WiFi Link from top of tower
 

Hello fellow HRO's

I've got a 50ft tower w/ rotor. Been thinking mounting a 2.4 Ghz WiFi
antenna on the rotor to see what it picks up in way of WAP / WLAN's

To get around cable loss problem was going to put a USB adapter at antenna
then run USB cable up tower. Have tested USB at ~ 5X it's spec'd range but
suspect the 60 - 70' run will be way too long.

Anyone know of a way to 'remodulate' so to speak to 802.11 wirelessly link
the output from the antenna mounted adapter back to computer?

Thanks for any thoughts

Bob

W4NNG

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

W4NNG wrote:
Hello fellow HRO's

I've got a 50ft tower w/ rotor. Been thinking mounting a 2.4 Ghz WiFi
antenna on the rotor to see what it picks up in way of WAP / WLAN's

To get around cable loss problem was going to put a USB adapter at antenna
then run USB cable up tower. Have tested USB at ~ 5X it's spec'd range but
suspect the 60 - 70' run will be way too long.

Anyone know of a way to 'remodulate' so to speak to 802.11 wirelessly link
the output from the antenna mounted adapter back to computer?
==============================
You might wish to consider a wireless router ,with detachable antenna
instead ,either with a standard antenna ,all in a wx-proof enclosure or
with an external high gain antenna.
The advantage of using a router is using a ethernet (cat5) cable of any
length. You obviously have to strap a 12V-DC power cable to the cat5
cable for 'feeding' the router.
The router produces enough heat to keep itself dry in its wx proof
enclosure.

When using a USB2 wireless adaptor you will need special amplifying 5
metres long cables (I believe up to 3 can be put in series making the
max length approx 15 metres which is short of your 20+ metres
Moreover you would have to wx-proof the joints which contain the amplifiers
When using a USB adapter you might be in a position to fit this device
in the focal point of a satellite dish which with its high gain (but
being directive) would possibly not necessitate installation on top of a
mast , enabling a shorter distance to your 'service point'
Just some ideas ..........


Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

W4NNG wrote:
Hello fellow HRO's

I've got a 50ft tower w/ rotor. Been thinking mounting a 2.4 Ghz WiFi
antenna on the rotor to see what it picks up in way of WAP / WLAN's

To get around cable loss problem was going to put a USB adapter at antenna
then run USB cable up tower. Have tested USB at ~ 5X it's spec'd range but
suspect the 60 - 70' run will be way too long.

Anyone know of a way to 'remodulate' so to speak to 802.11 wirelessly link
the output from the antenna mounted adapter back to computer?

Thanks for any thoughts

Bob

W4NNG




Use ethernet up the tower and PoE (Power over Ethernet). There's lots of
off the shelf solutions here.

RF interference to/from the Ethernet (or USB for that matter) would be
an issue.

You can also do fiber optics (for ethernet, you can pick up
ethernet:fiber media converters surplus quite cheaply.. Then it's just
the fiber cable with connectors already attached, which can be found
fairly inexpensively, if you scrounge. Fiber is cheaper than coax, in
general.)

Or, as someone else suggested, use a second wireless adapter with a
directional antenna to bridge it to your shack. Then all you need up
the tower is DC power.

You might be able to do it with something like a single WRT54, too.

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

Thanks for all the suggestions

Don't understand the '... second wireless adapter ...' suggestion? where's
it get power?

I've got an EUB-362EXT adapter. (has an SMA connect) Was the longest range
device I could find. Antenna will be connected directly to it, rather than
using the adapter dipole inserted inside a reflector

FWIW - The EUB adapter significantly out-performs a low cost linksys usb
adapter both using their own antenna's. Parked at same location linksys
found 2 WAP's the EUB found 8


"Jim Lux" wrote in message
...
W4NNG wrote:
Hello fellow HRO's

I've got a 50ft tower w/ rotor. Been thinking mounting a 2.4 Ghz WiFi
antenna on the rotor to see what it picks up in way of WAP / WLAN's

To get around cable loss problem was going to put a USB adapter at antenna
then run USB cable up tower. Have tested USB at ~ 5X it's spec'd range
but
suspect the 60 - 70' run will be way too long.

Anyone know of a way to 'remodulate' so to speak to 802.11 wirelessly link
the output from the antenna mounted adapter back to computer?

Thanks for any thoughts

Bob

W4NNG




Use ethernet up the tower and PoE (Power over Ethernet). There's lots of
off the shelf solutions here.

RF interference to/from the Ethernet (or USB for that matter) would be
an issue.

You can also do fiber optics (for ethernet, you can pick up
ethernet:fiber media converters surplus quite cheaply.. Then it's just
the fiber cable with connectors already attached, which can be found
fairly inexpensively, if you scrounge. Fiber is cheaper than coax, in
general.)

Or, as someone else suggested, use a second wireless adapter with a
directional antenna to bridge it to your shack. Then all you need up
the tower is DC power.

You might be able to do it with something like a single WRT54, too.

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

" W4NNG" wrote in message
...
Thanks for all the suggestions

Don't understand the '... second wireless adapter ...' suggestion?
where's
it get power?

I've got an EUB-362EXT adapter. (has an SMA connect) Was the longest
range
device I could find. Antenna will be connected directly to it, rather
than
using the adapter dipole inserted inside a reflector

FWIW - The EUB adapter significantly out-performs a low cost linksys usb
adapter both using their own antenna's. Parked at same location linksys
found 2 WAP's the EUB found 8


Hi Bob

It would seem that Frank's (KN6WH) suggestion about using a Bridge or
Router, or Switch avoids alot of the USB limitations. Have you tried using
a CAT 5 device located at the top of the tower?
I thought the CAT 5 devices were far better than USB for remote WiFi.
But, if you have data / experience that shows otherwise, I'd like to learn
more about why the USB is chosen.

