Locating underground conduit
 

On Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:11:13 -0700, Richard Clark
wrote:

...and the parade of roses systems control. That
photo was a blast. Did you actually have to cross your feet as part
of the control heuristics?


I'm slightly bow legged so crossing my feet is a more natural resting
position. The resting position was very important at the start of the
Rose Parade. The floats, horses, cars, etc all start getting
organized at about 4AM. The parade starts at 8AM. The floats are
never totally completed by New Year's day, so frantic last minute work
at the starting point was normal. At this point, none of those
involved have had more than one or two hours sleep, so a functional
sleeping position is a basic requirement. I installed padding on top
of the control panel for my feet.

I think I only managed to get about 30 minutes of sleep before the
unexpected happened. In 1968, we were behind an equestrian unit.
After standing in essentially the same spot for about 3 hours, the
horses deposited quite a pile of droppings on the pavement. There was
a false start somewhat before 8AM. All the floats and horses lurched
forward a few feet, placing our float directly over the pile. Besides
the smell, the real worry was what would happen if the leaky hydraulic
coupling mixed hot hydraulic fluid with horse dung. I was ready with
a large fire extinguisher. Fortunately, nothing happened but we all
nearly vomited from the stench.

If you look a the photo:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/jeffl/slides/RoseFloat01.html
you'll notice a large hinge point directly above my sleeping form.
Part of the animation was a young boy, sleeping in bed, who raises up
and scratches his eyes, when he sees the toys at the foot of the bed
come alive. The kid was huge, thus the giant hinge. It worked fairly
well throughout the parade. However, when drove the float back to
Pomona for disassembly, it was discovered that all the 5/8"(???) bolts
holding the boy to the hinge frame had halfway sheared through.

This is the current animation system:
http://cpprosefloat.org/site/page.php?23
In 1968, it was several partly insane students, flipping switches and
toggling valves by hand. Cal Poly tended to win the animation prizes.

To bring things back to ham radio antennas, we had a Motorola
Breakie-Backie "portable" radio in the float on 2 meters. Tubes,
vibrators, wet cells, and muscle. It sorta worked, but the chicken
wire covering the float made a very effective shield. The antenna
ended up hanging under the float as we didn't want it visible on top.
Someone saw the "loose wire" and clipped it off just before the start
of the parade. I made a replacement out of some baling wire. It
worked, but about half way through the parade, the vibrator power
supply quit. Oh well.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Locating underground conduit
 

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:11:13 -0700, Richard Clark
wrote:

...and the parade of roses systems control. That
photo was a blast. Did you actually have to cross your feet as part
of the control heuristics?


To bring things back to ham radio antennas, we had a Motorola
Breakie-Backie "portable" radio in the float on 2 meters.

It's a challenge to put antennas on floats and meet the TORC
requirements for only vegetable matter to be exposed. We got a special
dispensation for our 23cm ATV from the JPL float.

http://www.luxfamily.com/events/rose2005/roseatv.htm

Locating underground conduit
 

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:22:33 -0700, Jim Lux
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
To bring things back to ham radio antennas, we had a Motorola
Breakie-Backie "portable" radio in the float on 2 meters.

It's a challenge to put antennas on floats and meet the TORC
requirements for only vegetable matter to be exposed. We got a special
dispensation for our 23cm ATV from the JPL float.

http://www.luxfamily.com/events/rose2005/roseatv.htm

Things sure have changed in 40 years.

Nicely done float. How tall is it? We had stability problems with
some of the floats. The parade route was fine, but entering Victory
Park at the end was tricky. One year, some of the floats almost
tipped over.

Also, my fault tolerant memory has failed me once again. The snoozing
photo of me is from of the 1970 float:
http://cpprosefloat.org/site/plugins/autogallery/autogallery.php?show=7.Past%20Floats%2F350.1970.jp g
The float consisted of 3 islands, connected with big long throw
hydraulic rams. The float could be contracted to about 35 ft or
extended to 59.99999 ft. The fun part was turning the Orange Grove to
Colorado corner in front of the cameras, while simultaneously
extending the float. Some officials didn't know which way the float
was going to go and ran for cover.

