through glass coax coupling
 

I'm sure a FAQ, but a search on line did not resolve my question.

I need to feed my coax (QRP, 10 meters) out through a pane of glass, and
for that I need a through-glass coax coupler (this is not an automotive,
but a home window situation).

Most couplers are apparently capacitative. At 10 meters, for example,
would I gain much by going to a microstrip coupler instead (whatever
that is)?

How good a coupling can I expect with a through-glass coupler? It sounds
very lossy, but perhaps not.

What brands of couplers would you recommend, or what is a good source
for such couplers?

--

Haines Brown, KB1GRM

through glass coax coupling
 

Haines Brown wrote:
I need to feed my coax (QRP, 10 meters) out through a pane of glass, and
for that I need a through-glass coax coupler (this is not an automotive,
but a home window situation).

You are probably not going to like the size of the
capacitive plates necessary for 10m operation. I
have a small strip of plexiglas installed in/under
my window where my wires enter and exit.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

through glass coax coupling
 

"Haines Brown" wrote in message
...
I'm sure a FAQ, but a search on line did not resolve my question.

I need to feed my coax (QRP, 10 meters) out through a pane of glass, and
for that I need a through-glass coax coupler (this is not an automotive,
but a home window situation).

Most couplers are apparently capacitative. At 10 meters, for example,
would I gain much by going to a microstrip coupler instead (whatever
that is)?

How good a coupling can I expect with a through-glass coupler? It sounds
very lossy, but perhaps not.

What brands of couplers would you recommend, or what is a good source
for such couplers?

--

Haines Brown, KB1GRM


Haines,

Automotive couplers for two metres manage with a 2 inch by 2 inch plate
either side of the glass. It could be worth trying 6 inch by 6 inch plates
on the domestic window and see what signal level gets out. Reception
shouldn't be a problem if you can get 50% or more of your transmission power
out through the glass.

You need to get as much capacitance as possible, which means big plates as
closely spaced together as possible.

The plates can be formed from aluminum foil taped closely to the window for
experimental purposes. Adhesive coated copper sheet or foil can be used once
you have found a size and shape that works best for you.

Provided the window is single glazed, you have a chance of getting this to
work. If the window is double glazed or has any type of thermal barrier
coating, get out the power drill and fix a cable through the wall.

The only advantage that a commercial coupler might have is that the visual
asthetics might be a bit better than a home brewed effort.

If the window can be opened, use a bit of thin figure of eight twin cable to
bridge across the opening and just shut the window on it. Connect up the
coax inside and outside and you're up and running. The bridging cable can be
easily replaced if it gets broken by the window opening and shutting. A few
inches of twin cable won't mess the overall impedence of the antenna system
up too much.

Mike G0ULI

through glass coax coupling
 

"Mike Kaliski" wrote in message
...

"Haines Brown" wrote in message
...
I'm sure a FAQ, but a search on line did not resolve my question.

I need to feed my coax (QRP, 10 meters) out through a pane of glass, and
for that I need a through-glass coax coupler (this is not an automotive,
but a home window situation).

Most couplers are apparently capacitative. At 10 meters, for example,
would I gain much by going to a microstrip coupler instead (whatever
that is)?

How good a coupling can I expect with a through-glass coupler? It sounds
very lossy, but perhaps not.

What brands of couplers would you recommend, or what is a good source
for such couplers?

The effective 2M antennas (Antenna Specialists) accomplish the lossless fed
through because the radiator is voltage fed half wave and the interior
coupling unit has a hi--low Z transformer.
You could do the same at 10M by converting the 50 Ohm feed to a higher
impedance and then down converting outside. The downside is that this will
likely limit your bandwidth a bit.

Dale W4OP

through glass coax coupling
 

"Mike Kaliski" writes:

"Haines Brown" wrote in message
...
Automotive couplers for two metres manage with a 2 inch by 2 inch
plate either side of the glass. It could be worth trying 6 inch by 6
inch plates on the domestic window and see what signal level gets
out. Reception shouldn't be a problem if you can get 50% or more of
your transmission power out through the glass.

The suggestions for a panel to insert into a partially opened window and
to close the window on twin lead seem out. It's a steel casement type
window that must be fully shut, and even if twin-lead were to get around
the edge, it would be sandwiched in steel. I don't own the wall, so even
if a hole could be put in it (which it can't), I don't own it.

