for most hams, I suspect. I would
have to run a #6 or larger cable over 100' to bond the ground rod just
outside my ham shack to the building power entry ground.

So.... would I be better off just relying on the wall outlet ground
to my equipment? I'm just looking for electrical power safety, plus a
little help in possible static dissipation.

The whole purpose of wall outlet grounds is electrical safety. You
should hope your wall outlet ground is connected to a ground system
which conforms to the NEC. If not, you might be facing some hazards when
using electrical appliances, and might have trouble collecting insurance
money if an electrical fire ever happens. I don't see much purpose in
making another ground system if your home electrical system is properly
grounded according to code. If it isn't, you'd better spend your effort
in bringing it up to code, then using it for electrical safety.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Grounding in Sand
 

"Richard Clark" wrote in message
...
On 24 Feb 2008 19:57:16 GMT, "Ed_G"
wrote:

True, but rather impractical for most hams, I suspect.

Hi Ed,

The risk of life is a major issue of practicality.
Let's take that to be a fact and proceed to another common action that
is frequently taken. Let's say you are having problems with noise in
your rigs, or strange modulations riding on your signal, or tuning
issues. You might reach for the antenna connector behind your tuner.
The tuner is strapped to ground, and the cable's coaxial shield
supplies this ground to that remote drive point.

As you lean over the tuner, you hold it with one hand, you grab the
coax connector shell, unscrew it and as it separates from the jack
connection the ground currents seek the path formerly through the coax
shield and instead travel through you, hand to hand - across the
heart, and you are killed.

Where do we send the flowers?

p.s. By the way, all those problems I described that caused you to
remove that connector? They come from poor grounding exactly as
described.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC


Something like this hapened at a repeater. The power company had lost its
neutral comming into the repeater building. The antenna was going to be
changed out and when the man on the tower unhooked the coax from the antenna
(up around 100 feet on the tower) he got a bad shock. Good thing he had on
a good full body safety harnnes.

The only ground was the tower ground as the ground wire from the meter or
fuse box had been taken off. All the power had been comming through the
coax from the repeater cabinet to ground.

Grounding in Sand
 

The whole purpose of wall outlet grounds is electrical safety. You
should hope your wall outlet ground is connected to a ground system
which conforms to the NEC. If not, you might be facing some hazards
when
using electrical appliances, and might have trouble collecting
insurance
money if an electrical fire ever happens. I don't see much purpose in
making another ground system if your home electrical system is
properly
grounded according to code. If it isn't, you'd better spend your
effort
in bringing it up to code, then using it for electrical safety.


OK. I may now consider that my electrical outlet will provide the
necessariy equipment ground.

Just to present the facts, this is a brand new home with brand new
electrical service in a nearly new neighborhood with new electrical
underground services.... so I must assume that everything was done
properly and to new to have deteriorated.

Secondly, in reference to my grounding my equipment, No, I would
not be relying on coax shields for grounding. My reference to my own
ground system outside the shack was for a DC ground for each and every
piece of my shack equipment which would be tied individually to a common
shack ground bonded by large cable to an outside ground system.

( Richard, you anticipated my ground intentions incorrectly as I
would never use a coax connection for grounding.... ) But I do
understand ground currents.... so perhaps I'd be better off just letting
the equipment ground itself through the Outlet's little bitty #12 wire
all the way back to the meter box ground.)


Ed K7AAT

Grounding in Sand
 

On 25 Feb 2008 02:40:48 GMT, "Ed_G"
wrote:

( Richard, you anticipated my ground intentions incorrectly as I
would never use a coax connection for grounding.... ) But I do
understand ground currents.... so perhaps I'd be better off just letting
the equipment ground itself through the Outlet's little bitty #12 wire
all the way back to the meter box ground.)

Hi Ed,

I may have incorrectly anticipated, but you haven't really described
any ground out at that remote point that was tied into the safety
ground at the service entrance - unless it is in this reference to
"little bitty #12 wire."

Do you have remote power through 100' of #12? It isn't clear. If you
don't and the far end is floating perhaps you are driving a dipole,
that too isn't clear - so then, no remote ground is called for.

However, as you are 100 feet up, looking over the dunes along the
coast (I imagine) out over the sea, this is a natural site for a
vertical for DX. Ground would be called for and we return to
potential differences.

So, to reduce any future "anticipation," is the remote site bonded to
the service ground of your home?

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Grounding in Sand
 

So, to reduce any future "anticipation," is the remote site bonded to
the service ground of your home?



Let me rephrase my situation.

New house near completion. My shack will be at the far corner from
the power service entrance.

I was thinking of just putting a couple ground rods ( bonded together
) just outside my ham shack and letting them be my equipment chassis
ground, probably through a #6 wire from shack to ground rods. My intent
was primarily for DC safety, plus a little 'static' dissipation.

As pointed out by one of you guys, I should meet NEC code, which
would mandate my bonding this separate ground I would install with the
house service entrance ground. My problem with that is that it would
require a run of cable from the ground rods at least 100 feet to get
down and around the house to the service entrance. This is not really
practical nor desirable on my part.