Jerry KD6JDJ

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

Maybe I am missing something here, but if you put a wireless router at the
top of the tower why do you need anything else other than power up the mast?
You can can talk to the router locally over the air without the need for a
cable connection.

Jeff

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

Jeff wrote:
Maybe I am missing something here, but if you put a wireless router at the
top of the tower why do you need anything else other than power up the mast?
You can can talk to the router locally over the air without the need for a
cable connection.
========================================
In that case you need 2 routers ,R-1 in top of the mast with a
(sensitive) internal or external antenna having one of its ethernet
ports connected to an ethernet port of the second wireless router R-2
serving as a wireless bridge and fitted lower on the mast ,having a not
so sensitive antenna but sufficient for communication with any wireless
router or adapter inside the house/shack.
R-2 should be set to communicate on an 'extremity' channel say channel
13 ,which will hopefully not be needed by R-1. This to avoid that the 2
routers 'bite' each other .

A (wireless) router is a bi-directional input-output device .
When the wireless side is receiving it passes the information on to the
ethernet port serving as output and vice versa.

Hope the above makes sense


Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

In that case you need 2 routers ,R-1 in top of the mast with a (sensitive)
internal or external antenna having one of its ethernet ports connected to
an ethernet port of the second wireless router R-2 serving as a wireless
bridge and fitted lower on the mast ,having a not so sensitive antenna but
sufficient for communication with any wireless router or adapter inside
the house/shack.
R-2 should be set to communicate on an 'extremity' channel say channel 13
,which will hopefully not be needed by R-1. This to avoid that the 2
routers 'bite' each other .

A (wireless) router is a bi-directional input-output device .
When the wireless side is receiving it passes the information on to the
ethernet port serving as output and vice versa.

Hope the above makes sense



Surely all you need is a wireless card in the pc that you wish to connect to
the router on the mast. If you happen to have a router in the house as well
it is no different to your next door neighbour having a WiFi network. You
just connect to whichever router you wish to.

Jeff

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

W4NNG wrote:
Thanks for all the suggestions

Don't understand the '... second wireless adapter ...' suggestion? where's
it get power?


if you set up two wireless to ethernet bridges back to back you can use
the second to relay the traffic on the "wide area" one back to your
shack. (e.g. the "remodulate" function asked for). You could also just
use a single 802.11 device up top, configured as an access point in
infrastructure mode, with no ethernet connected. It will repeat out all
the packets, and, so, with a directional antenna at the shack pointed at
your towertop AP you can communicate. However, managing the AP will be a
challenge, especially if there's an RFI issue.

Power would be separately supplied, but you can put a small regulated DC
supply up at the top. My own preference would be to use a quiet DC/DC
converter with wide input range, so you don't care about voltage drop on
the wires heading up.



I've got an EUB-362EXT adapter. (has an SMA connect) Was the longest range
device I could find. Antenna will be connected directly to it, rather than
using the adapter dipole inserted inside a reflector

FWIW - The EUB adapter significantly out-performs a low cost linksys usb
adapter both using their own antenna's. Parked at same location linksys
found 2 WAP's the EUB found 8


"Jim Lux" wrote in message
...
W4NNG wrote:

Hello fellow HRO's

I've got a 50ft tower w/ rotor. Been thinking mounting a 2.4 Ghz WiFi
antenna on the rotor to see what it picks up in way of WAP / WLAN's

To get around cable loss problem was going to put a USB adapter at antenna
then run USB cable up tower. Have tested USB at ~ 5X it's spec'd range

but

suspect the 60 - 70' run will be way too long.

Anyone know of a way to 'remodulate' so to speak to 802.11 wirelessly link
the output from the antenna mounted adapter back to computer?

Thanks for any thoughts

Bob

W4NNG





Use ethernet up the tower and PoE (Power over Ethernet). There's lots of
off the shelf solutions here.

RF interference to/from the Ethernet (or USB for that matter) would be
an issue.

You can also do fiber optics (for ethernet, you can pick up
ethernet:fiber media converters surplus quite cheaply.. Then it's just
the fiber cable with connectors already attached, which can be found
fairly inexpensively, if you scrounge. Fiber is cheaper than coax, in
general.)

Or, as someone else suggested, use a second wireless adapter with a
directional antenna to bridge it to your shack. Then all you need up
the tower is DC power.

You might be able to do it with something like a single WRT54, too.

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

Jeff wrote:
Maybe I am missing something here, but if you put a wireless router at the
top of the tower why do you need anything else other than power up the mast?
You can can talk to the router locally over the air without the need for a
cable connection.

Jeff



there are some practical details. For one thing, a lot of wireless
access points don't provide full control functionality over the wireless
port (for security, among other reasons). For instance, changing the
RF channel number is trickier "over the air".


The other thing has to do with available data bandwidth.. 802.11 PHY
is essentially a half duplex protocol (i.e. it doesn't Tx and Rx at the
same time). If you set up two units back to back, you can run the
second link on a different channel for your "shack to tower" link, so
those packets don't have to go over the air on the "tower top" unit.


Lots of possibilities, lots of ways to do it.

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

Jerry wrote:
If this was *my* project, I'd install a Wireless Bridge at the top of the
tower and supply it with both a CAT 5 cable and a pair of wires to power it.
I'd also have a Router at the ground for connection to the LAN.
What would be the problem with installing a Wireless Switch atop the tower
with it's CAT 5 and power wires to allow the ground based computer with its
RJ 45 port to "see" the signals from the nearby wireles sites? Wouldnt
that allow using only one CAT 5 device? Then, it is possible to connect to
the Internet (thru any WiFi site you are able to receive and enter) with
only one Wireless device.
I I thought it was possible to connect to the Internet with only one
Wireless device. And, a CAT 5 cable device is far better than a USB cable
for long cable runs.

