On Fri, 03 Apr 2009 07:34:20 -0500, Cecil Moore
wrote:

Richard Clark wrote:
One
inductance value (however it is wound) is not equivalent everywhere -

Nobody said one inductance value is equivalent everywhere.
Nobody is not very many people which should make this a short list.
But I don't see any names - strange.
In fact, just the opposite is true.
which must mean
Nobody said one inductance value is NOT equivalent everywhere.
or, perhaps:
EVERYBODY said one inductance value is equivalent everywhere.
or, perhaps:
EVERYBODY said one inductance value is NOT equivalent everywhere.
or, perhaps:
Nobody said one inductance value is equivalent NO where.
or, perhaps:
Nobody said NO inductance value is equivalent everywhere.
or, perhaps:
EVERBODY said NO inductance value is equivalent NO where.
....
proving your above premise to be false.
Which apparently nobody (somebody, everbody?) said.

The power of persuasion (Cecil's Degenerative form of the Sub-optimal
Hypothesis of Information Transformation) at its inventive best to be
able to wrestle two contradictory claims together and prove them both
true and false simultaneously!

Cecil must have been posed some very difficult advice as a little
nipper:
"Nobody jumped off the roof because everone did - wouldn't you?"

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

On Apr 3, 8:22*am, Cecil Moore wrote:
wrote:
Did you ever try to model a resonator where the coil required is
actually longer than the insulator, so that the vertical part of the
resonator is actually inside the coil , ...

Never modeled it but have seen its effects during
75m mobile shootouts. One fellow had a hamstick
with the stinger bottom extending down into the
hamstick loading coil. It was a very lossy
condition which improved when he hack-sawed the
excess stinger off.

Do you have EZNEC? If so, I can modify a helical
loading coil to extend the stinger into the middle
of the coil and send the file to you.

Conductors within the loading coil field lower
the effective coil Q. However, I have had good
luck with a 1.25" fiberglass pipe running through
the center of the coil providing mechanical
support. Perhaps you could consider swapping your
insulator for a piece of fiberglass pipe or rod.
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, *http://www.w5dxp.com

I have the top portion of the antenna put togather, ready to go up in
the next couple of days depending on wx, after I got it put together I
realized that when I got the toroids I was only concerned about 40 &
80M, and then wanted 160M, should these be some what acceptable on
160M with 100watts Their red on the inner, outer, and top, the bottom
is some color of a green or brown. It measures very close to 26mm
outside,15mm inside and 10mm high. No markings what soever. Any
thoughts on if it should work or not. thanks 73, brett

On Fri, 3 Apr 2009 10:47:38 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

The theory should have answered your question before hand. *

Thanks very much for the information you provided to my posting.
The theory to the question was answered

Hi Brett,

Matching theories to questions is a favorite past time here.

Knowing me I will probably ask many more questions

Just asking the same question again will lead to many more
theories....

You haven't been entertained until you get the gaussian vectorized
version of the equilibrated coil constant of capacitive electrical
length.

I will sit back to await Cecil's indignant demand that NO ONE
theorized that either; and then NO ONE will spit rhetorically in his
eye saying that they didn't but they meant too. ;-)

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

wrote:
Their red on the inner, outer, and top, the bottom
is some color of a green or brown.

Sorry, I once knew those color codes but I have
forgotten them over the last 30 years. Perhaps
someone else remembers.
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, http://www.w5dxp.com

wrote:
On Apr 3, 8:22Â*am, Cecil Moore wrote:
wrote:
Did you ever try to model a resonator where the coil required is
actually longer than the insulator, so that the vertical part of the
resonator is actually inside the coil , ...

Never modeled it but have seen its effects during
75m mobile shootouts. One fellow had a hamstick
with the stinger bottom extending down into the
hamstick loading coil. It was a very lossy
condition which improved when he hack-sawed the
excess stinger off.

Do you have EZNEC? If so, I can modify a helical
loading coil to extend the stinger into the middle
of the coil and send the file to you.

