The Strange True Story of a Radio Station's Transmitter in NewYorkState
 

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Tesla was responsible for AC power distribution, which ****ed Edison
off.

Rumor was that Edison couldn't understand how one could
measure 120 volts between any two of three terminals.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

The Strange True Story of a Radio Station's Transmitter in New York State
 

"Walt Davidson" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 9 Aug 2008 14:35:25 +0100, "Alec"
wrote:

Back at about the same time the BBC had (and still has) a powerful
transmitter on 200khz (now198) a local farmer who lived close to the
station
built a large tuning coil in the loft and lit his house using fluorescent
tubes.

He was successfully prosecuted for stealing electricity or something
similar.

If this is true (and I have no reason to doubt it), did it make the
signal weaker for everybody else?

73 de G3NYY



Only in the near field (at the site). Theoretically, there is a limit to
the number of receivers for any one signal (swamping), but that number has
never been approached.

As for the original story, I can verify that it CAN be done, and is done
inadvertantly in places where homes are found in the area of an 'antenna
farm'. In Portland, for instance, the antenna farm for the high powered FM
signals is in a residential shared area. Some homes within that area that
use fluorescent lighting still have some light from the tubes with the
switch turned off. This is not full light, but neither are they using a
tuned circuit.

The Strange True Story of a Radio Station's Transmitter in NewYork State
 

Rumor was that Edison couldn't understand how one could
measure 120 volts between any two of three terminals.

No rumor about it. Westinghouse published several papers on electricity
where he described voltage and current phase and had a true understanding of
it. Edison was a hands-on experimenter who had little theoretical physics
or mathematics background. That's why the two had a feud about AC vs DC.
After Edison's assistant died of radiation poisoning, he was very leary of
things he didn't understand and tried to convince people that AC current was
just too dangerous. He also refused any more experiments concerning
radiation.

The Strange True Story of a Radio Station's Transmitter in NewYorkState
 

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
christopher wrote:
Didn't Tesla propose using DC current, basically broadcast/produced from
thousands of transmitters. In order to use the electrical current/field,
all one had to do was ground one side/wire to Earth. The other side or
wire would be the receptor/antenna for lack of a better term.

I'm not a technical person but I think I have the basic premise right.


No. It wasn't DC, since DC is direct current. That was Edison who
would have needed a power plant every half mile or so. Tesla was hyping
"Broadcast power" which was lossy broadband RF power that would wipe out
most of the usable RF spectrum. Due to the 'Inverse Square Law', it was
impractical, and always will be.

Tesla was responsible for AC power distribution, which ****ed Edison
off.


Tesla worked for Edison when he came up with AC power distribution.
Edison favored DC for some reason and Tesla quit and went to work for
Westinghouse. When the electric chair was proposed Edison did everything
he could to discredit it because it used Tesla's AC power.

Dave N

The Strange True Story of a Radio Station's Transmitter in NewYork State
 

"David G. Nagel" wrote in message
...
Tesla worked for Edison when he came up with AC power distribution.
Edison favored DC for some reason and Tesla quit and went to work for
Westinghouse. When the electric chair was proposed Edison did everything
he could to discredit it because it used Tesla's AC power.


"The first electric chair was made by Harold P. Brown. Brown was an employee
of Thomas Edison, hired for the purpose of researching electrocution and for
the development of the electric chair. Since Brown worked for Edison, and
Edison promoted Brown's work, the development of the electric chair is often
erroneously credited to Edison himself. Brown's design was based on use of
Nikola Tesla's alternating current (AC), which was marketed by George
Westinghouse and was then just emerging as the rival to Edison's less
transport-efficient direct current (DC), which was further along in
commercial development. The decision to use AC was partly driven by Edison's
claims that AC was more lethal than DC."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_chair

John H.

The Strange True Story of a Radio Station's Transmitter inNewYorkState
 

"David G. Nagel" wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
christopher wrote:
Didn't Tesla propose using DC current, basically broadcast/produced from
thousands of transmitters. In order to use the electrical current/field,
all one had to do was ground one side/wire to Earth. The other side or
wire would be the receptor/antenna for lack of a better term.

I'm not a technical person but I think I have the basic premise right.


No. It wasn't DC, since DC is direct current. That was Edison who
would have needed a power plant every half mile or so. Tesla was hyping
"Broadcast power" which was lossy broadband RF power that would wipe out
most of the usable RF spectrum. Due to the 'Inverse Square Law', it was
impractical, and always will be.

Tesla was responsible for AC power distribution, which ****ed Edison
off.


Tesla worked for Edison when he came up with AC power distribution.
Edison favored DC for some reason and Tesla quit and went to work for
Westinghouse. When the electric chair was proposed Edison did everything
he could to discredit it because it used Tesla's AC power.


Explain why Edison Electrocuted an Elephant with AC. He wanted people
to think AC was too dangerous to use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topsy_(elephant)


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The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

The Strange True Story of a Radio Station's Transmitter in NewYorkState
 

David G. Nagel wrote:

Tesla worked for Edison when he came up with AC power distribution.
Edison favored DC for some reason and Tesla quit and went to work for
Westinghouse. When the electric chair was proposed Edison did everything
he could to discredit it because it used Tesla's AC power.


Just the opposite. He was trying to discredit AC power by using the
electric chair as an example of how dangerous it was. Edison had a lot
of money tied up in DC generators and distribution. He didn't want
competition, especially from a superior technology.


mike


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The Strange True Story of a Radio Station's Transmitter in New York State
 

I've heard variants of this story for years, but have yet to see one shred
of real
evidence that it actually occurred.

The closest I've seen that could be regarded as 'real' evidence was a memo
that
circulated around PP&L (Pennsylvania Power and Light) back in the summer of
1972 or 73 that mentioned a farmer that ALLEGEDLY got shocks off a coil of
fence wire he was installing. (The power right of way went over his pasture
and
the indication was that he was stringing a fence under one of the then new
extremely high voltage lines. 750KV if I remember, but maybe only 500KV.)

Even then, I thought the right of ways were 'clear' under the big lines,
which
makes even this story suspect.

Mike



"Walt Davidson" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 9 Aug 2008 14:35:25 +0100, "Alec"
wrote:

Back at about the same time the BBC had (and still has) a powerful
transmitter on 200khz (now198) a local farmer who lived close to the
station
built a large tuning coil in the loft and lit his house using fluorescent
tubes.

He was successfully prosecuted for stealing electricity or something
similar.

If this is true (and I have no reason to doubt it), did it make the
signal weaker for everybody else?

73 de G3NYY

--
Walt Davidson Email: g3nyy @despammed.com

The Strange True Story of a Radio Station's Transmitter in New York State
 

the electric field under ehv lines can be high enough to give shocks,
especially if it were a long piece of wire insulated from the ground running
along or across the right of way. There can also be other factors, magnetic
induction is possible if the wire is long enough and he was closing a loop
of it, like the top wire of an electric fence would be. There can also be
ground currents due to imbalance in the 3 phases between substations, the
currents induced on the static wire that is attached to the towers, leaky
insulator strings, leaky lightning arresters, etc. the fields at ground
level are supposed to be calculated into the design by the utility to be
below the specified safe levels, but changes in ground moisture, air
humidity, temperature, sag in the line caused by resistive or solar heating,
can cause unexpected shocking experiences on the ground. where i used to
work we would demonstrate that for utility engineers by setting up a worst
case test line, having them measure the fields, and then do things like hold
up a metal ribbed umbrella or touch a key to a car door lock.

note though that these are 60hz currents, the human body is relatively
sensitive to that frequency and it is easily detected by most people. lf or
mf radio frequencies are less likely to be directly felt unless they get
high enough of a voltage/current to burn.

"Mike Y" wrote in message
...
I've heard variants of this story for years, but have yet to see one shred
of real
evidence that it actually occurred.

The closest I've seen that could be regarded as 'real' evidence was a memo
that
circulated around PP&L (Pennsylvania Power and Light) back in the summer
of
1972 or 73 that mentioned a farmer that ALLEGEDLY got shocks off a coil of
fence wire he was installing. (The power right of way went over his
pasture
and
the indication was that he was stringing a fence under one of the then new
extremely high voltage lines. 750KV if I remember, but maybe only 500KV.)

Even then, I thought the right of ways were 'clear' under the big lines,
which
makes even this story suspect.

Mike



"Walt Davidson" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 9 Aug 2008 14:35:25 +0100, "Alec"
wrote:

Back at about the same time the BBC had (and still has) a powerful
transmitter on 200khz (now198) a local farmer who lived close to the
station
built a large tuning coil in the loft and lit his house using
fluorescent
tubes.

He was successfully prosecuted for stealing electricity or something
similar.

If this is true (and I have no reason to doubt it), did it make the
signal weaker for everybody else?

73 de G3NYY

--
Walt Davidson Email: g3nyy @despammed.com

The Strange True Story of a Radio Station's Transmitter in NewYork State
 

Mike Y wrote:
I've heard variants of this story for years, but have yet to see one
shred of real evidence that it actually occurred.

The closest I've seen that could be regarded as 'real' evidence was a
memo that circulated around PP&L (Pennsylvania Power and Light) back
in the summer of 1972 or 73 that mentioned a farmer that ALLEGEDLY
got shocks off a coil of fence wire he was installing. (The power
right of way went over his pasture and the indication was that he was
stringing a fence under one of the then new extremely high voltage
lines. 750KV if I remember, but maybe only 500KV.)

Yes, this can easily happen. A few years ago, I was doing some
consulting work for a major power company at one of their very high
voltage substations. EVERYTHING was hot, from the fence surrounding the
property to the doorknobs on the buildings to the employee cars parked
on the property. Even though this site was usually unattended, to a man,
all the power company employees disliked pulling maintenance duty there.

Even then, I thought the right of ways were 'clear' under the big
lines, which makes even this story suspect.

What do you mean by "clear"? Yes, they clear the brush under their right
of way (which can pass over private property) , but I don't think
anyone has repealed the laws of induction and electrostatic fields. So,
your story above doesn't surprise me in the least.

P.S.

When I worked for CBS TV, they also owned a 50 kW AM station connected
to (at the time) a 12(!) tower directional array. At homes in the main
lobe of the pattern, I can relate many stories of shocks off of aluminum
siding, TV rabbit ear antennas, lights staying on, detected audio being
rectified and coming through the forced air heating ducts, etc, etc.
However, I never heard of anyone stealing power as related by the OP.

The Strange True Story of a Radio Station's Transmitter in NewYork State
 

Mike- Tho this NOT about R.F., it is about induction- Many years ago,
we had a working telephone line, from K.Falls, Or to Tule Lake, Ca.
About 1/4 mile away a power line (1/2 Megavolt) was installed, running
next to our line for some 5 miles ! When power company fired it up,
instantly the line was unusable-- Measured over 400 VOLTS of escape
in telegraph office- worse- at a detector, a maintainer (these were
Fiberglass houses) grabbed on to the door handle, and was knocked to
the ground ! Power company supplied us with 60 cycle filters, but the
line still had too much noise to be usable! And, another incident- in
Portland, had a Phone line to Eugene, passed KXL (1190KHz?) radio
station- Had enough leakage, that it got into the baseband of our
microwave system!
we wern't using baseband that high, but when FCC inspected our El Paso,
Texas facility, cited us for re-transmitting that signal, on our
microwave system! Take it to the bank-- dumb things happen! Jim NN7K

Mike Y wrote:
I've heard variants of this story for years, but have yet to see one shred
of real
evidence that it actually occurred.

The closest I've seen that could be regarded as 'real' evidence was a memo
that
circulated around PP&L (Pennsylvania Power and Light) back in the summer of
1972 or 73 that mentioned a farmer that ALLEGEDLY got shocks off a coil of
fence wire he was installing. (The power right of way went over his pasture
and
the indication was that he was stringing a fence under one of the then new
extremely high voltage lines. 750KV if I remember, but maybe only 500KV.)

Even then, I thought the right of ways were 'clear' under the big lines,
which
makes even this story suspect.