You can also create a "MESH" network where the router acts as an access
point relaying data between nodes. I have a Linksys access point that
will do it with others of the same model, and the famous Linksys
WRTG54-L running one of the Linux distributions for it (for example
Tomato) can do it.

Then all you need is a router running a similar system near the
base of the tower, and one on top of it.

Using a gain antenna is also possible to increase your range, but
you have to be careful about gain. In the U.S. you can increase
the output power 10 times (from 100mw EIRP to 1W EIRP) for mobile
devices (up to 4W EIRP for directional point to point links).

Here in Israel, there is a limit of 100mW EIRP, no matter what,
even for licensed hams (25W limit for satellite use only).

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

Jerry wrote:
"Highland Ham" wrote in message
...

Jeff wrote:

In that case you need 2 routers ,R-1 in top of the mast with a
(sensitive) internal or external antenna having one of its ethernet
ports connected to an ethernet port of the second wireless router R-2
serving as a wireless bridge and fitted lower on the mast ,having a not
so sensitive antenna but sufficient for communication with any wireless
router or adapter inside the house/shack.
R-2 should be set to communicate on an 'extremity' channel say channel
13 ,which will hopefully not be needed by R-1. This to avoid that the 2
routers 'bite' each other .

A (wireless) router is a bi-directional input-output device .
When the wireless side is receiving it passes the information on to the
ethernet port serving as output and vice versa.

Hope the above makes sense



Surely all you need is a wireless card in the pc that you wish to connect
to the router on the mast. If you happen to have a router in the house
as well it is no different to your next door neighbour having a WiFi
network. You just connect to whichever router you wish to.


=================
As long as you use the 2 routers connected with their ethernet ports ,with
each router on a different Wifi channel

One outdoor router on top of the mast won't be enough. When that router
receives its WiFi signal from a remote station ,it outputs that signal to
its ethernet port(s) , so in order for the indoor PC with a WiFi port to
receive that signal ,you need a WiFi bridge eg another wireless router
connected piggy-back with the one on top of the mast ; there is no escape
from it.

In the end it will highly likely be easier and more cost-effective to run
an ethernet cat5 cable from the router on top of the mast to the indoor PC
along the router's low voltage power supply cable , of course unless the
router on top of the mast has its own local battery nearby which is being
charged by a local solar panel , doing away with (long) cables altogether.


Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH


Hi Frank

I'd like to learn more about WiFi DX. So, this post is a request for
information

If this was *my* project, I'd install a Wireless Bridge at the top of the
tower and supply it with both a CAT 5 cable and a pair of wires to power it.


I'd use PowerOverEthernet (PoE).. runs the power up the Cat 5, and it's
already galvanically isolated. Off the shelf adapters to feed the power
in and take it out.

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
Jerry wrote:

If this was *my* project, I'd install a Wireless Bridge at the top of the
tower and supply it with both a CAT 5 cable and a pair of wires to power it.
I'd also have a Router at the ground for connection to the LAN.
What would be the problem with installing a Wireless Switch atop the tower
with it's CAT 5 and power wires to allow the ground based computer with its
RJ 45 port to "see" the signals from the nearby wireles sites? Wouldnt
that allow using only one CAT 5 device? Then, it is possible to connect to
the Internet (thru any WiFi site you are able to receive and enter) with
only one Wireless device.
I I thought it was possible to connect to the Internet with only one
Wireless device. And, a CAT 5 cable device is far better than a USB cable
for long cable runs.


You can also create a "MESH" network where the router acts as an access
point relaying data between nodes. I have a Linksys access point that
will do it with others of the same model, and the famous Linksys
WRTG54-L running one of the Linux distributions for it (for example
Tomato) can do it.

Then all you need is a router running a similar system near the
base of the tower, and one on top of it.

Using a gain antenna is also possible to increase your range, but
you have to be careful about gain. In the U.S. you can increase
the output power 10 times (from 100mw EIRP to 1W EIRP) for mobile
devices (up to 4W EIRP for directional point to point links).


If you want omni for the top of tower, you can put the gain antenna down
at the shack. 10-20dBi is easy to come by, and gives you a factor of
3-10 range improvement.

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

In article ,
"Jeff" wrote:

Surely all you need is a wireless card in the pc that you wish to connect to
the router on the mast. If you happen to have a router in the house as well
it is no different to your next door neighbour having a WiFi network. You
just connect to whichever router you wish to.

Jeff

Usually, WiFi Routers come with firmware, that only allow the RF Port to
communicate with the Ethernet Lan and Wan Ports, and not with other
connected client devices. This can be modified via a Open Source
firmware revision, but is NOT the usual case.
I for one, use a Buffalo AirStation G HP at the top of the tower,
feeding a 24dbi Panel Antenna. It is powered via the extra two Pairs in
the Ethernet cable, via a really nice little 9-18 Vdc Input/5 Vdc Output
Dc/Dc Switching Power Supply. This setup also has a really nice little
Trendnet IP400W Pan/Tilt/Zoom WebCam that is also connected to the Lan
side of the Router, and provides a easy way to picture the neighborhood.
Both devices, when operating, draw about 700ma and the whole system is
powered by a 12Vdc Solar charged 8D Battery, and the Dc/Dc takes care of
the voltage drop encountered in using the 24 Gauge wires in the Ethernet
Cable run of 100 ft.

--
Bruce in alaska
add path after fast to reply

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

"Jimmie D" wrote in message
...

"Jerry" wrote in message
news:xU3zj.9633$C1.1984@trnddc07...

" W4NNG" wrote in message
...
Thanks for all the suggestions

Don't understand the '... second wireless adapter ...' suggestion?
where's
it get power?

I've got an EUB-362EXT adapter. (has an SMA connect) Was the longest
range
device I could find. Antenna will be connected directly to it, rather
than
using the adapter dipole inserted inside a reflector

FWIW - The EUB adapter significantly out-performs a low cost linksys
usb
adapter both using their own antenna's. Parked at same location
linksys
found 2 WAP's the EUB found 8


Hi Bob

It would seem that Frank's (KN6WH) suggestion about using a Bridge or
Router, or Switch avoids alot of the USB limitations. Have you tried
using a CAT 5 device located at the top of the tower?
I thought the CAT 5 devices were far better than USB for remote WiFi.
But, if you have data / experience that shows otherwise, I'd like to
learn more about why the USB is chosen.

Jerry KD6JDJ

Placing a wireless router at the top of the tower is not a solution. I am
assuming of course that the OP wants to connect to other wireless routers.
I wanted to do something like this and all the computer tech people I
asked said wireless routers dont talk to each other wirelessly.

Jimmie

Hi Jimmie

I am not experienced enough to contradict computer techs. But, I have
used a *CAT 5 connected Wireless Bridge* to connect my computer to the
Internet by wirelessly connecting to a distant Wireless Router. Maybe I'm
using the wrong terminology. But, I want to indicate to the OP that using
CAT 5 rather than USB can allow the "wireless device" to be located far away
from the computer.

Jerry

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

Placing a wireless router at the top of the tower is not a solution. I am
assuming of course that the OP wants to connect to other wireless routers. I
wanted to do something like this and all the computer tech people I asked
said wireless routers dont talk to each other wirelessly.
================================
Correct ! and because of that you would need a wireless bridge
operating on a different RF channel than the wireless router which
'senses the neighbourhood'. To prevent clashes the wireless bridge
should operate on a channel not used by the other wireless router.
All of this refers to standard consumer type of routers.

Whatever , a single router connected by cat5 cable to the monitoring PC
indoors seems to be the most cost effective solution.
Cat5 can be laid underground when run in plastic water pipe ,together
with the power supply wiring for the router.

For the past 16 years our satellite dish is located away from the house.
Its 75 Ohms coax runs through 20mm OD polyethylene water pipe (blue
colour , as is nowadays standard in Europe)

Where the cable(s) leave the water pipe ,the pipe opening should point
downwards such that water ingress is prevented. The exits should be
left open to prevent condensation inside the water pipe.
I have never had a problem with any type of cable when run underground
this way.

Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

Jimmie D wrote:
"Jerry" wrote in message
news:xU3zj.9633$C1.1984@trnddc07...

" W4NNG" wrote in message
...

Thanks for all the suggestions

Don't understand the '... second wireless adapter ...' suggestion?
where's
it get power?

I've got an EUB-362EXT adapter. (has an SMA connect) Was the longest
range
device I could find. Antenna will be connected directly to it, rather
than
using the adapter dipole inserted inside a reflector

FWIW - The EUB adapter significantly out-performs a low cost linksys usb
adapter both using their own antenna's. Parked at same location linksys
found 2 WAP's the EUB found 8


Hi Bob

It would seem that Frank's (KN6WH) suggestion about using a Bridge or
Router, or Switch avoids alot of the USB limitations. Have you tried
using a CAT 5 device located at the top of the tower?
I thought the CAT 5 devices were far better than USB for remote WiFi.
But, if you have data / experience that shows otherwise, I'd like to learn
more about why the USB is chosen.

Jerry KD6JDJ


Placing a wireless router at the top of the tower is not a solution. I am
assuming of course that the OP wants to connect to other wireless routers. I
wanted to do something like this and all the computer tech people I asked
said wireless routers dont talk to each other wirelessly.

Depends on the particular wireless box. Some D-Link boxes, for
instance, have a point-to-point or point-to-multi-point capability.

Also, if the box at the top of the tower is an access point in
infrastructure mode, it essentially repeats packets that it receives.
This is so that two computers that are connected to the AP can talk to
each other.

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

Hello everyone

Like Mike, I also have the MFJ-1800. And boy was I surprised when none of
my shack full of type N to SMA adapters didn't work. I can't believe they
reversed the polarity of the center pins for WIFI SMA connectors. Urrrrgh
!!!

The router discussion is interesting I need to keep it simple. Of my
various goals one of them is to passively receive signals. At least at my
level of knowledge it will be best if the computer links directly to the
adapter.

Haven't had the chance to look around but I do like the Ethernet cable up
the tower suggestion. Is there a particularly good adapter for doing this?




"amdx" wrote in message
...

" W4NNG" wrote in message
...
Hello fellow HRO's

I've got a 50ft tower w/ rotor. Been thinking mounting a 2.4 Ghz WiFi
antenna on the rotor to see what it picks up in way of WAP / WLAN's

To get around cable loss problem was going to put a USB adapter at antenna
then run USB cable up tower. Have tested USB at ~ 5X it's spec'd range
but
suspect the 60 - 70' run will be way too long.

Anyone know of a way to 'remodulate' so to speak to 802.11 wirelessly link
the output from the antenna mounted adapter back to computer?

Thanks for any thoughts

Bob

W4NNG


Hi Bob,
I have done something similar to what you want to do. I picked up MFJs yagi
antenna MFJ-1800
http://www.mfjenterprises.com/man/pdf/MFJ-1800.pdf
and a $13.00 wireless USB adapter. I adapted an N connector to the wireless
USB adapter.
(a little troublesome, large connector, small adapter) I then connected the
N connector/adapter assy
to the yagi. I mounted the whole thing in a 4" pvc pipe. I purchased two 15
ft USB male to female cords.
I found I had intermitent performance, The problem was 30 ft of USB cords,
I cut back to one 15ft cord
and the ass'y works wonderfully. I can see over 20 wifi signals from where
I'm at, only 3 to 4 are strong
signals (over 50%, whatever that means). While trying to solve the
intermitent performance I did find
there are cords available with amplifiers built inline to extend the usable
USB cable length. I did not try
these I just moved my yagi. The others are way ahead of my knowledge
regarding the wireless router and
it's operation on top of your tower.
Mike

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

W4NNG wrote:
I surprised when none of
my shack full of type N to SMA adapters didn't work.