Conductors within the loading coil field lower
the effective coil Q. However, I have had good
luck with a 1.25" fiberglass pipe running through
the center of the coil providing mechanical
support. Perhaps you could consider swapping your
insulator for a piece of fiberglass pipe or rod.
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, Â*http://www.w5dxp.com

I have the top portion of the antenna put togather, ready to go up in
the next couple of days depending on wx, after I got it put together I
realized that when I got the toroids I was only concerned about 40 &
80M, and then wanted 160M, should these be some what acceptable on
160M with 100watts Their red on the inner, outer, and top, the bottom
is some color of a green or brown. It measures very close to 26mm
outside,15mm inside and 10mm high. No markings what soever. Any
thoughts on if it should work or not. thanks 73, brett

They aren't usually color coded on the "bottom".

If they are iron-powder, red is material #2, which is good for .5 Mhz
to 10 Mhz.

The size seems closest to T-106, which in inches is 1.060 X 0.570 X 0.437.

You can find all the specs, charts, etc. at:

https://www.amidoncorp.com/


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

On Apr 3, 9:15*pm, Cecil Moore wrote:
wrote:
Their red on the inner, outer, and top, the bottom
is some color of a green or brown.

Sorry, I once knew those color codes but I have
forgotten them over the last 30 years. Perhaps
someone else remembers.
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, *http://www.w5dxp.com

Thanks again I'll do a search on net for the color codes, I have some
with some # on them but the spec on them are only good for 500khz or
well below HF freq. Since some had numbers and are of different color
i didn't know they had color code, I have some red , blue, yellow and
1 green, I'l look for the color code thanks. 73 brett

On Apr 3, 10:30*pm, wrote:
wrote:
On Apr 3, 8:22*am, Cecil Moore wrote:
wrote:
Did you ever try to model a resonator where the coil required is
actually longer than the insulator, so that the vertical part of the
resonator is actually inside the coil , ...

Never modeled it but have seen its effects during
75m mobile shootouts. One fellow had a hamstick
with the stinger bottom extending down into the
hamstick loading coil. It was a very lossy
condition which improved when he hack-sawed the
excess stinger off.

Do you have EZNEC? If so, I can modify a helical
loading coil to extend the stinger into the middle
of the coil and send the file to you.

Conductors within the loading coil field lower
the effective coil Q. However, I have had good
luck with a 1.25" fiberglass pipe running through
the center of the coil providing mechanical
support. Perhaps you could consider swapping your
insulator for a piece of fiberglass pipe or rod.
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, *http://www.w5dxp.com

I have the top portion of the antenna put togather, ready to go up in
the next couple of days depending on wx, after I got it put together I
realized that when I got the toroids I was only concerned about 40 &
80M, and then wanted 160M, should these be some what acceptable on
160M with 100watts *Their red on the inner, outer, and top, the bottom
is some color of a green or brown. It measures very close to 26mm
outside,15mm inside and 10mm high. No markings what soever. Any
thoughts on if it should work or not. thanks 73, brett

They aren't usually color coded on the "bottom".

If they are iron-powder, red is material #2, which is good for .5 Mhz
to 10 Mhz.

The size seems closest to T-106, which in inches is 1.060 *X 0.570 X 0.437.

You can find all the specs, charts, etc. at:

https://www.amidoncorp.com/

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Thanks for the link to the info on the color codes , I have the red
one in the antenna right now ,I was going to test soon, According to
the document on the link, the red toroid spec is 2-30mhz but blue
toroid spec is .5-5mhz.
The blue one I have is close to 25mmOD 11mmID 10mmHigh. I'll redo
the blue toroid for the inductance I need before I waste my time with
the red one Thanks again 73,brett

wrote:
On Apr 3, 10:30Â*pm, wrote:
wrote:
On Apr 3, 8:22Â*am, Cecil Moore wrote:
wrote:
Did you ever try to model a resonator where the coil required is
actually longer than the insulator, so that the vertical part of the
resonator is actually inside the coil , ...

Never modeled it but have seen its effects during
75m mobile shootouts. One fellow had a hamstick
with the stinger bottom extending down into the
hamstick loading coil. It was a very lossy
condition which improved when he hack-sawed the
excess stinger off.

Do you have EZNEC? If so, I can modify a helical
loading coil to extend the stinger into the middle
of the coil and send the file to you.

