Tilted radiator
 

Art Unwin wrote:

...
Sometimes you just have to do it for yourself instead of the use of
free speech
where there is no accountability

We have a few words to describe such, here in America (well, real
Americans do anyway):

"Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me." --
source unknown.

It dates back to about the time of our forefathers drafting of the
constitution, if not well before ...

IMHO, it could not be said better.

Regards,
JS

Tilted radiator
 

"Art Unwin" wrote
These were shore based installations probably in Hawaii or some island.
With respect to resonance, moving away from such as well as changing
from 15 degrees (Frank's 30 degrees divided by two) would provide a pattern
of distinct advantage which the navy is constantly looking for. For a whip
tipped at an angle of 15 degrees can provide a forward pattern of gain which
can be a big deal
__________

Art -

The graphic linked below is the work of George H. Brown of RCA Labs, from a
1936 paper published in the Proceedings of the IRE.

It is a plot of surface wave field intensity vs.monopole height, including
the distance to the "fade zone" where nighttime skywave radiation returns to
earth to via reflection from the ionosphere to interfere with the surface,
or ground wave.

In it please note:

1. Maximum field strength does not occur at electrically resonant heights of
the monopole (that is, where its feed point terminal reactance is zero).

2. The characteristics plotted are not related to azimuth, therefore the
performance of a broadcast monopole will not be enhanced by "tipping." If
it was, AM broadcast stations would have been doing so starting 70 years
ago.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h8...alMonopole.gif

RF

Tilted radiator
 

On Sep 14, 2:24*pm, John Smith wrote:
Art Unwin wrote:
...
Sometimes you just have to do it for yourself instead of the use of
free speech
where there is no accountability

We have a few words to describe such, here in America (well, real
Americans do anyway):

"Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me." --
source unknown.

It dates back to about the time of our forefathers drafting of the
constitution, if not well before ...

IMHO, it could not be said better.

Regards,
JS

JS I am just trying to explain physics and radiation is simple terms
for the layman
this does lead to mis characterizations in favor of clarity.
There is an example of garbled language submitted earlier today to
give the impression
of greatness in stature. A three dimension field was explained where
it provided gain.
The person went into uneadded information to decribe something like it
was a new revalation of science
where in fact it is totally meaningless with respect to related
context. Sure I am not the best guy in explaining things as with my
spelling
but I see no pleasure of infering the silliness of another person by
inflating my own significance by the use of a loose mouth,
Apparently others do !
When the new patent comes out I expect the same comments that I have
heard in the past
I knew that! everybody knows that. What use is it etc
Look to the past and you will see the outlines of the future
It would thrill me to bits if I was given an example where mathematics
proved me wrong as it would give me a reason to re evaluate things
a process I enjoy but that is not to be
Best regards
I have a old mercedes in storage and my daughter has a need for a car
and has asked for it so I have to replaces the deisel lines as they
have probably swelled and some other things. I think it is a bit of
cheek but then it will be nice to see it on the road again
My present deisel that I drive of the same manufacturer she says she
doesn't like.......Women come from Venus no less
Art Unwin KB9MZ.......xg

Tilted radiator
 

On Sep 14, 3:18*pm, "Richard Fry" wrote:
"Art Unwin" wroteThese were shore based installations probably in Hawaii or some island.
With respect to resonance, moving away from such as well as changing

from 15 degrees (Frank's 30 degrees divided by two) would provide a pattern
of distinct advantage which the navy is constantly looking for. *For a whip
tipped at an angle of 15 degrees can provide a forward pattern of gain which
can be a big deal
__________

Art -

The graphic linked below is the work of George H. Brown of RCA Labs, from a
1936 paper published in the Proceedings of the IRE.

It is a plot of surface wave field intensity vs.monopole height, including
the distance to the "fade zone" where nighttime skywave radiation returns to
earth to via reflection from the ionosphere to interfere with the surface,
or ground wave.

In it please note:

1. Maximum field strength does not occur at electrically resonant heights of
the monopole (that is, where its feed point terminal reactance is zero).
I will look at the URL later Now I put the resonance as second to
equilibrium
as with equilibrium the need for a ground plane is negated In general
terms broadcast stations want equal radiation
around the point of installation knowing that the decibel is not
discernable in their audiance ears





2. The characteristics plotted are not related to azimuth, therefore the
performance of a broadcast monopole will not be enhanced by "tipping." *If
it was, AM broadcast stations would have been doing so starting 70 years
ago.
That is what Harrison said. He also said we have one method of
radiation so why do we need another?
Brown had no reason to isolate horizontal propagation from vertical
propagation and because construction
is way more simple relative to Earth there is no reason to reinvent
the wheel. The Yagi method of radiation
is a very good approximation even tho it disregards the weak force as
it deals more with total gain versus the polarity
of the field. Present day science have more demands on radiation than
Brown would realize. My wife nearly died last year because of a slight
misdirection
at the hospital when a needle nicked the liver when the medical people
placed to much reliance on provided measurements that were beyond the
capabilities of the equipment. As science grows so does understanding
and so does use of radiation which has requirements
way beyond a radio station


Regards
Art

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h8...fVerticalMonop...

RF

Tilted radiator
 

"Art Unwin" wrote
I will look at the URL later.