The sheared hinge bolts were from the 1971 float:
http://cpprosefloat.org/site/plugins/autogallery/autogallery.php?show=7.Past%20Floats%2F340.1971.jp g
It also features an elephant toy, with targeting controls for a small
water pump and nozzle in the trunk. That was banned the following
year.



--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

Locating underground conduit
 

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:38:46 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:22:33 -0700, Jim Lux
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
To bring things back to ham radio antennas, we had a Motorola
Breakie-Backie "portable" radio in the float on 2 meters.

It's a challenge to put antennas on floats and meet the TORC
requirements for only vegetable matter to be exposed. We got a special
dispensation for our 23cm ATV from the JPL float.

http://www.luxfamily.com/events/rose2005/roseatv.htm

Things sure have changed in 40 years.

Nicely done float. How tall is it? We had stability problems with
some of the floats. The parade route was fine, but entering Victory
Park at the end was tricky. One year, some of the floats almost
tipped over.

Also, my fault tolerant memory has failed me once again. The snoozing
photo of me is from of the 1970 float:
http://cpprosefloat.org/site/plugins/autogallery/autogallery.php?show=7.Past%20Floats%2F350.1970.jp g
The float consisted of 3 islands, connected with big long throw
hydraulic rams. The float could be contracted to about 35 ft or
extended to 59.99999 ft. The fun part was turning the Orange Grove to
Colorado corner in front of the cameras, while simultaneously
extending the float. Some officials didn't know which way the float
was going to go and ran for cover.

The sheared hinge bolts were from the 1971 float:
http://cpprosefloat.org/site/plugins/autogallery/autogallery.php?show=7.Past%20Floats%2F340.1971.jp g
It also features an elephant toy, with targeting controls for a small
water pump and nozzle in the trunk. That was banned the following
year.

70 & 71? Maybe you met Dave Steinfeld of TORRA . I worked with him
for some years back in the day (80's).

Locating underground conduit
 

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 20:12:00 -0700, JosephKK
wrote:

70 & 71? Maybe you met Dave Steinfeld of TORRA . I worked with him
for some years back in the day (80's).

Nope. I don't recall the name. I only associated with radicals,
leftists, protesters, anarchists, dissidents, draft dodgers, and a few
engineers. If he was anything resembling a normal student, I probably
didn't meet him. Also, I don't think that TORRA existed in 1971 and
befo
http://www.torra.us/id4.html
There were very few active hams involved in construction of the floats
at Cal Poly Pomona. I think there were only 2 or 3 electrical
engineering students involved. At the time, the design and
construction was dominated by Agricultural Business Mgmt students. It
was easy to tell the difference. Engineers wore cowboy boots and ABM
students wore suits, string ties, and carried brief a case.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Locating underground conduit
 

JosephKK wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:38:46 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:22:33 -0700, Jim Lux
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
To bring things back to ham radio antennas, we had a Motorola
Breakie-Backie "portable" radio in the float on 2 meters.
It's a challenge to put antennas on floats and meet the TORC
requirements for only vegetable matter to be exposed. We got a special
dispensation for our 23cm ATV from the JPL float.

http://www.luxfamily.com/events/rose2005/roseatv.htm
Things sure have changed in 40 years.

Nicely done float. How tall is it? We had stability problems with
some of the floats. The parade route was fine, but entering Victory
Park at the end was tricky. One year, some of the floats almost
tipped over.

Don't recall how tall it was, but it laid back down to get under the
overpass at the end of the route. It was built by professional float
builders (Phoenix)
http://floatcam.caltech.edu/ has a link to video clips during
construction, etc.


70 & 71? Maybe you met Dave Steinfeld of TORRA . I worked with him
for some years back in the day (80's).

Would that be WA6ZVE? He works in the RF Cal lab here at JPL.

Locating underground conduit
 

On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:07:22 -0700, Jim Lux
wrote:

Don't recall how tall it was, but it laid back down to get under the
overpass at the end of the route. It was built by professional float
builders (Phoenix)
http://floatcam.caltech.edu/ has a link to video clips during
construction, etc.

My Real Media player is having its usual bad day. I'll look at it
later.

I forgot about the overpass. That would be a problem. One year,
someone built a float over a large fork lift. The plan was to lower
it at the overpass and again at the park entrance (due to overhanging
wires). When the forks were lowered, the skin of the float was
shredded. Someone used baling wire to tie together the ends of the
chicken wire skin at the junction. Oops.

Cal Poly traded space in the Rose Palace with D.E. Bent and Sons. I
think he retired in about 1978. We supplied him with surplus labor
(mostly for decorating and handling flowers) in trade for floor space
and "borrowing" tools. It was a very professional operation.

One of the funniest things was watching Disney Animation attempt to
build their first animated float. Everyone expected big things from
them due to their experience at Disneyland. As expected, the float
had more moving parts than stationary. Just one problem; Disney ran
on pneumatics instead of hydraulics.

The centerpiece of their design was a rather large globe with a
satellite spinning around it. The globe was bisected at the equator
with a cantilever rod supporting the satellite. It, and other moving
parts, sorta worked. Then, they added the flowers and watered them.
That added lots of weight, which they hadn't expected. The support
rod bent and had to be reinforced. Instead of smoothly orbiting the
planet, the satellite lurched and jerked its way around the globe. The
pneumatics could not overcome the added friction. The pressure just
built up and up until the satellite suddenly lurched free. This was
repeated every minute or so. I vaguely recall that it finally died
about half way through the parade when some hose or fitting finally
broke from the concussions. By then, all the flowers had been
catapulted off anyway.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Locating underground conduit
 

On Oct 15, 1:17*am, Ed wrote:
* *I know this is slightly off topic, *but since I am intending to run
some RF cable in the conduit, *and since there are a lot of intelligent
hams on this group, *I will proceed anyway:

* *Last year at the beginning of construction of a new house I buried
about 50 feet of *3/4" Sched. 40 PVD between the house and a location on
the property perimeter. * Now that I am ready to use it, *I can not
locate the perimeter end.... it is somewhere in about a 10' area, and the
end curves up to probably about a foot underground.

* * The ground is nearly pure sand, and is well landscaped now to the
point that I do not want to randomly dig it up.

* * The end terminated in an elbow curving up and is well duct taped
shut.

* * Can anyone suggest a method or equipment I might use to locate that
far end?

* * Tnx.

* *Ed * K7AAT

I have some pipe that I had run for an outdoor spigot that I never
finished installing. To test a method of finding it I shot some air
into it the other end was pretty easy to find by listening. I could
hear the rush of air and a lot of gurgling. My dog actually found it
in the roses bushes before I did.

Jimmie

Locating underground conduit
 

"JIMMIE" wrote in message
...
On Oct 15, 1:17 am, Ed wrote:
I know this is slightly off topic, but since I am intending to run
some RF cable in the conduit, and since there are a lot of intelligent
hams on this group, I will proceed anyway:

Last year at the beginning of construction of a new house I buried
about 50 feet of 3/4" Sched. 40 PVD between the house and a location on
the property perimeter. Now that I am ready to use it, I can not
locate the perimeter end.... it is somewhere in about a 10' area, and the
end curves up to probably about a foot underground.

The ground is nearly pure sand, and is well landscaped now to the
point that I do not want to randomly dig it up.

The end terminated in an elbow curving up and is well duct taped
shut.

Can anyone suggest a method or equipment I might use to locate that
far end?

Tnx.