On the positive side, this is a single pain of ordinary class, and I
could make a capacitative coupler over 12" square and still get too near
the steel frame. It's a curtained window, and so appearance is not
important.

A question. Is this coupling purely capacitative at this frequency (the
more surface area the better), or is it somewhat tuned (try different
sizes to see what signal level gets out).

An obvious question, how can the coax be connected to the sheets of
metal? That is, what happens to the braid? Or could there be two sheets
next to each other on both sides of the glass, say one foot square each,
with one for the coax center conductor and one for its braid?

The only advantage that a commercial coupler might have is that the
visual asthetics might be a bit better than a home brewed effort.

I was hoping to see a commercial coupler to figure out how they are
constructed, but so far have seen only one for XP radio, and it is not
clear what's up with it.

--

Haines Brown, KB1GRM

through glass coax coupling
 

"Dale Parfitt" writes:

The effective 2M antennas (Antenna Specialists) accomplish the
lossless fed through because the radiator is voltage fed half wave and
the interior coupling unit has a hi--low Z transformer. You could do
the same at 10M by converting the 50 Ohm feed to a higher impedance
and then down converting outside. The downside is that this will
likely limit your bandwidth a bit.

Dale, this is interesting, although my initial challenge is just to get
capacitative coupling through glass without much attention to the
impedance on either side. I hope/assume that at 10 meters, paralel metal
sheets under a foot in size will represent just an impedance affecting
signal strengh a bit, not something in need of tuning.

When you speak of "radiator", I assume you mean the antenna itself
rather than the metal sheet that is inside and radiates through the
glass. I'm running a magnetic loop antenna, with an antenna tuner inside
the building at the transmitter end of the coax.

--

Haines Brown, KB1GRM

through glass coax coupling
 

On 2 abr, 18:46, Haines Brown wrote:
I'm sure a FAQ, but a search on line did not resolve my question.

I need to feed my coax (QRP, 10 meters) out through a pane of glass, and
for that I need a through-glass coax coupler (this is not an automotive,
but a home window situation).

Most couplers are apparently capacitative. At 10 meters, for example,
would I gain much by going to a microstrip coupler instead (whatever
that is)?

How good a coupling can I expect with a through-glass coupler? It sounds
very lossy, but perhaps not.

What brands of couplers would you recommend, or what is a good source
for such couplers?

--

Haines Brown, KB1GRM

Hello,

Why not using inductive coupling? You can get reasonable coupling as
wires are just mm away from eachother, so you don't need high Q factor
circuit.
Matching indoor only is possible (so you don't need matching outside
to interface to 50 Ohm coaxial cable).

Best regards,

Wim
PA3DJS
www.tetech.nl
please remove abc from the mail address.

through glass coax coupling
 

Wimpie writes:

Why not using inductive coupling? You can get reasonable coupling as
wires are just mm away from eachother, so you don't need high Q factor
circuit.

Didn't occur to me. Are you suggesting a couple coils sharing an axis,
one just inside the window and the other outside? Would the two coils
simply be designed for a 50-ohm impedance at, say, 10 meters?

I can imagine wrapping a 50-ohm coil on pvc, and inserting it into a
larger diameter pvc that is capped and which has a coax connector passing
through it. and the whole attached to the glass with silicone
adhesive. One on either side of the glass.

Matching indoor only is possible (so you don't need matching outside
to interface to 50 Ohm coaxial cable).

Not sure of your point. It seems I need to match outside.

Another problem just occurred to me. I'll use a MFJ magnetic loop, and
its tuner, if I recall, depends on an uninterrupted electical connection
through the coax. If so, I'm stuck.
--

Haines Brown, KB1GRM

through glass coax coupling
 

On 3 abr, 23:42, Haines Brown wrote:
Wimpie writes:
Why not using inductive coupling? You can get reasonable coupling as
wires are just mm away from eachother, so you don't need high Q factor
circuit.

Didn't occur to me. Are you suggesting a couple coils sharing an axis,
one just inside the window and the other outside? Would the two coils
simply be designed for a 50-ohm impedance at, say, 10 meters?

I can imagine wrapping a 50-ohm coil on pvc, and inserting it into a
larger diameter pvc that is capped and which has a coax connector passing
through it. and the whole attached to the glass with silicone
adhesive. One on either side of the glass.

Matching indoor only is possible (so you don't need matching outside
to interface to 50 Ohm coaxial cable).

Not sure of your point. It seems I need to match outside.

Another problem just occurred to me. I'll use a MFJ magnetic loop, and
its tuner, if I recall, depends on an uninterrupted electical connection
through the coax. If so, I'm stuck.
--

Haines Brown, KB1GRM

Hello,

I was thinking of just 1 turn windings glued on the window of about
D=10'' (correctly aligned), in combination with a two trimmer
capacitor match (from which one can probably be a fixed value after
experimenting).

When you would do matching both inside and outside you can get a
broader response. Window glass is just about 0.15'' thick, so I think
a single match (inside) would have sufficient bandwidth (especially
when you would use foil/strip material for the two single turn
windings).

Best regards,

Wim
PA3DJS
www.tetech.nl
please remove abc from the address.

through glass coax coupling
 

"Haines Brown" wrote in message
...
"Mike Kaliski" writes:

"Haines Brown" wrote in message
...
Automotive couplers for two metres manage with a 2 inch by 2 inch
plate either side of the glass. It could be worth trying 6 inch by 6
inch plates on the domestic window and see what signal level gets
out. Reception shouldn't be a problem if you can get 50% or more of
your transmission power out through the glass.

The suggestions for a panel to insert into a partially opened window and
to close the window on twin lead seem out. It's a steel casement type
window that must be fully shut, and even if twin-lead were to get around
the edge, it would be sandwiched in steel. I don't own the wall, so even
if a hole could be put in it (which it can't), I don't own it.

On the positive side, this is a single pain of ordinary class, and I
could make a capacitative coupler over 12" square and still get too near
the steel frame. It's a curtained window, and so appearance is not
important.

A question. Is this coupling purely capacitative at this frequency (the
more surface area the better), or is it somewhat tuned (try different
sizes to see what signal level gets out).

An obvious question, how can the coax be connected to the sheets of
metal? That is, what happens to the braid? Or could there be two sheets
next to each other on both sides of the glass, say one foot square each,
with one for the coax center conductor and one for its braid?

The only advantage that a commercial coupler might have is that the
visual asthetics might be a bit better than a home brewed effort.

I was hoping to see a commercial coupler to figure out how they are
constructed, but so far have seen only one for XP radio, and it is not
clear what's up with it.

--

Haines Brown, KB1GRM

Haines,

The versions I used years ago relied purely on capacitive coupling. The
braid was broken and only the centre lead of the coax was connected to the
plates. The earth return was via the automobile chassis for vehicle use, or
via earth connections for domestic use. The metal frame of the window might
work if you have any means of getting a good connection, otherwise you will
need some form of reliable (low impedence) earth connection inside and
outside the building for the system to work properly.

The coupling through the glass should be purely capacitive although some
inductance effects will inevitably be introduced due to the size of the
plates.

As an alternative you might consider making up two matched tuned circuits
(coil and capacitor) set for the 10 metre band and try inductively coupling
the coils through the glass. To my mind that would be smaller and easier to
set up without the need to worry about earth feeds. A kind of through glass
balun if you like. Obviously you will need to keep a reasonable distance
away from the metal window frame, but a couple of turns of wire and a
couple of capacitors may be all you need.

Mike G0ULI

through glass coax coupling
 

"Haines Brown" wrote in message
...
Wimpie writes:

Why not using inductive coupling? You can get reasonable coupling as
wires are just mm away from eachother, so you don't need high Q factor
circuit.

Didn't occur to me. Are you suggesting a couple coils sharing an axis,
one just inside the window and the other outside? Would the two coils
simply be designed for a 50-ohm impedance at, say, 10 meters?

I can imagine wrapping a 50-ohm coil on pvc, and inserting it into a
larger diameter pvc that is capped and which has a coax connector passing
through it. and the whole attached to the glass with silicone
adhesive. One on either side of the glass.

Matching indoor only is possible (so you don't need matching outside
to interface to 50 Ohm coaxial cable).