Conductors within the loading coil field lower
the effective coil Q. However, I have had good
luck with a 1.25" fiberglass pipe running through
the center of the coil providing mechanical
support. Perhaps you could consider swapping your
insulator for a piece of fiberglass pipe or rod.
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, Â*http://www.w5dxp.com

I have the top portion of the antenna put togather, ready to go up in
the next couple of days depending on wx, after I got it put together I
realized that when I got the toroids I was only concerned about 40 &
80M, and then wanted 160M, should these be some what acceptable on
160M with 100watts Â*Their red on the inner, outer, and top, the bottom
is some color of a green or brown. It measures very close to 26mm
outside,15mm inside and 10mm high. No markings what soever. Any
thoughts on if it should work or not. thanks 73, brett

They aren't usually color coded on the "bottom".

If they are iron-powder, red is material #2, which is good for .5 Mhz
to 10 Mhz.

The size seems closest to T-106, which in inches is 1.060 Â*X 0.570 X 0.437.

You can find all the specs, charts, etc. at:

https://www.amidoncorp.com/

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Thanks for the link to the info on the color codes , I have the red
one in the antenna right now ,I was going to test soon, According to
the document on the link, the red toroid spec is 2-30mhz but blue
toroid spec is .5-5mhz.
The blue one I have is close to 25mmOD 11mmID 10mmHigh. I'll redo
the blue toroid for the inductance I need before I waste my time with
the red one Thanks again 73,brett

Yeah, the numbers I quoted are from some old data sheets I have for
some torroids I have.

For whatever reason, some of the numbers are different on their web
site.

I have no clue if that's because the product changed over the years
or the old sheets were wrong.

YMMV.



--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

On Apr 4, 12:15*am, wrote:
wrote:
On Apr 3, 10:30*pm, wrote:
wrote:
On Apr 3, 8:22*am, Cecil Moore wrote:
wrote:
Did you ever try to model a resonator where the coil required is
actually longer than the insulator, so that the vertical part of the
resonator is actually inside the coil , ...

Never modeled it but have seen its effects during
75m mobile shootouts. One fellow had a hamstick
with the stinger bottom extending down into the
hamstick loading coil. It was a very lossy
condition which improved when he hack-sawed the
excess stinger off.

Do you have EZNEC? If so, I can modify a helical
loading coil to extend the stinger into the middle
of the coil and send the file to you.

Conductors within the loading coil field lower
the effective coil Q. However, I have had good
luck with a 1.25" fiberglass pipe running through
the center of the coil providing mechanical
support. Perhaps you could consider swapping your
insulator for a piece of fiberglass pipe or rod.
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, *http://www.w5dxp.com

I have the top portion of the antenna put togather, ready to go up in
the next couple of days depending on wx, after I got it put together I
realized that when I got the toroids I was only concerned about 40 &
80M, and then wanted 160M, should these be some what acceptable on
160M with 100watts *Their red on the inner, outer, and top, the bottom
is some color of a green or brown. It measures very close to 26mm
outside,15mm inside and 10mm high. No markings what soever. Any
thoughts on if it should work or not. thanks 73, brett

They aren't usually color coded on the "bottom".

If they are iron-powder, red is material #2, which is good for .5 Mhz
to 10 Mhz.

The size seems closest to T-106, which in inches is 1.060 *X 0.570 X 0.437.

You can find all the specs, charts, etc. at:

https://www.amidoncorp.com/

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Thanks for the link to the info on the color codes , I have the red
one in the antenna right now ,I was going to test soon, According to
the document on the link, the red toroid spec is 2-30mhz but blue
toroid spec is .5-5mhz.
The blue one I have is close to 25mmOD * 11mmID * 10mmHigh. I'll redo
the blue toroid for the inductance I need before I waste my time with
the red one Thanks again 73,brett

Yeah, the numbers I quoted are from some old data sheets I have for
some torroids I have.

For whatever reason, some of the numbers are different on their web
site.

I have no clue if that's because the product changed over the years
or the old sheets were wrong.