Ed K7AAT

I have some pipe that I had run for an outdoor spigot that I never
finished installing. To test a method of finding it I shot some air
into it the other end was pretty easy to find by listening. I could
hear the rush of air and a lot of gurgling. My dog actually found it
in the roses bushes before I did.

Jimmie

Hi Jimmie

That "air" idea wont work, Jeff told me so

Quote Jeff --

"Welcome to rec.radio.amateur.antenna.physics

Ok, let's do the math. Dry sand weighs 100 lb/cubic-foot. There's
about 1 ft of sand above the end of the 3/4" conduit. The weight
action is roughly conical, so the volume of sand involved is (my
guess) about:
100 lbs/ft^3 * 1/3 = 33 lbs of sand.
All that it acting on a 3/4" diameter pipe, with a cross sectional
area of about:
Pi * 0.75" = 2.4 in^2
Therefore, the pressure exerted by the sand is:
33 lbs / 2.4 in^2 = 14 PSI
So, if he can pressurize the pipe to more than 14 PSI, he can lift the
column of sand sufficiently to keep it from dribbling into the pipe.

Of course, it's not that simple. Laminar air flow, pressure gradients
across the conduit, and the effects of the duct tape will ruin my
simplistic guesswork. Worse, the back pressure created by the
immovable column of sand will force some sand particles into the
conduit around the edges with the "reflected" air pressure. In the
middle of the conduit, the air flow is all out of the conduit, but
near the edges, it could easily be the other direction. I'm also
assuming that the sand is a perfect air seal, which it's not. To
prevent all this from happening, the minimum air pressure should be
about twice the 14 PSI, which is easily achievable with an air
compressor, but not a vacuum cleaner.

I'm also trying to imagine how the process will work. I see an air
compressor pumping madly away as the neighbors kids furiously dig
around the resultant sand volcano, as sand rapidly refills the conical
hole. In my never humble opinion, there's no way to prevent sand from
dropping into the conduit if the duct tape seal is broken before
excavating the end of the conduit.

Once the sand is in the conduit, just blowing air through the pipe
isn't going to magically elevate the sand particles 1ft or more in the
air. The air does not have sufficient mass to convey enough momentum
to move the sand particles, much less eject them vertically. For
that, one needs a denser medium, such as water. Shoving a plunger
through might work, but it's equally likely to jam sand particles into
the PVC conduit walls.




--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558"

Jerry KD6JDJ

Locating underground conduit
 

Jerry wrote:
"JIMMIE" wrote in message
...
On Oct 15, 1:17 am, Ed wrote:
I know this is slightly off topic, but since I am intending to run
some RF cable in the conduit, and since there are a lot of intelligent
hams on this group, I will proceed anyway:

Last year at the beginning of construction of a new house I buried
about 50 feet of 3/4" Sched. 40 PVD between the house and a location on
the property perimeter. Now that I am ready to use it, I can not
locate the perimeter end.... it is somewhere in about a 10' area, and the
end curves up to probably about a foot underground.

The ground is nearly pure sand, and is well landscaped now to the
point that I do not want to randomly dig it up.

The end terminated in an elbow curving up and is well duct taped
shut.

Can anyone suggest a method or equipment I might use to locate that
far end?

Tnx.

Ed K7AAT

I have some pipe that I had run for an outdoor spigot that I never
finished installing. To test a method of finding it I shot some air
into it the other end was pretty easy to find by listening. I could
hear the rush of air and a lot of gurgling. My dog actually found it
in the roses bushes before I did.

Jimmie

Hi Jimmie

That "air" idea wont work, Jeff told me so

Quote Jeff --

"Welcome to rec.radio.amateur.antenna.physics

It can work, because what you are trying to do is not to move a lot
of air and sand, but try to make some noise. And you don't have to move
a whole lot of sand to do that. As long as the pipes stay together, some
air will make it out of the open end and make some noise.

- 73 de Mike N3LI -