Mike

The Strange True Story of a Radio Station's Transmitter in New York State
 

"Jim-NN7K" . wrote in message
...
And, another incident- in
Portland, had a Phone line to Eugene, passed KXL (1190KHz?) radio station-
Had enough leakage, that it got into the baseband of our microwave system!
we wern't using baseband that high, but when FCC inspected our El Paso,
Texas facility, cited us for re-transmitting that signal, on our microwave
system! Take it to the bank-- dumb things happen! Jim NN7K

KXL (5000 watts) is at 750 KHz. KEX (50,000 watts) is at 1190 KHz. If your
system was anywhere near I-205 at Clackamas, then it would not surprise me
that KEX would get into it. Once I was driving by their tower site and
decided to be funny. It was in my 1969 Pontiac wagon. I commented to my
passengers that "I bet I can really get a good signal from KEX right now.."
and punched the button for KEX on my car radio.. which greeted me with total
silence! I just happened to punch that button while in the strongest part of
their pattern, and it took out the RF amp and local oscillator in the radio
(damn, that was a good radio, too...)

The Strange True Story of a Radio Station's Transmitter in NewYork State
 

Brenda Ann wrote:
"Jim-NN7K" . wrote in message
...
And, another incident- in
Portland, had a Phone line to Eugene, passed KXL (1190KHz?) radio station-
Had enough leakage, that it got into the baseband of our microwave system!
we wern't using baseband that high, but when FCC inspected our El Paso,
Texas facility, cited us for re-transmitting that signal, on our microwave
system! Take it to the bank-- dumb things happen! Jim NN7K

KXL (5000 watts) is at 750 KHz. KEX (50,000 watts) is at 1190 KHz. If your
system was anywhere near I-205 at Clackamas, then it would not surprise me
that KEX would get into it. Once I was driving by their tower site and
decided to be funny. It was in my 1969 Pontiac wagon. I commented to my
passengers that "I bet I can really get a good signal from KEX right now.."
and punched the button for KEX on my car radio.. which greeted me with total
silence! I just happened to punch that button while in the strongest part of
their pattern, and it took out the RF amp and local oscillator in the radio
(damn, that was a good radio, too...)



Correct-- this from memory of around 35 years ago (Comm Tech for
Southern Pacific (Now Union Pacific)-- Main Line ran real close to their
towers! Signal came from a microwave carrier, installed as should be (
Balances wires, shield on one end grounded- had to ground BOTH ends,
to get rid of signal! Also had to string Grounds from the clock tower
at Union Station, a pretty good trick, as high as it is! Jim

The Strange True Story of a Radio Station's Transmitter in New York State
 

"Brenda Ann" wrote in message
...

"Jim-NN7K" . wrote in message
...
And, another incident- in
Portland, had a Phone line to Eugene, passed KXL (1190KHz?) radio
station- Had enough leakage, that it got into the baseband of our
microwave system!
we wern't using baseband that high, but when FCC inspected our El Paso,
Texas facility, cited us for re-transmitting that signal, on our
microwave system! Take it to the bank-- dumb things happen! Jim NN7K

KXL (5000 watts) is at 750 KHz.

KXL has been 50 kw days at least back to 1972... that is as far as I wanted
to check it in the Jones Log and Broadcasting Yearbook.

http://www.davidgleason.com/Archive-...0Tennessee.pdf

The Strange True Story of a Radio Station's Transmitter in New York State
 

"Jim-NN7K" . wrote in message
...
Mike- Tho this NOT about R.F., it is about induction-

I agree. And while I realizeit's quite possible to get 'shocks' off an
induction
coupling that essentially goes to a high impedance, it's a far cry from
being
able to 'power a house' with a broadcast transmitter that wasn't designed
for the purpose. Yes, Tesla lit up bulbs, in one case a reported 50 miles
from his transmitter site, but that was with a setup specifically geared to
transmit power with brute force, with fairly huge receiving antennas
specifically designed to pull the power from the broadcast wave.

And before someone brings up RFID tags... Tags are DESIGNED to work in
the RF field. They actually couple magnetically like a transformer to the
readers
antenna. But realize how fast the field falls off and what limited range
they have.

But actually, in reference to the original comment, I believe IF someone did
pull power from the air, it WOULD degrade the broadcast signal.

Mike

The Strange True Story of a Radio Station's Transmitter in NewYork State
 

Mike Y wrote:
And while I realizeit's quite possible to get 'shocks' off an
induction
coupling that essentially goes to a high impedance, it's a far cry from
being
able to 'power a house' with a broadcast transmitter that wasn't designed
for the purpose.

The original story that I heard about 40 years ago is
that it involved 60 Hz high-voltage power lines. A
farmer is supposed to have built an induction coil
in a shed directly beneath the power lines and picked
up free energy.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

The Strange True Story of a Radio Station's Transmitter in New York State
 

Cecil Moore wrote in
:

Mike Y wrote:
And while I realizeit's quite possible to get 'shocks' off an
induction
coupling that essentially goes to a high impedance, it's a far cry
from being
able to 'power a house' with a broadcast transmitter that wasn't
designed for the purpose.

The original story that I heard about 40 years ago is
that it involved 60 Hz high-voltage power lines. A
farmer is supposed to have built an induction coil
in a shed directly beneath the power lines and picked
up free energy.



I've read that typically 1/3 of the current in a multiple ground
wye connected transmission system returns though the earth.
Seems a shame not to pass it though a few lightbulbs as it
passes by!

There was a story just a few years ago about a farmer that was
obtaining power from a fence running parallel to a transmission
line. He went to court and eventually won his case since this
power was already lost in the return resistance of the earth
and the power company failed to contain the current within their
transmission line. I can't recall what he was doing with it.

There was a room in the building of my last employer where no VDT
would function properly. We had a survey instrument in the EMI lab
so we gave it a try. The 60Hz magentic field in that room was intense.
We pulled down some ceiling tiles and found a large steel beam that
spanned the length of the building went to ground there. The beam
was parallel to the transmission line about 50ft just beyond the
outside wall. There was a substation was about 250ft away. I'm
sure the beam was grounded at both ends. Seems like the orientation
wasn't best for inductive coupling. Could have been carrying some
of the return current. A rough estimate of the current had it in the
hundreds of amperes. I can't account for it. Strange but true.

Later I heard from a former coworker who got a job with Super
Computers Inc then spent his first year mapping the "stray voltage"
at a site before they built their facility there. They found it can
cause problems with their process instrumentation.

The Strange True Story of a Radio Station's Transmitter in NewYork State
 

Grumpy The Mule wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote in
:

Mike Y wrote:
And while I realizeit's quite possible to get 'shocks' off an
induction
coupling that essentially goes to a high impedance, it's a far cry
from being
able to 'power a house' with a broadcast transmitter that wasn't
designed for the purpose.
The original story that I heard about 40 years ago is
that it involved 60 Hz high-voltage power lines. A
farmer is supposed to have built an induction coil
in a shed directly beneath the power lines and picked
up free energy.

Hmm.. a bit of physics..

Induced voltage is Nturns*dPhi/dt
dPhi/dt - change in flux (Webers) per second

Flux is area of coil * B field.

AC field under a HV power line is typically around 1-10 microTesla.

So, the peak flux through a 1 square meter coil is about 10 microWeber.
At 60Hz, the maximum slope is 2*pi*frequency, or 377, so now, we're up
to 377*10E-6, or 377E-5 or 3.77E-3.. about 4 millivolts..

Now, lets assume a coil that's 10x10 meters.. that's 100 square meters,
so we're up to 0.4 volts, open circuit voltage, for one turn.

Now, let's say our ambitious farmer winds 100 turns.. now we're up to 40
Volts. But, that coil is 4000 meters of wire (100 turns * 40
meters/turn), and will have non-zero resistance. Let's say our farmer
used AWG 10 wire. about 1 ohm/1000 ft, so call it 13 ohms all told
(4000 m is approximately 13000 ft).

So we have a source with 40V open circuit output voltage and 13 ohm
output Z. If we hook up a matched load (another 13 ohms), it will have
20 Volts across it, and dissipate about 30 watts in the load and 30
watts in the loop.

Now, at $0.10/kWh, and 0.03kW, that's about $26/year

Of course, there's the labor in building that coil.
And, the cost of the wire. (400lb of copper at $3/lb is $1200)

Sure, you'd use aluminum wire, so you could cut that down by a factor of
3 or so.. So, invest a lot of hours stringing up that coil, and a few
hundred bucks in aluminum, and save $30/year...

Excellent economics there..