Not sure of your point. It seems I need to match outside.

Another problem just occurred to me. I'll use a MFJ magnetic loop, and
its tuner, if I recall, depends on an uninterrupted electical connection
through the coax. If so, I'm stuck.
--

Haines Brown, KB1GRM

Haines,

Just read the other postings about inductive coupling and I think that would
be the best way to go with a standard wire antenna like a half wave dipole,
vertical, etc.

I can't see any way of getting a magnetic loop antenna to work because you
need a direct DC path for power and tuning commands from the tuning unit to
the loop.

Might be better to put your ingenuity to better use by finding somewhere
hidden to run a thin bit of coax through the wall. Behind a switch plate,
power socket, joint fillet, alongside a pipe. There must be somewhere to put
a 1/4 inch hole that can be concealed later? For QRP work, you might get
away with a short through wall length of really thin coax, the 1/8 inch
stuff used to connect signal assemblies inside equipment.

If you are really brave, a masonry drill at high speed will cut through
glass with a bit of soapy water acting as a lubricant. Take your time and
try and brace the other side with a wooden block or elses a big bullseye
chip will be thrown out when the drill breaks through. Fill the hole with
transparent quick set epoxy when it is no longer needed.

Mike G0ULI

through glass coax coupling
 

Mike Kaliski wrote:

Haines,

The versions I used years ago relied purely on capacitive coupling. The
braid was broken and only the centre lead of the coax was connected to
the plates. The earth return was via the automobile chassis for vehicle
use, or via earth connections for domestic use. The metal frame of the
window might work if you have any means of getting a good connection,
otherwise you will need some form of reliable (low impedence) earth
connection inside and outside the building for the system to work properly.

The coupling through the glass should be purely capacitive although some
inductance effects will inevitably be introduced due to the size of the
plates.

You'll have a considerable amount of inductance for another reason if
you follow this approach.

Consider what happens when you separate the two conductors of the coax
as Mike suggests. One conductor continues more-or-less directly through
the glass. The other conductor becomes the "ground" path from wherever
the current leaves the inside of the coax shield on one side of the
glass to where it again enters on the other side. These are the two
conductors of a transmission line which you've inserted in series with
your normal line. If you'll do a little rough calculating, you'll find
that this line has a much higher impedance than 50 ohms. So, if
electrically short, its effect will be that of a series inductance. If
it's not so short, the impedance transformation will be a lot more
interesting. Another thing that happens is that the length of the
"ground" conductor is greater than the length of the center conductor.
This will probably give rise to common mode currents, which will involve
the outside of the coax in the active feedline.

As an alternative you might consider making up two matched tuned
circuits (coil and capacitor) set for the 10 metre band and try
inductively coupling the coils through the glass. To my mind that would
be smaller and easier to set up without the need to worry about earth
feeds. A kind of through glass balun if you like. Obviously you will
need to keep a reasonable distance away from the metal window frame, but
a couple of turns of wire and a couple of capacitors may be all you need.

That might have a better chance of producing a smaller disturbance to
the whole feed system. If you use direct capacitive coupling through the
glass, however, you should remember that you have two conductors to deal
with -- calling one "ground" doesn't give it magic properties. I'd use
two coupling plates, one for each conductor, as close together as
possible. A bit of intentional shunt capacitance would help compensate
for the inevitable series inductance which would be created by even that
setup.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

through glass coax coupling
 

I was hoping to see a commercial coupler to figure out how they are
constructed, but so far have seen only one for XP radio, and it is not
clear what's up with it.

If by commercial couplers you mean the units for through glass antennas,
then the ones that I have taken apart consisted of a parallel tuned circuit
with the coax inner tapped a little way up the coil and the braid connected
to the cold end of the coil. The 'hot' end of the tuned circuit was
connected to the coupling plate. The antenna just had a coupling plate. Of
course it worked by virtue of the approx 1/2 wave whip having a high
impedance at the base, so the required value of coupling capacitance was not
extremely high.

73
Jeff

through glass coax coupling
 

"Roy Lewallen" wrote in message
news:TJ-dnV1WvLdVMWjanZ2dnUVZ_r6rnZ2d@easystreetonline...
Mike Kaliski wrote:

Haines,

The versions I used years ago relied purely on capacitive coupling. The
braid was broken and only the centre lead of the coax was connected to
the plates. The earth return was via the automobile chassis for vehicle
use, or via earth connections for domestic use. The metal frame of the
window might work if you have any means of getting a good connection,
otherwise you will need some form of reliable (low impedence) earth
connection inside and outside the building for the system to work
properly.

The coupling through the glass should be purely capacitive although some
inductance effects will inevitably be introduced due to the size of the
plates.

You'll have a considerable amount of inductance for another reason if you
follow this approach.

Consider what happens when you separate the two conductors of the coax as
Mike suggests. One conductor continues more-or-less directly through the
glass. The other conductor becomes the "ground" path from wherever the
current leaves the inside of the coax shield on one side of the glass to
where it again enters on the other side. These are the two conductors of a
transmission line which you've inserted in series with your normal line.
If you'll do a little rough calculating, you'll find that this line has a
much higher impedance than 50 ohms. So, if electrically short, its effect
will be that of a series inductance. If it's not so short, the impedance
transformation will be a lot more interesting. Another thing that happens
is that the length of the "ground" conductor is greater than the length of
the center conductor. This will probably give rise to common mode
currents, which will involve the outside of the coax in the active
feedline.

As an alternative you might consider making up two matched tuned circuits
(coil and capacitor) set for the 10 metre band and try inductively
coupling the coils through the glass. To my mind that would be smaller
and easier to set up without the need to worry about earth feeds. A kind
of through glass balun if you like. Obviously you will need to keep a
reasonable distance away from the metal window frame, but a couple of
turns of wire and a couple of capacitors may be all you need.

That might have a better chance of producing a smaller disturbance to the
whole feed system. If you use direct capacitive coupling through the
glass, however, you should remember that you have two conductors to deal
with -- calling one "ground" doesn't give it magic properties. I'd use two
coupling plates, one for each conductor, as close together as possible. A
bit of intentional shunt capacitance would help compensate for the
inevitable series inductance which would be created by even that setup.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Roy

Very helpful and useful additional comments as usual. Thank you.

Mike G0ULI

through glass coax coupling
 

"Mike Kaliski" writes:

I can't see any way of getting a magnetic loop antenna to work because
you need a direct DC path for power and tuning commands from the
tuning unit to the loop.

I must apologize for starting a thread that I realized would be for me a
dead end. I've not used a magnetic loop before and so easily forgot
about the need for a direct DC connection. However, the thread was
interesting and hopefully worthwhile.

Might be better to put your ingenuity to better use

Yes. Options are limited because I'm at the eighth story of a steel
high-rise, and the enamled metal outside surface material doesn't lend
itself to drilling. In any case, I don't own it and wouldn't feel right
about destroying property not mine. The window is a casement window, and
I'm now thinking of leaving it permanently ajar and gluing (silicone) on
the inside frame a piece of plexiglass with a coax feedthrough. That way
I can have light from the window, protection from the elements and not
destroy anything. Ultimately it can be removed when necessary.

--

Haines Brown, KB1GRM

through glass coax coupling
 

The window is a casement window, and
I'm now thinking of leaving it permanently ajar and gluing (silicone) on
the inside frame a piece of plexiglass with a coax feedthrough. That way
I can have light from the window, protection from the elements and not
destroy anything. Ultimately it can be removed when necessary.


If you are going to do it this way, I might suggest you use weather
stripping ( for doors, etc. ) instead of Silicone sealer. It comes in a
variety of thicknesses.... should provide a good seal for your slightly
ajar window, easily allow some RG-8X type coax through, and be a lot
easier to remove than the silicone in the future. Also, will still allow
you to open your window if need be ... just a thought.

Ed K7AAT

through glass coax coupling
 

Haines Brown wrote:
... Options are limited because I'm at the eighth story of a steel
high-rise, and the enamled metal outside surface material doesn't lend
itself to drilling. In any case, I don't own it and wouldn't feel
right about destroying property not mine...

Have the window replaced and leave a space at the bottom
of the pane for a plexiglas feed through panel.

When you move, have the window replaced again.

Couple hundred bucks, it's done right, nothing
is destroyed.


Craig 'Lumpy' Lemke

www.n0eq.com