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Gene Fuller wrote:
Bruce in alaska wrote: Gene, It would depend on who you purchased your AMP from, and if it was NEW at the time of purchase. If it was not "NEW" at the time of your purchase, and you purchased it from another HAM, or another Ham owned it at some previous time, then it is waived under 47CFRPart97.315(b)4,& 5, and if you Modify your "NEW" Purchase, by drilling a hole somewhere in the AMP, to add it to YOUR Station (Modification) they it is waived under 47CFR97.315(b)3(ii), as long as you don't "Modify" more than one AMP per year, for your personal use. (47CFRPart97.315(a). Bruce, Yes, I understand that. My initial comment was directed at the growing theme in the messages, not specifically expressed by you, that amateurs could legally use *any* transmitter as long as output power rules were not violated. It ain't necessarily so. A small nit.. "any transmitter" is allowed.. the rules in 97.315 apply ONLY to external RF power amplifiers, and the class of "forbidden amplifiers" is actually quite small (a subset of those intended for use at an amateur station) And this is in keeping with the concept in the regulation of Amateur radio: allowing basically everything and exclude a small fraction; which is different than the whole rest of radio, where it's: exclude most things, and allow only specific things. |
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Gene Fuller wrote:
... A constructed or modified amp is potentially legal if operated within the output power rules. Did you read something else? 73, Gene W4SZ Hmmm, a mod ... I wonder; would re-painting the case hot-pink qualify? Custom knobs? Installing a larger muffin fan? ... LOL Regards, JS |
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Dave wrote:
want something to warm up your car... check out these little gems. http://www.davemade.com/mobile.htm This guy's name, address, and telephone number are listed in the web registration database. All this fuss about what's legal and what isn't is purely academic considering the total lack of enforcement. The FCC is much too busy trying to bust the broadcasters for a few milliseconds of boob to bother with this sort of thing. Roy Lewallen, W7EL |
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Roy Lewallen wrote:
Dave wrote: want something to warm up your car... check out these little gems. http://www.davemade.com/mobile.htm This guy's name, address, and telephone number are listed in the web registration database. All this fuss about what's legal and what isn't is purely academic considering the total lack of enforcement. The FCC is much too busy trying to bust the broadcasters for a few milliseconds of boob to bother with this sort of thing. Roy Lewallen, W7EL http://www.fcc.gov/eb/FieldNotices/2...-270807A1.html In the Matter of ) ) File No.: EB-06-PO-169 Michael T. Kersnowski ) d/b/a RadioActive Radio ) Citation No.: C20073292003 ) Salem, Oregon 97302 ) ) |
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"Jim Lux" wrote in message ... Cecil Moore wrote: Gene Fuller wrote: Unless "John Smith" has a "certificated for use in the amateur service" 5 kW amp (highly unlikely that one could find such a critter) or "constructed or modified" the 5 kW amp then it is not legal for amateur use at any power setting. "Modifications" are trivially easy. Like.. The front panel has been modified to add a placard indicating that operation at more than XXX plate current is not permitted when operating in amateur bands. And that whole "offered for sale" kind of thing is a huge regulatory morass, with a lot of "guidance" from local FCC officials on what might or might not prompt more attention. It's one thing to have an obscure ham oriented website and sell widgets obviously intended only for hams.. another to have a big online-store and sell obviously commercial products with a "wink, wink" disclaimer about only selling to hams, when in actuality, anyone with a credit card can get it. The FCC enforcement logs are full of things like folks are selling "experimenter" video transmitters, but doing no substantive validation of the buyer. Ditto the stores selling various and sundry CB equipment. ---------------- Anyone can own any piece of radio gear legally. Restrictions are on sales and usage. So, while it is not unlawful to own a 10kw AM transmitter, even by a CB operator, or someone that doesn't operate radio at all, it IS illegal/unlawful for a business to sell new equipment to those without legal qualifications. What about salvaged/junk transmitters? I don't know. Much has changed over the years, but "presumed innocent until proven guilty" still carries a little weight here and there. Ed Cregger |