While I understand the potential for ground loops, I deem it a
rather small likelyhood in relation to the static dissipation benefit
I'd get with the closer separate ground I could install. Others here
seem to disagree with me, so I closed my previous post with the comment
that perhaps I'd be better off forgetting my shack ground and just let
the equipment be grounded through the individual power cords to the
outlet ground.

Now that I may have cleared my situation up, what do you guys
think?


Ed K7AAT

PS: Richard, just missing a view of the Pacific... about a half of a
mile away ... and I may reconsider a vertical antenna instead of the
dipole I was going to use.

Grounding in Sand
 

Ed_G wrote:

Let me rephrase my situation.

New house near completion. My shack will be at the far corner from
the power service entrance.

I was thinking of just putting a couple ground rods ( bonded together
) just outside my ham shack and letting them be my equipment chassis
ground, probably through a #6 wire from shack to ground rods. My intent
was primarily for DC safety, plus a little 'static' dissipation.

As pointed out by one of you guys, I should meet NEC code, which
would mandate my bonding this separate ground I would install with the
house service entrance ground. My problem with that is that it would
require a run of cable from the ground rods at least 100 feet to get
down and around the house to the service entrance. This is not really
practical nor desirable on my part.

While I understand the potential for ground loops, I deem it a
rather small likelyhood in relation to the static dissipation benefit
I'd get with the closer separate ground I could install. Others here
seem to disagree with me, so I closed my previous post with the comment
that perhaps I'd be better off forgetting my shack ground and just let
the equipment be grounded through the individual power cords to the
outlet ground.

Now that I may have cleared my situation up, what do you guys
think?


Ed K7AAT

PS: Richard, just missing a view of the Pacific... about a half of a
mile away ... and I may reconsider a vertical antenna instead of the
dipole I was going to use.

I still recommend just using the outlet ground.

I don't think you'd accomplish anything by adding the ground rods you
mention, and it might even cause a hazard as some others have said. It
certainly won't be any better than your household wiring system ground
for safety or static discharge. What I would do is make sure all your
equipment is grounded through the household wiring safety (outlet)
ground. Its purpose is electrical safety, and that's what it's designed,
installed, and inspected for. Ungrounded equipment can be connected to
grounded equipment or to the mains safety ground -- if it has a power
cord, replace the cord with a 3-wire cord and connect the safety ground
to the chassis and cabinet.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Grounding in Sand
 

On Feb 24, 11:37 am, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:
"David G. Nagel" wrote in odigy.net...

Locate a piece of rebar in the concrete and carefully chip the concrete
away until you reach the metal. Then attach a heavy gage wire to the rebar
and close the hole with concrete patch. You will now have access to the
grounding grid.

Dave WD9BDZ

One should never have any rebar exposed to the air. It will rust and expand
breaking the concrete. If put in correctly, it will be about 3 inches
inside the concrete.

Correct, Ralph. Also, NEVER allow the possibility of a lightening
strike to enter rebar in concrete. You will explode the concrete
because of the tremendous localized heating. There goes your
foundation and/or pad your house is setting on. The building
inspectors in Central Oregon do check the footings and foundation
before concrete is poured and would quickly notice a connection from
the rebar to the outside world.

Paul, KD7HB
Redmond, OR

Grounding in Sand
 

On 25 Feb 2008 04:11:58 GMT, "Ed_G"
wrote:


So, to reduce any future "anticipation," is the remote site bonded to
the service ground of your home?



Let me rephrase my situation.

New house near completion. My shack will be at the far corner from
the power service entrance.

I was thinking of just putting a couple ground rods ( bonded together
) just outside my ham shack and letting them be my equipment chassis
ground, probably through a #6 wire from shack to ground rods. My intent
was primarily for DC safety, plus a little 'static' dissipation.

As pointed out by one of you guys, I should meet NEC code, which
would mandate my bonding this separate ground I would install with the
house service entrance ground. My problem with that is that it would
require a run of cable from the ground rods at least 100 feet to get
down and around the house to the service entrance. This is not really
practical nor desirable on my part.


After you take your first couple of lightning strikes you will feel
that a 100' of #6 ground wire to the power ground for the antenna
system ground is a simple requirementl.

I will probably never build another house but if I do, the first
consideration will be proper grounding for both NEC and lightning
protection.

Experience has led me to believe that if you cannot tie a new ground
rod back to the panel ground you should not have the ground rod.

John Ferrell W8CCW
"Life is easier if you learn to
plow around the stumps"

Grounding in Sand
 

Grounding in Sand
 

Interesting. Here in Florida, the lightning capital of the continental
US, the ordinary electrical service grounding mechanism is *only* via
bonding to the metal in the foundation. New house construction will not
pass inspection without such a connection unless other more complex
arrangements are fashioned. There are typically no driven ground rods, and
water pipes are usually non-conductive. (The NEC no longer allows water
pipes to serve as the sole ground in any case.)

73,
Gene
W4SZ

Must be a recent rules change Gene. I used to manufacture and sell an
instrument to the power companies in FL, a meter that they would connect
between one 120 Volt leg of the service drop and the residential ground rod,
and drive the rod for a 25 Ohm ground. Typically, if they were installing
pad mount transformers for underground service, they would install another
ground rod there.

The Withlacoochee Co-Op, which serviced some of the highest sand dunes in
FL, would often drive 60 feet of ground rod to reach the required
conductance.

W4ZCB

Grounding in Sand
 

Harold E. Johnson wrote:
Interesting. Here in Florida, the lightning capital of the continental
US, the ordinary electrical service grounding mechanism is *only* via
bonding to the metal in the foundation. New house construction will not
pass inspection without such a connection unless other more complex
arrangements are fashioned. There are typically no driven ground rods, and
water pipes are usually non-conductive. (The NEC no longer allows water
pipes to serve as the sole ground in any case.)

73,
Gene
W4SZ

Must be a recent rules change Gene. I used to manufacture and sell an
instrument to the power companies in FL, a meter that they would connect
between one 120 Volt leg of the service drop and the residential ground rod,
and drive the rod for a 25 Ohm ground. Typically, if they were installing
pad mount transformers for underground service, they would install another
ground rod there.

The Withlacoochee Co-Op, which serviced some of the highest sand dunes in
FL, would often drive 60 feet of ground rod to reach the required
conductance.

W4ZCB



I don't know when the change was made. I discovered this rule when our
house was being built in 2003. I noticed that there were no ground rods,
and I started asking questions and looking into the code. Florida
follows the NEC without exception. No modifications or local electrical
codes are allowed. Of course the AHJ can override almost anything if he
decides to.

As you know, the electrical utilities generally are not bound by the NEC
or other codes. They follow their own rules. Also, there are a lot of
preexisting cases where the foundation steel is not connected to the
outside of the concrete. Ground rods must be used. In those cases your
ground-checker instrument would still be useful.

73,
Gene
W4SZ

Grounding in Sand
 

I don't know when the change was made. I discovered this rule when our
house was being built in 2003. I noticed that there were no ground rods,
and I started asking questions and looking into the code. Florida follows
the NEC without exception. No modifications or local electrical codes are
allowed. Of course the AHJ can override almost anything if he decides to.

As you know, the electrical utilities generally are not bound by the NEC
or other codes. They follow their own rules. Also, there are a lot of
preexisting cases where the foundation steel is not connected to the
outside of the concrete. Ground rods must be used. In those cases your
ground-checker instrument would still be useful.

73,
Gene
W4SZ

I should have put a smiley face somewhere in the same zip code with the
"recent" Gene. My experience ended in 1986 when I retired. Back then, (And
for a good many years before) it was known as a "NEMA" Ground and 25 Ohms
was the value.

I had a country home near Brooksville, FL, with some acreage and 5 towers
(Tallest 160 feet) for a little contesting. Being there only on weekends, it
WAS a fairly high maintenance property. Hardly a time when I went there that
there was not evidence of some lightning damage, even with considerable
effort to minimize it. Before cell phones, I was close to being the highest
thing in the county.

Regards
W4ZCB

Grounding in Sand
 

Harold E. Johnson wrote:
I don't know when the change was made. I discovered this rule when our
house was being built in 2003. I noticed that there were no ground rods,
and I started asking questions and looking into the code. Florida follows
the NEC without exception. No modifications or local electrical codes are
allowed. Of course the AHJ can override almost anything if he decides to.

As you know, the electrical utilities generally are not bound by the NEC
or other codes. They follow their own rules. Also, there are a lot of
preexisting cases where the foundation steel is not connected to the
outside of the concrete. Ground rods must be used. In those cases your
ground-checker instrument would still be useful.

73,
Gene
W4SZ


I should have put a smiley face somewhere in the same zip code with the
"recent" Gene. My experience ended in 1986 when I retired. Back then, (And
for a good many years before) it was known as a "NEMA" Ground and 25 Ohms
was the value.

I had a country home near Brooksville, FL, with some acreage and 5 towers
(Tallest 160 feet) for a little contesting. Being there only on weekends, it
WAS a fairly high maintenance property. Hardly a time when I went there that
there was not evidence of some lightning damage, even with considerable
effort to minimize it. Before cell phones, I was close to being the highest
thing in the county.

Regards
W4ZCB


Here of course we are talking about a safety ground connection. But for
RF grounding you could you a counterpoise to your antenna. Just a wire
array under the antenna system as used in the western desert in WW2.
That would help to make the performance of your antennas more
predictable at any rate.
Here in NZ I am having ground troubles in a new subdivision. On a heavy
clay soil with a reasonably heavy annual rainfall ~50 inches/year.
The utility company appears to have very badly balanced the 3 phase
underground power phases and it looks like we have quite a high current
circulating between local grounds on our mains earth neutral system.
Result, a lot of rf noise coming up the ground connection and even being
radiated into antennas on local AM radio and ham equipment. They have
been working on the problem but after 8 months we still have an s6/7
noise level across the HF bands.
We are still on their case however.
73's cliff wright ZL1BDA.