None of your adapters didn't work? Isn't that a
good thing? :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

Hello everyone

Like Mike, I also have the MFJ-1800. And boy was I surprised when none of
my shack full of type N to SMA adapters didn't work. I can't believe they
reversed the polarity of the center pins for WIFI SMA connectors. Urrrrgh
!!!

The FCC requires that Part 15 WiFi devices, having detachable
antennas, *must* use connectors which are not the common, generic,
off-the-shelf standard types.

This was done in order to (try to) (help) enforce the rule that Part
15 radios, and their antennas, must be certificated as a complete
system (radio + antenna), by the manufacturer or by an organization
which does the installation.

Manufacturers of such devices can perform the testing certification
with several different types of antennas, and using such antennas with
that particular device is legal (since they've been certificated as a
system).

Plugging an arbitrarily-chosen antenna into a WiFi radio (access point
or client) will void the Part 15 certification of the device, and it
becomes technically illegal to operate it. That's why a whole bunch
of nonstandard (reverse-polarity, reverse-thread, or otherwise altered
and perverted) connectors are used... the manufacturers are *trying*
to deter people from "one from column A, one from column B"
interplugging, because that's what the FCC has instructed them to do.

The rule gets about as much respect as laws against jaywalking,
littering, or cussing in South Pasadena during the first week of
March, but it's on the books ne'ertheless.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

W4NNG wrote:
Hello everyone

Like Mike, I also have the MFJ-1800. And boy was I surprised when none of
my shack full of type N to SMA adapters didn't work. I can't believe they
reversed the polarity of the center pins for WIFI SMA connectors. Urrrrgh
!!!

Required by Part 15..Has to be a connector with is "not commonly
available". Reverse Polarity SMA and TNC connectors are pretty standard
for this application, to the point where you can get adapters and jumper
cables pretty easily.

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

On Fri, 7 Mar 2008 13:18:45 -0800, (Dave Platt)
wrote:

Plugging an arbitrarily-chosen antenna into a WiFi radio (access point
or client) will void the Part 15 certification of the device, and it
becomes technically illegal to operate it.

Hi Dave,

At the risk of becoming a stockade-lawyer, I've perused the band plans
(I presume that the 13cM band has not been confiscated in the past few
years), and I think I am reasonably adept at the law in this regard.
As WiFi shares our allocation; it is noteworthy that we as amateurs
are the ONLY service that does NOT require FCC type acceptance to
operate. To my mind, the only issue is one of knowingly interfering
with a service (that doesn't seem to be an issue, however).

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

In article ,
Richard Clark wrote:

On Fri, 7 Mar 2008 13:18:45 -0800, (Dave Platt)
wrote:

Plugging an arbitrarily-chosen antenna into a WiFi radio (access point
or client) will void the Part 15 certification of the device, and it
becomes technically illegal to operate it.

Hi Dave,

At the risk of becoming a stockade-lawyer, I've perused the band plans
(I presume that the 13cM band has not been confiscated in the past few
years), and I think I am reasonably adept at the law in this regard.
As WiFi shares our allocation; it is noteworthy that we as amateurs
are the ONLY service that does NOT require FCC type acceptance to
operate. To my mind, the only issue is one of knowingly interfering
with a service (that doesn't seem to be an issue, however).

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

True Richard, HOWEVER, if your passing Internet Traffic, over your
none-Type Accepted, Amateur Licensed WiFi Link, you MUST abide by
ALL the rules of Part 97, not just the ERP Rules, including Non-
Commercial Content, and Identification.

--
Bruce in alaska
add path after fast to reply

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

"Bruce in alaska" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Richard Clark wrote:

On Fri, 7 Mar 2008 13:18:45 -0800, (Dave Platt)
wrote:

Plugging an arbitrarily-chosen antenna into a WiFi radio (access point
or client) will void the Part 15 certification of the device, and it
becomes technically illegal to operate it.

Hi Dave,

At the risk of becoming a stockade-lawyer, I've perused the band plans
(I presume that the 13cM band has not been confiscated in the past few
years), and I think I am reasonably adept at the law in this regard.
As WiFi shares our allocation; it is noteworthy that we as amateurs
are the ONLY service that does NOT require FCC type acceptance to
operate. To my mind, the only issue is one of knowingly interfering
with a service (that doesn't seem to be an issue, however).

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

True Richard, HOWEVER, if your passing Internet Traffic, over your
none-Type Accepted, Amateur Licensed WiFi Link, you MUST abide by
ALL the rules of Part 97, not just the ERP Rules, including Non-
Commercial Content, and Identification.

--
Bruce in alaska
add path after fast to reply

most, but not all, of the channels used for wifi fall in the amateur
allocation. so if you really want to be technical be sure you set the
access point on the good channels, as well as adding your call for
identification, filtering content, etc.

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

Thanks Dave -- this sure sheds a lot of light on all the odd connectors


"Dave Platt" wrote in message
...
Hello everyone

Like Mike, I also have the MFJ-1800. And boy was I surprised when none of
my shack full of type N to SMA adapters didn't work. I can't believe they
reversed the polarity of the center pins for WIFI SMA connectors.
Urrrrgh
!!!

The FCC requires that Part 15 WiFi devices, having detachable
antennas, *must* use connectors which are not the common, generic,
off-the-shelf standard types.

This was done in order to (try to) (help) enforce the rule that Part
15 radios, and their antennas, must be certificated as a complete
system (radio + antenna), by the manufacturer or by an organization
which does the installation.

Manufacturers of such devices can perform the testing certification
with several different types of antennas, and using such antennas with
that particular device is legal (since they've been certificated as a
system).