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"Gene Fuller" wrote in message ... Ed Cregger wrote: "Gene Fuller" wrote in message ... Bruce in alaska wrote: In article , Cecil Moore wrote: John Smith quoted someone: "A 5 KW amplifier is not lawful for use under Part 97." Back in the 60's, a ham friend of mine ran a surplus AM transmitter capable of 10KW output. However, he never adjusted his input power to more than the legal 1KW limit. Whom, ever "Someone" is, he isn't versed in 47CFR97, and doesn't understand, or can't comprehend, the actual Rule that Part 97 operations are REQUIRED to operate under. Specifically Part 97.313. I wonder if "Said Person" has ever actually READ 47CFR90.313? Apparently NOT...... Why stop at 97.313? Try 97.315 and 97.317 as well. Unless "John Smith" has a "certificated for use in the amateur service" 5 kW amp (highly unlikely that one could find such a critter) or "constructed or modified" the 5 kW amp then it is not legal for amateur use at any power setting. 73, Gene W4SZ No, friend Gene. It doesn't work that way. You do not have to have type certification for legal operation in the amateur bands. You only have to have it if you SELL new amateur equipment in the USA. Home made gear, or converted gear from other services, is completely legal in the USA. Always has been, hopefully always will be. CB gear must be type certified for selling and for usage. Again, amateurs are responsible for their RF emissions. The FCC could care less about the type of gear you are using. In fact, if brand new amateur gear that was compliant to type acceptance malfunctions and issues an out of spec emission, YOU as a duly licensed amateur radio operator are held responsible. Not the manufacturer. Ed, NM2K Ed, Sorry you have such a problem with basic literacy. I stand by exactly what I said. An unmodified manufactured amp that is not "certificated" is not legal for use in the US Amateur Service, regardless of where it was manufactured. A constructed or modified amp is potentially legal if operated within the output power rules. Did you read something else? 73, Gene W4SZ --------------- And my point is that ANY amplifier is legal, as long as it is operated within the limits specified by the FCC for the particular amateur band and license class of the operator. No type acceptance is necessary at all. Am I missing something Gene? Bear with me, please. I'm on a lot of medication these days and I make mistakes occasionally. Thank you. Ed Cregger |
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Ed Cregger wrote:
... Bear with me, please. I'm on a lot of medication these days and I make mistakes occasionally. Thank you. Ed Cregger Ed: At least you have an excuse ... How do you think us guys who aren't taking anything feel when we don't have anything to blame it on? :-( (well, there is always alzheimers' ... :-) ) Regards, JS |
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Jim Lux wrote:
Gene Fuller wrote: My initial comment was directed at the growing theme in the messages, not specifically expressed by you, that amateurs could legally use *any* transmitter as long as output power rules were not violated. It ain't necessarily so. A small nit.. "any transmitter" is allowed.. the rules in 97.315 apply ONLY to external RF power amplifiers, and the class of "forbidden amplifiers" is actually quite small (a subset of those intended for use at an amateur station) Guilty as charged! I was careless to say "transmitter". |
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Ed Cregger wrote:
And my point is that ANY amplifier is legal, as long as it is operated within the limits specified by the FCC for the particular amateur band and license class of the operator. No type acceptance is necessary at all. Am I missing something Gene? Ed, I don't think that is correct. I don't believe it is legal to use an unmodified DaveMade or other such beast in amateur service, at any power level. I think that is the point of 97.315. It is about more than just "operation" within the rules. I realize there are a million ways to get around any potential limitations resulting from these loosely worded and rarely enforced regulations. However, if for some reason the FCC wanted to go after someone I doubt that amateur "modifications" such as adding a placard or drilling a hole would carry much weight. 73, Gene W4SZ |
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"Gene Fuller" wrote in message ... Bruce in alaska wrote: Gene, It would depend on who you purchased your AMP from, and if it was NEW at the time of purchase. If it was not "NEW" at the time of your purchase, and you purchased it from another HAM, or another Ham owned it at some previous time, then it is waived under 47CFRPart97.315(b)4,& 5, and if you Modify your "NEW" Purchase, by drilling a hole somewhere in the AMP, to add it to YOUR Station (Modification) they it is waived under 47CFR97.315(b)3(ii), as long as you don't "Modify" more than one AMP per year, for your personal use. (47CFRPart97.315(a). Bruce, Yes, I understand that. My initial comment was directed at the growing theme in the messages, not specifically expressed by you, that amateurs could legally use *any* transmitter as long as output power rules were not violated. It ain't necessarily so. 73, Gene W4SZ ------------ Now I see the point that you were making. Thanks for your patience. Ed, NM2K |