We all know that already you have looked at it, Art.

Now I put the resonance as second to equilibrium as with
equilibrium the need for a ground plane is negated.

"Now" that possibly you might understand that resonance of antennas is
unimportant? (Let us hope so.)

Also note that none of the Masters which you continually reference has
written anything whatsoever about any "equilibrium" needed for the efficient
radiation of antenna systems, with or without a "ground plane."

2. The characteristics plotted are not related to azimuth, therefore
the performance of a broadcast monopole will not be enhanced by
"tipping." If it was, AM broadcast stations would have been doing
so starting 70 years ago.

Brown had no reason to isolate horizontal propagation from vertical
propagation and because construction is way more simple relative
to Earth there is no reason to reinvent the wheel.

Arthur -- please note that a vertical monopole generates only
vertically-polarized EM waves in the far field. Brown had no need / reason
to investigate or comment on h-pol fields from such radiators, as for the
conditions of his investigations they did not exist.

The Yagi method of radiation is a very good approximation even tho
it disregards the weak force as it deals more with total gain versus
the polarity of the field.

"Polarity" is not synonymous with polarization, Arthur. Please learn and
respect the difference, if you wish your posts to be (somewhat) more
credible.

RF

Tilted radiator
 

On Sep 14, 6:44*pm, "Richard Fry" wrote:
"Art Unwin" wrote

I will look at the URL later.

We all know that already you have looked at it, Art.

Now I put the resonance as second to equilibrium as with
equilibrium the need for a ground plane is negated.

"Now" that possibly you might understand that resonance of antennas is
unimportant? (Let us hope so.)
I will not be the focus of a contrived auguement but I will respond
I never said that resonance was uninportant only that it is second to
equilibrium


Also note that none of the Masters which you continually reference has
written anything whatsoever about any "equilibrium" needed for the efficient
radiation of antenna systems, with or without a "ground plane."
The masters addressed thge Universal sciences of which equilibrium was
a staple
They were on the opposing side of capatalism where diminishing returns
and politics govern everything.

2. The characteristics plotted are not related to azimuth, therefore
the performance of a broadcast monopole will not be enhanced by
"tipping." If *it was, AM broadcast stations would have been doing
so starting 70 years ago.
Brown had no reason to isolate horizontal propagation from vertical
propagation and because construction is way more simple relative
to Earth there is no reason to reinvent the wheel.

Arthur -- please note that a vertical monopole generates only
vertically-polarized EM waves in the far field. *Brown had no need / reason
to investigate or comment on h-pol fields from such radiators, as for the
conditions of his investigations they did not exist.

Exactly, a case of diminishing returns thus no funds for unknown
visits into science
A brordcaster accepts the drop out of listeners at the periphary of
their signals despite
the huge area of desired customers
Now radiation has expanded enormously into wireless operations where
diminishing returns rules the industry
since that industry cannot survive with a multitude of dropped
signals. Now "value" determines the feeding of science in an area that
the masters or George could not possibly have contemplated which
raises such statements of yours where your past is rapidly being
overcome by the desires of the future such that you would question the
need. Nothing personal as you are following solely the path of your
experience which has been satisfactory for you to thus the denial for
change. But again you are welcome to your own opinions as long as they
do not interfere with mine and contempt becomes active.

The Yagi method of radiation is a very good approximation even tho
it disregards the weak force as it deals more with total gain versus
the polarity of the field.

"Polarity" is not synonymous with polarization, Arthur. *Please learn and
respect the difference, if you wish your posts to be (somewhat) more
credible.

Yes that is true and is a fault of mine Those knoweledgable in the
field understand
that error because they are looking for the positives and not the
negatives.
But it does not diminish the value of the intent !. For example Wind
shear has come into prominence
because of tragic air accidents. Present day science relies on the
transmission of a polarised signal
where the reflected signal is analysed for distortion. Problem is that
the initial signal is contaminated
with other polarities such that the returns signal is doubly
distorted thus preventing accurate analysis
of wind shear. A small problem or observation of science for which
there is a immediate need which
can be helped by the observations that some would question the need
or veracity of. Credability is built on the memory
of prior stated positions usually put to memory of print. Credability
is always in question by those resistant to change primarily guided
by what is known with the credability of printed matter since they
take comfort in numbers.
Another point Nasa is very interested in the removal of moon dust or
particles from entering space craft. I read that they had partial
success supplied from the emmission from a capacitor. What they were
really seeing was an example of equilibrium of which I talk about
where they were only using half of the cycle provided by a tank
circuit which is one of equilibrium as with a full wave radiator and
the use of the weak field. So sometimes regardless of the perceived
need of the new or change it is knoweledge that is the real measure of
wealth on this earth since its true value never diminishes.
End of my input hopefully I have responded in a way that you expected
or hoped for.
Art

RF

Tilted radiator
 

"Art Unwin" wrote

End of my input hopefully I have responded
in a way that you expected or hoped for.
Art
____________

"Hoped for" = No.

"Expected" = Yes.

RF

Tilted radiator
 

On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 17:39:51 -0700 (PDT), Art Unwin
wrote:

They were on the opposing side of capatalism where diminishing returns
and politics govern everything.

Is this a plagiarism of Marx?

Which one? Groucho, or Harpo?

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC