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vertical antenna loading coil vs toroid
On Fri, 03 Apr 2009 07:34:20 -0500, Cecil Moore
wrote: Richard Clark wrote: One inductance value (however it is wound) is not equivalent everywhere - Nobody said one inductance value is equivalent everywhere. Nobody is not very many people which should make this a short list. But I don't see any names - strange. In fact, just the opposite is true. which must mean Nobody said one inductance value is NOT equivalent everywhere. or, perhaps: EVERYBODY said one inductance value is equivalent everywhere. or, perhaps: EVERYBODY said one inductance value is NOT equivalent everywhere. or, perhaps: Nobody said one inductance value is equivalent NO where. or, perhaps: Nobody said NO inductance value is equivalent everywhere. or, perhaps: EVERBODY said NO inductance value is equivalent NO where. .... proving your above premise to be false. Which apparently nobody (somebody, everbody?) said. The power of persuasion (Cecil's Degenerative form of the Sub-optimal Hypothesis of Information Transformation) at its inventive best to be able to wrestle two contradictory claims together and prove them both true and false simultaneously! Cecil must have been posed some very difficult advice as a little nipper: "Nobody jumped off the roof because everone did - wouldn't you?" 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
vertical antenna loading coil vs toroid
On Apr 3, 8:22*am, Cecil Moore wrote:
wrote: Did you ever try to model a resonator where the coil required is actually longer than the insulator, so that the vertical part of the resonator is actually inside the coil , ... Never modeled it but have seen its effects during 75m mobile shootouts. One fellow had a hamstick with the stinger bottom extending down into the hamstick loading coil. It was a very lossy condition which improved when he hack-sawed the excess stinger off. Do you have EZNEC? If so, I can modify a helical loading coil to extend the stinger into the middle of the coil and send the file to you. Conductors within the loading coil field lower the effective coil Q. However, I have had good luck with a 1.25" fiberglass pipe running through the center of the coil providing mechanical support. Perhaps you could consider swapping your insulator for a piece of fiberglass pipe or rod. -- 73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, *http://www.w5dxp.com I have the top portion of the antenna put togather, ready to go up in the next couple of days depending on wx, after I got it put together I realized that when I got the toroids I was only concerned about 40 & 80M, and then wanted 160M, should these be some what acceptable on 160M with 100watts Their red on the inner, outer, and top, the bottom is some color of a green or brown. It measures very close to 26mm outside,15mm inside and 10mm high. No markings what soever. Any thoughts on if it should work or not. thanks 73, brett |
vertical antenna loading coil vs toroid
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vertical antenna loading coil vs toroid
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vertical antenna loading coil vs toroid
On Apr 3, 9:15*pm, Cecil Moore wrote:
wrote: Their red on the inner, outer, and top, the bottom is some color of a green or brown. Sorry, I once knew those color codes but I have forgotten them over the last 30 years. Perhaps someone else remembers. -- 73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, *http://www.w5dxp.com Thanks again I'll do a search on net for the color codes, I have some with some # on them but the spec on them are only good for 500khz or well below HF freq. Since some had numbers and are of different color i didn't know they had color code, I have some red , blue, yellow and 1 green, I'l look for the color code thanks. 73 brett |
vertical antenna loading coil vs toroid
On Apr 3, 10:30*pm, wrote:
wrote: On Apr 3, 8:22*am, Cecil Moore wrote: wrote: Did you ever try to model a resonator where the coil required is actually longer than the insulator, so that the vertical part of the resonator is actually inside the coil , ... Never modeled it but have seen its effects during 75m mobile shootouts. One fellow had a hamstick with the stinger bottom extending down into the hamstick loading coil. It was a very lossy condition which improved when he hack-sawed the excess stinger off. Do you have EZNEC? If so, I can modify a helical loading coil to extend the stinger into the middle of the coil and send the file to you. Conductors within the loading coil field lower the effective coil Q. However, I have had good luck with a 1.25" fiberglass pipe running through the center of the coil providing mechanical support. Perhaps you could consider swapping your insulator for a piece of fiberglass pipe or rod. -- 73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, *http://www.w5dxp.com I have the top portion of the antenna put togather, ready to go up in the next couple of days depending on wx, after I got it put together I realized that when I got the toroids I was only concerned about 40 & 80M, and then wanted 160M, should these be some what acceptable on 160M with 100watts *Their red on the inner, outer, and top, the bottom is some color of a green or brown. It measures very close to 26mm outside,15mm inside and 10mm high. No markings what soever. Any thoughts on if it should work or not. thanks 73, brett They aren't usually color coded on the "bottom". If they are iron-powder, red is material #2, which is good for .5 Mhz to 10 Mhz. The size seems closest to T-106, which in inches is 1.060 *X 0.570 X 0.437. You can find all the specs, charts, etc. at: https://www.amidoncorp.com/ -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. Thanks for the link to the info on the color codes , I have the red one in the antenna right now ,I was going to test soon, According to the document on the link, the red toroid spec is 2-30mhz but blue toroid spec is .5-5mhz. The blue one I have is close to 25mmOD 11mmID 10mmHigh. I'll redo the blue toroid for the inductance I need before I waste my time with the red one Thanks again 73,brett |
vertical antenna loading coil vs toroid
wrote:
On Apr 3, 10:30Â*pm, wrote: wrote: On Apr 3, 8:22Â*am, Cecil Moore wrote: wrote: Did you ever try to model a resonator where the coil required is actually longer than the insulator, so that the vertical part of the resonator is actually inside the coil , ... Never modeled it but have seen its effects during 75m mobile shootouts. One fellow had a hamstick with the stinger bottom extending down into the hamstick loading coil. It was a very lossy condition which improved when he hack-sawed the excess stinger off. Do you have EZNEC? If so, I can modify a helical loading coil to extend the stinger into the middle of the coil and send the file to you. Conductors within the loading coil field lower the effective coil Q. However, I have had good luck with a 1.25" fiberglass pipe running through the center of the coil providing mechanical support. Perhaps you could consider swapping your insulator for a piece of fiberglass pipe or rod. -- 73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, Â*http://www.w5dxp.com I have the top portion of the antenna put togather, ready to go up in the next couple of days depending on wx, after I got it put together I realized that when I got the toroids I was only concerned about 40 & 80M, and then wanted 160M, should these be some what acceptable on 160M with 100watts Â*Their red on the inner, outer, and top, the bottom is some color of a green or brown. It measures very close to 26mm outside,15mm inside and 10mm high. No markings what soever. Any thoughts on if it should work or not. thanks 73, brett They aren't usually color coded on the "bottom". If they are iron-powder, red is material #2, which is good for .5 Mhz to 10 Mhz. The size seems closest to T-106, which in inches is 1.060 Â*X 0.570 X 0.437. You can find all the specs, charts, etc. at: https://www.amidoncorp.com/ -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. Thanks for the link to the info on the color codes , I have the red one in the antenna right now ,I was going to test soon, According to the document on the link, the red toroid spec is 2-30mhz but blue toroid spec is .5-5mhz. The blue one I have is close to 25mmOD 11mmID 10mmHigh. I'll redo the blue toroid for the inductance I need before I waste my time with the red one Thanks again 73,brett Yeah, the numbers I quoted are from some old data sheets I have for some torroids I have. For whatever reason, some of the numbers are different on their web site. I have no clue if that's because the product changed over the years or the old sheets were wrong. YMMV. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
vertical antenna loading coil vs toroid
On Apr 4, 12:15*am, wrote:
wrote: On Apr 3, 10:30*pm, wrote: wrote: On Apr 3, 8:22*am, Cecil Moore wrote: wrote: Did you ever try to model a resonator where the coil required is actually longer than the insulator, so that the vertical part of the resonator is actually inside the coil , ... Never modeled it but have seen its effects during 75m mobile shootouts. One fellow had a hamstick with the stinger bottom extending down into the hamstick loading coil. It was a very lossy condition which improved when he hack-sawed the excess stinger off. Do you have EZNEC? If so, I can modify a helical loading coil to extend the stinger into the middle of the coil and send the file to you. Conductors within the loading coil field lower the effective coil Q. However, I have had good luck with a 1.25" fiberglass pipe running through the center of the coil providing mechanical support. Perhaps you could consider swapping your insulator for a piece of fiberglass pipe or rod. -- 73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, *http://www.w5dxp.com I have the top portion of the antenna put togather, ready to go up in the next couple of days depending on wx, after I got it put together I realized that when I got the toroids I was only concerned about 40 & 80M, and then wanted 160M, should these be some what acceptable on 160M with 100watts *Their red on the inner, outer, and top, the bottom is some color of a green or brown. It measures very close to 26mm outside,15mm inside and 10mm high. No markings what soever. Any thoughts on if it should work or not. thanks 73, brett They aren't usually color coded on the "bottom". If they are iron-powder, red is material #2, which is good for .5 Mhz to 10 Mhz. The size seems closest to T-106, which in inches is 1.060 *X 0.570 X 0.437. You can find all the specs, charts, etc. at: https://www.amidoncorp.com/ -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. Thanks for the link to the info on the color codes , I have the red one in the antenna right now ,I was going to test soon, According to the document on the link, the red toroid spec is 2-30mhz but blue toroid spec is .5-5mhz. The blue one I have is close to 25mmOD * 11mmID * 10mmHigh. I'll redo the blue toroid for the inductance I need before I waste my time with the red one Thanks again 73,brett Yeah, the numbers I quoted are from some old data sheets I have for some torroids I have. For whatever reason, some of the numbers are different on their web site. I have no clue if that's because the product changed over the years or the old sheets were wrong. YMMV. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. I removed the red toroid from the vertical and replaced it with a blue one, I'm hoping to get this thing up today to see how it performs. I'll do some tests on it for a couple of weeks then maybe try the red toroid anyway to see if it too will work.From the specs I found red being 2-30mhz and blue 0.5-5mhz it seems obvious that the blue one is the better choice for 160 but not a good choice for 40M. And vice versa the red one better for 40 but a good choice for 160. I will to to find out more info on color code and material type, I also have a couple of type 43 binocular core very small black ones, that a fellow ham gave me, they measure about 15mm long X 11mm wide X 7mm thick the two holes are about 7mm center to center and 4mm in diameter. I used these on rx antennas, one wound 9:1 for an EWE and another 4:1 for loop, would these possibly work for tx with 100w or less on 160-40M They seem to work very well on rx for that freq range. Thanks again, 73, brett |
vertical antenna loading coil vs toroid
wrote:
On Apr 4, 12:15Â*am, wrote: wrote: On Apr 3, 10:30Â*pm, wrote: wrote: On Apr 3, 8:22Â*am, Cecil Moore wrote: wrote: Did you ever try to model a resonator where the coil required is actually longer than the insulator, so that the vertical part of the resonator is actually inside the coil , ... Never modeled it but have seen its effects during 75m mobile shootouts. One fellow had a hamstick with the stinger bottom extending down into the hamstick loading coil. It was a very lossy condition which improved when he hack-sawed the excess stinger off. Do you have EZNEC? If so, I can modify a helical loading coil to extend the stinger into the middle of the coil and send the file to you. Conductors within the loading coil field lower the effective coil Q. However, I have had good luck with a 1.25" fiberglass pipe running through the center of the coil providing mechanical support. Perhaps you could consider swapping your insulator for a piece of fiberglass pipe or rod. -- 73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, Â*http://www.w5dxp.com I have the top portion of the antenna put togather, ready to go up in the next couple of days depending on wx, after I got it put together I realized that when I got the toroids I was only concerned about 40 & 80M, and then wanted 160M, should these be some what acceptable on 160M with 100watts Â*Their red on the inner, outer, and top, the bottom is some color of a green or brown. It measures very close to 26mm outside,15mm inside and 10mm high. No markings what soever. Any thoughts on if it should work or not. thanks 73, brett They aren't usually color coded on the "bottom". If they are iron-powder, red is material #2, which is good for .5 Mhz to 10 Mhz. The size seems closest to T-106, which in inches is 1.060 Â*X 0.570 X 0.437. You can find all the specs, charts, etc. at: https://www.amidoncorp.com/ -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. Thanks for the link to the info on the color codes , I have the red one in the antenna right now ,I was going to test soon, According to the document on the link, the red toroid spec is 2-30mhz but blue toroid spec is .5-5mhz. The blue one I have is close to 25mmOD Â* 11mmID Â* 10mmHigh. I'll redo the blue toroid for the inductance I need before I waste my time with the red one Thanks again 73,brett Yeah, the numbers I quoted are from some old data sheets I have for some torroids I have. For whatever reason, some of the numbers are different on their web site. I have no clue if that's because the product changed over the years or the old sheets were wrong. YMMV. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. I removed the red toroid from the vertical and replaced it with a blue one, I'm hoping to get this thing up today to see how it performs. I'll do some tests on it for a couple of weeks then maybe try the red toroid anyway to see if it too will work.From the specs I found red being 2-30mhz and blue 0.5-5mhz it seems obvious that the blue one is the better choice for 160 but not a good choice for 40M. And vice versa the red one better for 40 but a good choice for 160. I will to to find out more info on color code and material type, I also have a couple of type 43 binocular core very small black ones, that a fellow ham gave me, they measure about 15mm long X 11mm wide X 7mm thick the two holes are about 7mm center to center and 4mm in diameter. I used these on rx antennas, one wound 9:1 for an EWE and another 4:1 for loop, would these possibly work for tx with 100w or less on 160-40M They seem to work very well on rx for that freq range. Thanks again, 73, brett My gut feel is either core will "work" and that unless you have access to some lab grade equipment, you won't see any performance difference between the two. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
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