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Gene Fuller wrote:
Ed Cregger wrote: And my point is that ANY amplifier is legal, as long as it is operated within the limits specified by the FCC for the particular amateur band and license class of the operator. No type acceptance is necessary at all. Am I missing something Gene? Ed, I don't think that is correct. I don't believe it is legal to use an unmodified DaveMade or other such beast in amateur service, at any power level. I think that is the point of 97.315. We should all read 97.315 *in it's entirety*, and consider 97.315(b)(3), (b) The requirement of paragraph (a) does not apply if one or more of the following conditions are met: (1) ... (2) ... (3) The amplifier is sold to an amateur radio operator or to a dealer, the amplifier is purchased in used condition by a dealer, or *the amplifier is sold to an amateur radio operator for use at that operator's station*. This (the emphasized) says to me that as an amateur licensee I can use any amplifier as long as I observe amateur emission regulations. Respectfully, Galen, W8LNA All of 97.315: [Revised as of October 1, 2007] From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access [CITE: 47CFR97.315] Sec. 97.315 Certification of external RF power amplifiers. (a) Any external RF power amplifier (see Sec. 2.815 of the FCC Rules) manufactured or imported for use at an amateur radio station must be certificated for use in the amateur service in accordance with subpart J of part 2 of the FCC Rules. No amplifier capable of operation below 144 MHz may be constructed or modified by a non-amateur service licensee without a grant of certification from the FCC. (b) The requirement of paragraph (a) does not apply if one or more of the following conditions are met: (1) The amplifier is constructed or modified by an amateur radio operator for use at an amateur station. (2) The amplifier was manufactured before April 28, 1978, and has been issued a marketing waiver by the FCC, or the amplifier was purchased before April 28, 1978, by an amateur radio operator for use at that operator's station. (3) The amplifier is sold to an amateur radio operator or to a dealer, the amplifier is purchased in used condition by a dealer, or the amplifier is sold to an amateur radio operator for use at that operator's station. (c) Any external RF power amplifier appearing in the Commission's database as certificated for use in the amateur service may be marketed for use in the amateur service. |
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gwatts wrote:
Gene Fuller wrote: Ed Cregger wrote: And my point is that ANY amplifier is legal, as long as it is operated within the limits specified by the FCC for the particular amateur band and license class of the operator. No type acceptance is necessary at all. Am I missing something Gene? Ed, I don't think that is correct. I don't believe it is legal to use an unmodified DaveMade or other such beast in amateur service, at any power level. I think that is the point of 97.315. We should all read 97.315 *in it's entirety*, and consider 97.315(b)(3), (b) The requirement of paragraph (a) does not apply if one or more of the following conditions are met: (1) ... (2) ... (3) The amplifier is sold to an amateur radio operator or to a dealer, the amplifier is purchased in used condition by a dealer, or *the amplifier is sold to an amateur radio operator for use at that operator's station*. This (the emphasized) says to me that as an amateur licensee I can use any amplifier as long as I observe amateur emission regulations. Respectfully, Galen, W8LNA Common sense would dictate (but then, as you already know, that is rare to find), if the amp was stable, harmonics suppressed to specs, etc. -- use it. (i.e., emission standards obeyed.) DISCLAIMER: Great care should be taken with any "broadband amp", as any "flaw" in the xmitters output is only amplified, linearly/proportionally, to the amps' gain, in the amps output! ADDITIONAL DISCLAIMER: BEWARE OF ATTORNEYS/LAWYERS and "HAREBRAINED BUREAUCRATS!" Regards, JS |
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John Smith wrote:
... ADDITIONAL DISCLAIMER: BEWARE OF ATTORNEYS/LAWYERS and "HAREBRAINED BUREAUCRATS!" Regards, JS Thinking about the above, for a bit: ADDITION TO THE ADDITIONAL DISCLAIMER: If you should ever find a "HAREBRANED BUREAUCRATIC ATTORNEY/LAWYER"--RUN! chuckle Regards, JS |
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gwatts wrote:
We should all read 97.315 *in it's entirety*, and consider 97.315(b)(3), (b) The requirement of paragraph (a) does not apply if one or more of the following conditions are met: (1) ... (2) ... (3) The amplifier is sold to an amateur radio operator or to a dealer, the amplifier is purchased in used condition by a dealer, or *the amplifier is sold to an amateur radio operator for use at that operator's station*. This (the emphasized) says to me that as an amateur licensee I can use any amplifier as long as I observe amateur emission regulations. Respectfully, Galen, W8LNA All of 97.315: [Revised as of October 1, 2007] From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access [CITE: 47CFR97.315] Sec. 97.315 Certification of external RF power amplifiers. (a) Any external RF power amplifier (see Sec. 2.815 of the FCC Rules) manufactured or imported for use at an amateur radio station must be certificated for use in the amateur service in accordance with subpart J of part 2 of the FCC Rules. No amplifier capable of operation below 144 MHz may be constructed or modified by a non-amateur service licensee without a grant of certification from the FCC. (b) The requirement of paragraph (a) does not apply if one or more of the following conditions are met: (1) The amplifier is constructed or modified by an amateur radio operator for use at an amateur station. (2) The amplifier was manufactured before April 28, 1978, and has been issued a marketing waiver by the FCC, or the amplifier was purchased before April 28, 1978, by an amateur radio operator for use at that operator's station. (3) The amplifier is sold to an amateur radio operator or to a dealer, the amplifier is purchased in used condition by a dealer, or the amplifier is sold to an amateur radio operator for use at that operator's station. (c) Any external RF power amplifier appearing in the Commission's database as certificated for use in the amateur service may be marketed for use in the amateur service. OK, I think I got it now. The only things no longer allowed a 1) Stealing an amp rather than buying it. 2) Direct sales from a manufacturer or importer to anyone other than an amateur or a dealer. The dealer loophole means that 97.315 is a total waste of ink and paper. 73, Gene W4SZ |
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Gene Fuller wrote:
... OK, I think I got it now. The only things no longer allowed a 1) Stealing an amp rather than buying it. 2) Direct sales from a manufacturer or importer to anyone other than an amateur or a dealer. The dealer loophole means that 97.315 is a total waste of ink and paper. 73, Gene W4SZ Now, while I think No. 1, "Stealing an amp rather than buying it", is, quite obviously, illegal, why in the world should one be required to be an amateur to purchase ANY, SPECIFIC, piece/module/system of electronic equipment??? There 'ya go, that "want for common sense" crops up once again! Could you, EXACTLY, explain the logic in that to me? I am waiting ... (or, No. 2, above) Regards, JS |
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John Smith wrote:
... Now, while I think No. 1, "Stealing an amp rather than buying it", is, quite obviously, illegal, why in the world should one be required to be an amateur to purchase ANY, SPECIFIC, piece/module/system of electronic equipment??? There 'ya go, that "want for common sense" crops up once again! Could you, EXACTLY, explain the logic in that to me? I am waiting ... (or, No. 2, above) Regards, JS Well, hold on, just got in from a road trip to Sacto, CA, have had time to "cool down." I will exclude any mechanical/electrical/electronic/esoteric/etc., strategic/military/etc. equipment of importance from that question ... amateur equipment is FREE of those restrictions, IMHO ... Regards, JS |
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John Smith wrote:
And, between: mechanical/electrical/electronic/esoteric/etc. and: strategic/military/etc. put an "of" Geesh, I am getting old ... but the "spirit" ain't (or is that isn't) getting tired, yet! Regards, JS |
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John Smith wrote:
Gene Fuller wrote: ... OK, I think I got it now. The only things no longer allowed a 1) Stealing an amp rather than buying it. 2) Direct sales from a manufacturer or importer to anyone other than an amateur or a dealer. The dealer loophole means that 97.315 is a total waste of ink and paper. 73, Gene W4SZ Now, while I think No. 1, "Stealing an amp rather than buying it", is, quite obviously, illegal, why in the world should one be required to be an amateur to purchase ANY, SPECIFIC, piece/module/system of electronic equipment??? There 'ya go, that "want for common sense" crops up once again! Could you, EXACTLY, explain the logic in that to me? I am waiting ... (or, No. 2, above) Regards, JS I have never made any comment about what "should" be the law. What appears is that 97.315 is now totally useless for any purpose. It is no longer necessary for any manufacturer or importer to get a certification for external RF amps as long as they sell such items only to amateurs (OK) or "dealers". I don't know if the FCC defines the term "dealer" or if there are any restrictions on what "dealers" may sell. This section of the law was originally intended to minimize the number of high powered amps available for CB use. It now appears that the only requirement for legal sale of such amps is that they pass through a "dealer". Usage is another question, but how many multi-kW CBers would worry about that? 73, Gene W4SZ |