Plugging an arbitrarily-chosen antenna into a WiFi radio (access point
or client) will void the Part 15 certification of the device, and it
becomes technically illegal to operate it. That's why a whole bunch
of nonstandard (reverse-polarity, reverse-thread, or otherwise altered
and perverted) connectors are used... the manufacturers are *trying*
to deter people from "one from column A, one from column B"
interplugging, because that's what the FCC has instructed them to do.

The rule gets about as much respect as laws against jaywalking,
littering, or cussing in South Pasadena during the first week of
March, but it's on the books ne'ertheless.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

Jim Lux writes:

W4NNG wrote:
Hello everyone

Like Mike, I also have the MFJ-1800. And boy was I surprised when
none of my shack full of type N to SMA adapters didn't work. I
can't believe they reversed the polarity of the center pins for
WIFI SMA connectors. Urrrrgh !!!

Required by Part 15..Has to be a connector with is "not commonly
available". Reverse Polarity SMA and TNC connectors are pretty
standard for this application, to the point where you can get adapters
and jumper cables pretty easily.

And soon, we're going to get radios which use reverse polarity
connectors, because they're more easily available :-)

LA4RT Jon

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

Richard Clark wrote:
On Fri, 7 Mar 2008 13:18:45 -0800, (Dave Platt)
wrote:


Plugging an arbitrarily-chosen antenna into a WiFi radio (access point
or client) will void the Part 15 certification of the device, and it
becomes technically illegal to operate it.


Hi Dave,

At the risk of becoming a stockade-lawyer, I've perused the band plans
(I presume that the 13cM band has not been confiscated in the past few
years), and I think I am reasonably adept at the law in this regard.
As WiFi shares our allocation; it is noteworthy that we as amateurs
are the ONLY service that does NOT require FCC type acceptance to
operate. To my mind, the only issue is one of knowingly interfering
with a service (that doesn't seem to be an issue, however).

One does, of course, need to operate at a frequency in the ham bands
(some of the 802.11 channels are not in the ham bands...)

Some of the fancier WLAN gear is perfectly ok for Part 15 (with
appropriate antenna) but cannot work as amateur gear (because it
radiates out of the ham band).

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

SNIP2SAVE-------
It's about 600 bucks but a Cysco 2400 WiFi with PoE support
would do this, however , remoting into a router everytime you
want to scour the bands or make an AP change is a bit of a
nucense. Thats what turns people to USB Dish and Dongle
setups. You can switch AP access on the fly, with the router
you have to "Go To Work" sort of speek. It does however
benefiet your telnet skills. :-)
If I could find a lower end name "Repeater" capable AP point
unit like a NetGear or similar and program it to autologon to
unprotected WiFi access points That would Kick butt.
Thats called promiscuous mode but has moral issues.
And another turn off, Two transmitters equalls double the
Packet overhead witch converts to half the speed even if you
have a strong signal. The KISS methoud always wins for
performance in WiFi.

I'd like to learn more about why the USB is chosen.

Jerry KD6JDJ






--
Quote "Get SSL VPN services now, KEEP Government OUT of your
business... "

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

On 04 Mar 2008, you wrote in rec.radio.amateur.antenna:


Maybe I am missing something here, but if you put a
wireless router at the top of the tower why do you need
anything else other than power up the mast? You can can
talk to the router locally over the air without the need
for a cable connection.

Jeff



There are two issues that I am ignorant to;
1; is the WEB services that are built into these routers in
order to program them too often is DIS-Allowed through the
AIR.
Most make you connect to a "DMZ" drop [cat5] on the router to
bypass the NAT firewall and administer the stats that way.
I have never succeeded in getting to that page through Wi-Fi
methods. Some routers are easy to get to through the NAT drops
provided on the router there are generally 2 or 3 of them. You
can NULL cat5 into the things direct from a laptop, but AirNet
into them? I haven't seen that [yet].


--
Quote "Get SSL VPN services now, KEEP Government OUT of your
business... "

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

" W4NNG" wrote in
:

Like Mike, I also have the MFJ-1800. And boy was I
surprised when none of my shack full of type N to SMA
adapters didn't work. I can't believe they reversed the
polarity of the center pins for WIFI SMA connectors.
Urrrrgh

Whatch out MFJ, here comes my soldering gun :-)

--
Quote "Get SSL VPN services now, KEEP Government OUT of your
business... "

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

Just another one to break.

The rule gets about as much respect as laws against
jaywalking, littering, or cussing in South Pasadena during
the first week of March, but it's on the books
ne'ertheless.




--
Quote "Get SSL VPN services now, KEEP Government OUT of your
business... "

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

Like Mike, I also have the MFJ-1800. And boy was I
surprised when none of my shack full of type N to SMA
adapters didn't work. I can't believe they reversed the
polarity of the center pins for WIFI SMA connectors.
Urrrrgh

That's due to an FCC requirement. The FCC says (or used to say) that
the antennas on consumer-type Part 15 wireless gear had to be "not
commonly available" or words to that effect. Reverse-polarity
gendering, reversed threads, etc. are all common techniques... and of
course, as soon as one is used, it rapidly becomes so popular that it
ceases to be "not commonly available" :-)

The specific intent was to try to discourage consumers from changing
the antennas on WiFi gear. The certification of WiFi equipment is
done on the system as a whole (radio + antenna), and changing to a
higher-gain antenna automatically invalidates the certification and
makes the WiFi system technically illegal to operate (at least, until
it's re-tested and re-certificated with the new antenna).

If I recall correctly, the FCC modified the rules a year or two ago.
A system's manufacturer is now allowed to test their system with one
or more types of antennas, having different amounts of gain, and
publish the gain number for the highest-gain antenna with which the
system has been successfully certificated. It's then legal for an
installer to substitute a different antenna than the original... as
long as the substituted antenna has the same, or lower gain than the
highest-gain antenna that the manufacturer has certificated.

These rules are, I suspect, honored far more in the breach than in the
observance... and there seem to be very few manufacturers who go to
the trouble of publicizing the "highest-gain antenna allowed with this
system" information. That's probably going to be done only for
high-grade commercial gear, not consumer-grade routers or the like.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

On 06/02/2011 12:36 PM, moronsbegone wrote:

If I could find a lower end name "Repeater" capable AP point
unit like a NetGear or similar and program it to autologon to
unprotected WiFi access points That would Kick butt.
Thats called promiscuous mode but has moral issues.

Hello, and moral issues aside for the moment, you'll probably discover
very quickly that unlike a few years ago most, if not all, Wi-Fi access
points/cable routers in your area these days are probably protected
either by WEP (old) or WPA-2. (A Wi-Fi laptop with a network scan
utility will usually indicate protected/open networks). And even many
of those with older equipment have gotten wise.

The newer boxes usually have the protection turned on out-of-the-box
with a password (changeable by the user/administrator). Older boxes had
WEP turned off by default and a lot of users just plugged them in and
never bothered to read the user guide and/or turn on the protection.
Sincerely, and 73s from N4GGO,

--
J. B. Wood e-mail:

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

On 06/03/2011 06:43 AM, J.B. Wood wrote:
On 06/02/2011 12:36 PM, moronsbegone wrote:

If I could find a lower end name "Repeater" capable AP point
unit like a NetGear or similar and program it to autologon to
unprotected WiFi access points That would Kick butt.
Thats called promiscuous mode but has moral issues.

Hello, and moral issues aside for the moment, you'll probably discover
very quickly that unlike a few years ago most, if not all, Wi-Fi access
points/cable routers in your area these days are probably protected
either by WEP (old) or WPA-2. (A Wi-Fi laptop with a network scan
utility will usually indicate protected/open networks). And even many of
those with older equipment have gotten wise.

The newer boxes usually have the protection turned on out-of-the-box
with a password (changeable by the user/administrator). Older boxes had
WEP turned off by default and a lot of users just plugged them in and
never bothered to read the user guide and/or turn on the protection.
Sincerely, and 73s from N4GGO,


Hello, and I forgot to add that if your objective is to access public
Wi-Fi (which is usually unprotected) at a distance then have at it.
Sort of like stationary war driving. My previous comments pertained to
accessing private/home Wi-Fi nets. Sincerely,

--
J. B. Wood e-mail:

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

Hello once more. One last thing to add is that even if one installs a
high-gain Wi-Fi antenna, depending on the distance to the source, you
probably won't have clear line-of-sight and subject to multipath
problems. The network might show a "4 green bars" signal strength one
moment and be yellow, red, or out the next). Sincerely,

--
J. B. Wood e-mail:

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

"J.B. Wood" wrote in
:

On 06/02/2011 12:36 PM, moronsbegone wrote:

If I could find a lower end name "Repeater" capable AP
point unit like a NetGear or similar and program it to
autologon to unprotected WiFi access points That would
Kick butt. Thats called promiscuous mode but has moral
issues.

Hello, and moral issues aside for the moment, you'll
probably discover very quickly that unlike a few years ago
most, if not all, Wi-Fi access points/cable routers in your
area these days are probably protected either by WEP (old)
or WPA-2. (A Wi-Fi laptop with a network scan utility will
usually indicate protected/open networks). And even many
of those with older equipment have gotten wise.

The newer boxes usually have the protection turned on
out-of-the-box with a password (changeable by the
user/administrator). Older boxes had WEP turned off by
default and a lot of users just plugged them in and never
bothered to read the user guide and/or turn on the
protection. Sincerely, and 73s from N4GGO,


Give me 5 minutes and "Back-Track-3" and I can crack a wep key.
google backtrack 3 and version 4 and weep!!

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

"J.B. Wood" wrote in
:

Hello once more. One last thing to add is that even if one
installs a high-gain Wi-Fi antenna, depending on the
distance to the source, you probably won't have clear
line-of-sight and subject to multipath problems. The
network might show a "4 green bars" signal strength one
moment and be yellow, red, or out the next). Sincerely,


That is most likely where my problem is. Remember this is just
a redneck style Git'r done solution till my commercial one
arrives, a vertical anttenna in front of a dish has got all
ears and no mouth written all over it.
Now if I was using a feed horn [cantenna type] well that would
prove tx power and your sugestion as well is the culprit, we
know the clutter thing is in there because this whole shmoosh
is indoors. I hate running high power $$$ and frequent
burnouts of the finals. I like to think a half watt is all
I'll need. Now if I can get my TX to look like a Laser beam
hey hey.

Seriously check this out;
www.youtube.com/watch?v=piFISJKyV6c
www.youtube.com/watch?v=weEZtBTfEMU

The software is free but I preffer the USB dongle os
running BackTrack 3 It's a bit simpler, and you need 2 wifi
dongles, prefferably the Athros as suggested, II use them on
other versions of Linux too, they seem to be the best for
hackin around, they are permiscuos and can Inject packets to
an already busy data streem thanx to the MAC address
spoofabilty they have.
You can also use this software to turn a laptop with two
dongles into a covert repeater. But expect downtime with that
idea.
You can Cache everybodys WEP keys buy faking your IP as one of
the AP points in the Air. Send all 'packets copy' to a data
BIN folder and run the desypher software built in to get the
wep, wpk and such. Even SSL ports. It's my job to keep these
script kiddies out of my network, I have to know this stuff.
Our wireless Credit card system is constantly under attack
by NIX kids [wannabe hacker teens running linux] As long as I
can crack it, they will not use it, it's sitting there off
line collecting dust per order ME!! WEP is not safe neither
is WPK, though a data base dictionary service is needed for
WPK sometimes for 25 bucks these hackers will take your glop
of ssl data and within 1 day send you the security key.
This is the nightmare behind CLOUD computing, the access to
several hundred micro proccessors to crack a key is now CHEAP,
I use 40 lab machines to convert and crunch a DVD 2 hour video
in ten minutes with cloud computing software. It's realy FARM
computing not quite the same as the term local ads are running
such as google is now cloud computing.
Unfortunatly Criminal minds are more intrested in this more
then we are.

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

"amdx" wrote in
:


" W4NNG" wrote in message
...
Hello fellow HRO's

I've got a 50ft tower w/ rotor. Been thinking mounting
a 2.4 Ghz WiFi antenna on the rotor to see what it picks
up in way of WAP / WLAN's

To get around cable loss problem was going to put a USB
adapter at antenna then run USB cable up tower. Have
tested USB at ~ 5X it's spec'd range but
suspect the 60 - 70' run will be way too long.

Anyone know of a way to 'remodulate' so to speak to 802.11
wirelessly link the output from the antenna mounted
adapter back to computer?

Thanks for any thoughts
A programmable router would be better, especially one that
has a Linux os and is Hackable. Here is an interesting video
that makes a run of the mill Lynksys 80 dollar router do what
a [600 dollar] Cisco AirNet 2400 can, Repeater and all, they
hack the OS and install their free to public home brew
features.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08eVqpPVGiU

So much for spending 600 bucks if it works, you'll be under a
hundred. Only 235 milliwatts max though.
Personally I am lazy and employed; I would just go out and buy
a Cisco 1/2 watt or other top end product and be done with it.
Can't use a whole watt if you woryy about FCC dudes lurking
around, that and a 30 db gain your way over limit.
Too bad these little routers do not support PoE [Power over
eithernet, you can use a power injector [40 bucks] to send the
power to the router through two of the 6 conductors of the
CAT5 cable.

For now just run a cat 5 cable and low voltage power supply
bell wire to the router witch HAS WiFi 2 channel built in.
Check and make sure there are External Antenna outputs on this
otherwise walk away from it. Soldering 2.4 GHz equipment
___s#$ks. If I didn't own a 1300 dollar wire bonder unit I
wouldn't try it, but fortunately I do and the job still stinks
, If your not a neat freak with connections you have sporadic
rf leaking everywhere.

Bob

W4NNG


Hi Bob,
I have done something similar to what you want to do. I
picked up MFJs yagi
antenna MFJ-1800
http://www.mfjenterprises.com/man/pdf/MFJ-1800.pdf
and a $13.00 wireless USB adapter. I adapted an N connector
to the wireless USB adapter.
(a little troublesome, large connector, small adapter) I
then connected the N connector/adapter assy
to the yagi. I mounted the whole thing in a 4" pvc pipe. I
purchased two 15 ft USB male to female cords.
I found I had intermitent performance, The problem was 30
ft of USB cords,
I cut back to one 15ft cord
and the ass'y works wonderfully. I can see over 20 wifi
signals from where I'm at, only 3 to 4 are strong
signals (over 50%, whatever that means). While trying to
solve the intermitent performance I did find
there are cords available with amplifiers built inline to
extend the usable USB cable length. I did not try
these I just moved my yagi. The others are way ahead of my
knowledge regarding the wireless router and
it's operation on top of your tower.
Mike

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

" W4NNG" wrote in
:

Hello everyone

Like Mike, I also have the MFJ-1800. And boy was I
surprised when none of my shack full of type N to SMA
adapters didn't work. I can't believe they reversed the
polarity of the center pins for WIFI SMA connectors.
Urrrrgh !!!

The router discussion is interesting I need to keep it
simple. Of my various goals one of them is to passively
receive signals. At least at my level of knowledge it
will be best if the computer links directly to the adapter.

Haven't had the chance to look around but I do like the
Ethernet cable up the tower suggestion. Is there a
particularly good adapter for doing this?




"amdx" wrote in message
...

" W4NNG" wrote in message
...
Hello fellow HRO's

I've got a 50ft tower w/ rotor. Been thinking mounting
a 2.4 Ghz WiFi antenna on the rotor to see what it picks
up in way of WAP / WLAN's

To get around cable loss problem was going to put a USB
adapter at antenna then run USB cable up tower. Have
tested USB at ~ 5X it's spec'd range but
suspect the 60 - 70' run will be way too long.

Anyone know of a way to 'remodulate' so to speak to 802.11
wirelessly link the output from the antenna mounted
adapter back to computer?

Thanks for any thoughts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08eVqpPVGiU

Video instructions on a cheap linksys hack.
This would be work but CHEAP CHEAP.


Bob

W4NNG


Hi Bob,
I have done something similar to what you want to do. I
picked up MFJs yagi
antenna MFJ-1800
http://www.mfjenterprises.com/man/pdf/MFJ-1800.pdf
and a $13.00 wireless USB adapter. I adapted an N connector
to the wireless USB adapter.
(a little troublesome, large connector, small adapter) I
then connected the N connector/adapter assy
to the yagi. I mounted the whole thing in a 4" pvc pipe. I
purchased two 15 ft USB male to female cords.
I found I had intermitent performance, The problem was 30
ft of USB cords,
I cut back to one 15ft cord
and the ass'y works wonderfully. I can see over 20 wifi
signals from where I'm at, only 3 to 4 are strong
signals (over 50%, whatever that means). While trying to
solve the intermitent performance I did find
there are cords available with amplifiers built inline to
extend the usable USB cable length. I did not try
these I just moved my yagi. The others are way ahead of my
knowledge regarding the wireless router and
it's operation on top of your tower.
Mike

WiFi Link from top of tower
 

" W4NNG" wrote in news:UFhAj.20559$yk5.18269
@newsfe18.lga:

MFJ-1800
http://www.gigaparts.com/parts/gpcpa...nal/nw0054.jpg

Judging by the pic, the Feed looks hackable, I would change that
in a heartbeat, by by booger feed hello n female feed.