YMMV.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

I removed the red toroid from the vertical and replaced it with a blue
one, I'm hoping to get this thing up today to see how it performs.
I'll do some tests on it for a couple of weeks then maybe try the red
toroid anyway to see if it too will work.From the specs I found red
being 2-30mhz and blue 0.5-5mhz it seems obvious that the blue one is
the better choice for 160 but not a good choice for 40M. And vice
versa the red one better for 40 but a good choice for 160. I will to
to find out more info on color code and material type, I also have a
couple of type 43 binocular core very small black ones, that a fellow
ham gave me, they measure about 15mm long X 11mm wide X 7mm thick the
two holes are about 7mm center to center and 4mm in diameter. I used
these on rx antennas, one wound 9:1 for an EWE and another 4:1 for
loop, would these possibly work for tx with 100w or less on 160-40M
They seem to work very well on rx for that freq range. Thanks again,
73, brett

wrote:
On Apr 4, 12:15Â*am, wrote:
wrote:
On Apr 3, 10:30Â*pm, wrote:
wrote:
On Apr 3, 8:22Â*am, Cecil Moore wrote:
wrote:
Did you ever try to model a resonator where the coil required is
actually longer than the insulator, so that the vertical part of the
resonator is actually inside the coil , ...

Never modeled it but have seen its effects during
75m mobile shootouts. One fellow had a hamstick
with the stinger bottom extending down into the
hamstick loading coil. It was a very lossy
condition which improved when he hack-sawed the
excess stinger off.

Do you have EZNEC? If so, I can modify a helical
loading coil to extend the stinger into the middle
of the coil and send the file to you.

Conductors within the loading coil field lower
the effective coil Q. However, I have had good
luck with a 1.25" fiberglass pipe running through
the center of the coil providing mechanical
support. Perhaps you could consider swapping your
insulator for a piece of fiberglass pipe or rod.
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, Â*http://www.w5dxp.com

I have the top portion of the antenna put togather, ready to go up in
the next couple of days depending on wx, after I got it put together I
realized that when I got the toroids I was only concerned about 40 &
80M, and then wanted 160M, should these be some what acceptable on
160M with 100watts Â*Their red on the inner, outer, and top, the bottom
is some color of a green or brown. It measures very close to 26mm
outside,15mm inside and 10mm high. No markings what soever. Any
thoughts on if it should work or not. thanks 73, brett

They aren't usually color coded on the "bottom".

If they are iron-powder, red is material #2, which is good for .5 Mhz
to 10 Mhz.

The size seems closest to T-106, which in inches is 1.060 Â*X 0.570 X 0.437.

You can find all the specs, charts, etc. at:

https://www.amidoncorp.com/

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Thanks for the link to the info on the color codes , I have the red
one in the antenna right now ,I was going to test soon, According to
the document on the link, the red toroid spec is 2-30mhz but blue
toroid spec is .5-5mhz.
The blue one I have is close to 25mmOD Â* 11mmID Â* 10mmHigh. I'll redo
the blue toroid for the inductance I need before I waste my time with
the red one Thanks again 73,brett

Yeah, the numbers I quoted are from some old data sheets I have for
some torroids I have.

For whatever reason, some of the numbers are different on their web
site.

I have no clue if that's because the product changed over the years
or the old sheets were wrong.

YMMV.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

I removed the red toroid from the vertical and replaced it with a blue
one, I'm hoping to get this thing up today to see how it performs.
I'll do some tests on it for a couple of weeks then maybe try the red
toroid anyway to see if it too will work.From the specs I found red
being 2-30mhz and blue 0.5-5mhz it seems obvious that the blue one is
the better choice for 160 but not a good choice for 40M. And vice
versa the red one better for 40 but a good choice for 160. I will to
to find out more info on color code and material type, I also have a
couple of type 43 binocular core very small black ones, that a fellow
ham gave me, they measure about 15mm long X 11mm wide X 7mm thick the
two holes are about 7mm center to center and 4mm in diameter. I used
these on rx antennas, one wound 9:1 for an EWE and another 4:1 for
loop, would these possibly work for tx with 100w or less on 160-40M
They seem to work very well on rx for that freq range. Thanks again,
73, brett

My gut feel is either core will "work" and that unless you have access
to some lab grade equipment, you won't see any performance difference
between the two.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.