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Gene Fuller wrote:
... I have never made any comment about what "should" be the law. What appears is that 97.315 is now totally useless for any purpose. It is no longer necessary for any manufacturer or importer to get a certification for external RF amps as long as they sell such items only to amateurs (OK) or "dealers". I don't know if the FCC defines the term "dealer" or if there are any restrictions on what "dealers" may sell. This section of the law was originally intended to minimize the number of high powered amps available for CB use. It now appears that the only requirement for legal sale of such amps is that they pass through a "dealer". Usage is another question, but how many multi-kW CBers would worry about that? 73, Gene W4SZ Gene; Perhaps I have "had a bad day." Or, perhaps I was "too quick." Or, perhaps my understanding was lacking, etc. ... Well, I certainly see no reason that a CB'er exceeding 5w is NOT in violation of the law. But to your question, "... how many multi-kW CBers would worry about that?" My answer: Every damn one that is breaking that law! Either pay the fines, do the time, or change that law! (or, "we" change it.) I stand corrected, I did not have the "beef" with you, it seems, I had imagined ... I crawl back to my hole ... I stand corrected ... please accept my apologies. Warm regards, JS |
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"Gene Fuller" wrote in message ... John Smith wrote: Gene Fuller wrote: ... OK, I think I got it now. The only things no longer allowed a 1) Stealing an amp rather than buying it. 2) Direct sales from a manufacturer or importer to anyone other than an amateur or a dealer. The dealer loophole means that 97.315 is a total waste of ink and paper. 73, Gene W4SZ Now, while I think No. 1, "Stealing an amp rather than buying it", is, quite obviously, illegal, why in the world should one be required to be an amateur to purchase ANY, SPECIFIC, piece/module/system of electronic equipment??? There 'ya go, that "want for common sense" crops up once again! Could you, EXACTLY, explain the logic in that to me? I am waiting ... (or, No. 2, above) Regards, JS I have never made any comment about what "should" be the law. What appears is that 97.315 is now totally useless for any purpose. It is no longer necessary for any manufacturer or importer to get a certification for external RF amps as long as they sell such items only to amateurs (OK) or "dealers". I don't know if the FCC defines the term "dealer" or if there are any restrictions on what "dealers" may sell. This section of the law was originally intended to minimize the number of high powered amps available for CB use. It now appears that the only requirement for legal sale of such amps is that they pass through a "dealer". Usage is another question, but how many multi-kW CBers would worry about that? 73, Gene W4SZ rules to limit non-amateur use of transmitters and amps should be other places anyway so its probably just as well that part 97 doesn't really limit what a ham can use. we are, after all, the ones who have to pass the technical exams and follow relatively technical rules. So we should be able to use whatever we can operate within our allocated frequencies, modes and powers. As opposed to fixed channel, power limited, appliances that are the legal radios for other services. |
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John Smith wrote:
Gene; Perhaps I have "had a bad day." Or, perhaps I was "too quick." Or, perhaps my understanding was lacking, etc. ... Well, I certainly see no reason that a CB'er exceeding 5w is NOT in violation of the law. But to your question, "... how many multi-kW CBers would worry about that?" My answer: Every damn one that is breaking that law! Either pay the fines, do the time, or change that law! (or, "we" change it.) I stand corrected, I did not have the "beef" with you, it seems, I had imagined ... I crawl back to my hole ... I stand corrected ... please accept my apologies. Warm regards, JS Uhhh, perhaps with some explanation ... darn that thinking ... although I used to be an Alter Boy, it didn't take ... :-( I did drive truck, decades ago ... I have exceeded power levels/freqs (dates, freqs, power-levels and times withheld to protect "the innocent" ....) What can I say?; some occupations come with "liabilities" ... ;-) Regards, JS |
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On 29 Jul 2008 05:20:36 GMT, Ed
wrote: If you ever think about posting to the moderated group, don't ... Here is an example of a censored post, of mine: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 A 5 KW amplifier is not lawful for use under Part 97. Please strike reference on any resubmit. - K3FU I'm pretty sure a ham CAN use a 5KW PA, as long as he limits the power out to the maximum allowed under our FCC rules. Its not the hardware that is not permited, its the actual power out that counts. Ed K7AAT The relevant language in part 97 is that the available power to the final amplifier stage must not exceed 1 kW for armature use. Other jurisdictions have their own rules. |
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On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 19:45:19 GMT, Bruce in alaska
wrote: In article , Cecil Moore wrote: John Smith quoted someone: "A 5 KW amplifier is not lawful for use under Part 97." Back in the 60's, a ham friend of mine ran a surplus AM transmitter capable of 10KW output. However, he never adjusted his input power to more than the legal 1KW limit. Whom, ever "Someone" is, he isn't versed in 47CFR97, and doesn't understand, or can't comprehend, the actual Rule that Part 97 operations are REQUIRED to operate under. Specifically Part 97.313. I wonder if "Said Person" has ever actually READ 47CFR90.313? Apparently NOT...... For all you disinterested parties http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_20...7cfr90.313.htm [Code of Federal Regulations] [Title 47, Volume 5] [Revised as of October 1, 2007] From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access [CITE: 47CFR90.313] [Page 390] TITLE 47--TELECOMMUNICATION CHAPTER I--FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION (CONTINUED) PART 90_PRIVATE LAND MOBILE RADIO SERVICES--Table of Contents Subpart L_Authorization in the Band 470 512 MHz (UHF-TV Sharing) Sec. 90.313 Frequency loading criteria. (a) Except as provided for in paragraph (b) of this section, the maximum channel loading on frequencies in the 470-512 MHz band is as follows: (1) 50 units for systems eligible in the Public Safety Pool (see Sec. 90.20(a)). (2) 90 units for systems eligible in the Industrial/Business Pool (see Sec. 90.35(a)). (b) If a licensee has exclusive use of a frequency, then the loading standards in paragraph (a) of this section, may be exceeded. If it is a shared channel, the loading standards can be exceeded upon submission of a signed statement by all those sharing the channel agreeing to the increase. (c) A unit is defined as a mobile transmitter-receiver. Loading standards will be applied in terms of the number of units actually in use or to be placed in use within 8 months following authorization. A licensee will be required to show that an assigned frequency pair is at full capacity before it may be assigned a second or additional frequency pair. Channel capacity may be reached either by the requirements of a single licensee or by several users sharing a channel. Until a channel is loaded to capacity it will be available for assignment to other users in the same area. A frequency pair may be reassigned at distances 64 km. (40 mi.), 32 km. (20 mi.) for Channel 15, Chicago; Channel 20, Philadelphia; and Channel 17, Washington, or more from the location of base stations authorized on that pair without reference to loading at the point of original installation. Following authorization, the licensee shall notify the Commission either during or at the close of the 8 month period of the number of units in operation. In the Industrial Radio Services, if the base station facility is to be used by more than a single licensee, the frequency assigned to it will not be reassigned for use by another facility within 64 km. (40 mi.) or 32 km. (20 mi.) where applicable for a period of 12 months, Provided, That the facility is constructed within 90 days from the date of the first grant, meets the loading standards to at least 50 percent within 9 months, and meets all loading standards within 12 months. [43 FR 54791, Nov. 22, 1978, as amended at 47 FR 36649, Aug. 23, 1982; 62 FR 18933, Apr. 17, 1997] |
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On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:42:44 -0500, Cecil Moore
wrote: Bruce in alaska wrote: Whom, ever "Someone" is, he isn't versed in 47CFR97, and doesn't understand, or can't comprehend, the actual Rule that Part 97 operations are REQUIRED to operate under. Specifically Part 97.313. I wonder if "Said Person" has ever actually READ 47CFR90.313? Apparently NOT...... I fail to see how "never adjusting his input power to more than the legal 1KW limit" violated 97.313. Oh 97 instead of 90, see: http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_20...7cfr97.313.htm |
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