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New antenna design
On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 21:19:32 -0700, "Sal M. Onella"
wrote: I ask because the phrase "military patent attorney" produced no results at Google. The phrase "patent attorney for the military " produces exactly one result: your post using the phrase. Last time I checked, we don't have a single "military". We have an Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, and some other organizations, all under the Dept of Defense. Each have their own policies for handling patents. For example: Office of the Judge Advocate General Department of the Army Intellectual Property Office Regulatory Law and Intellectual Property Division 901 North Stuart Street, Arlington, VA 22203-1837. Basically a patent attorney. It's possible that Art talked to one of them. www.army.mil/USAPA/epubs/pdf/p27_11.pdf Looks old, but interesting. I ask because the military doesn't buy from individuals. It buys from companies. True. However all the branches will license patents from individuals. If they want something manufactured by a 3rd party, and they need a patent, they will arrange for licensing (or confiscation in case of need or secrecy). I don't wanna get into technology transfers and royalties. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
New antenna design
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 21:19:32 -0700, "Sal M. Onella" wrote: I ask because the phrase "military patent attorney" produced no results at Google. The phrase "patent attorney for the military " produces exactly one result: your post using the phrase. Last time I checked, we don't have a single "military". We have an Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, and some other organizations, all under the Dept of Defense. Each have their own policies for handling patents. For example: Office of the Judge Advocate General Department of the Army Intellectual Property Office Regulatory Law and Intellectual Property Division 901 North Stuart Street, Arlington, VA 22203-1837. Basically a patent attorney. It's possible that Art talked to one of them. Not unless it was at a bar and Art was buying. A military attorney is not going to be talking to a civilian off the street. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
New antenna design
Ralph E Lindberg wrote:
I can't think of a single patent where I work has applied for that was classified (hint, US Navy R&E). I strongly doubt that anyone would seek any patent that had classified details. In industry, one uses patents and trade secrets to protect intelectual property. Patents have to be written in such a way that someone "skilled in the art" can duplicate the idea. I'm not sure of the current state of US patent law, but in general it was intended that someone would read a patent, build the device and improve it. The improvement would be a deriviative work or it may be something new. In either case, the original work, or a derivative work would be the exclusive property of the owner of the patent for a length of time, now 20 years from first publication or date of filing (whichever is earlier) in the US, and 21 years in the rest of the world. Trade secrets are different, they rely on things that have never been revealed. For example, the formula for WD-40, Coka Cola, or KFC breading. KFC is an interesting combination, the process was patented, the formula was not. So you can duplicate KFC chicken at home and now that the patent has run out in your restaurant in theory, but in practice, you can't because you don't know for sure what the ingredients and their proportions are in the breading. There quite simply is no need to seek a patent with classified details. It's similar to a trade secret, but instead of contracts and ethics protecting it, the secrecy of it is protected by law. There is also a law going back to the time of Lincoln administration about developing things under government contract, patenting them and then dedicating the patent to the people of the US. There is a big tax advantage, if it interests you, look up the details. As far as radios are concerned, one could have patented a transformer consisting of a toriodal core of powdered iron and other materials (aka ferite) without revealing the other materials. If that had been a "secret" invention, then others could duplicate the device but without the formula for the exact compostition of the core, no one would get the results you did. That's a two edged sword, they may be better at it. :-) Note that this is just an example, I really have no idea of who invented the toroid transformer. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM |
New antenna design
On Aug 31, 9:30*am, wrote:
Ralph E Lindberg wrote: In article , wrote: Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 21:19:32 -0700, "Sal M. Onella" wrote: I ask because the phrase "military patent attorney" produced no results at Google. *The phrase "patent attorney for the military " produces exactly one result: *your post using the phrase. Last time I checked, we don't have a single "military". *We have an Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, and some other organizations, all under the Dept of Defense. *Each have their own policies for handling patents. *For example: *Office of the Judge Advocate General *Department of the Army *Intellectual Property Office *Regulatory Law and Intellectual Property Division *901 North Stuart *Street, Arlington, VA 22203-1837. Basically a patent attorney. *It's possible that Art talked to one of them. Not unless it was at a bar and Art was buying. A military attorney is not going to be talking to a civilian off the street. I know the one where I work does talk with an employees about a personal patent. But not help/work with the actually application To be expected and employees aren't coming in off the street. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. Many Universities have near to them a quasi military funded work group that employ some of the graduates of Universities especially in the computer area. The funding by the military is for different projects that they have. These units are monitored by patent personnel a couple of times a year where information is gathered for patent potential.Usually they do mundane computer work but there are exceptions and there is some turn over as the graduates leave for new found jobs. There are at least two such units that are in driving distance from me that I know of and there may be more as there are many Universities close to me. I never said I consulted him or asked for assistance. In these sort of discussions in this group small things grow so large that they have a life of their own that often stray from the truth. |
New antenna design
On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 05:45:06 -0700, Ralph E Lindberg
wrote: In article , Jeff Liebermann wrote: As for your difficulties with the USPTO, I have no idea what you're talking about. If you need help obtaining a patent, the very last place I would ask is the military. All their patents tend to become classified, even if they're trivial. I can't think of a single patent where I work has applied for that was classified (hint, US Navy R&E). I strongly doubt that anyone would seek any patent that had classified details. I beg to differ. There are over 4000 classified patents, 88 of which are by the US Navy: http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/invention/stats.html (Note the classification of patents of private inventors). In FY08, the Navy apparently applied for 8 classified patents. Obvious, I have no clue what they were for. Mo http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/documents/appxr_5_1.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention_Secrecy_Act Drivel: I sorta blundered across this one. The patent is fully disclosed, but the title is "classified": http://www.google.com/patents?id=kG-oAAAAEBAJ&dq=2008/0047450 Oops. Unless your patent has some obvious military significance, Or has some impact on any military related industrial application Some horror stories where key commercial technologies somehow get classified. From 2002: http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/vesprman.htm "As a former Patent Examiner, I can tell you that the number of 'secretized' patents in the vault at the Patent Office (Park 5 Bldg.) is closer to 4000 or more. They [applicants] never receive a patent number, and the inventor is rarely, if ever, compensated by the government for use of the invention." -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
New antenna design
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/vesprman.htm "As a former Patent Examiner, I can tell you that the number of 'secretized' patents in the vault at the Patent Office (Park 5 Bldg.) is closer to 4000 or more. They [applicants] never receive a patent number, and the inventor is rarely, if ever, compensated by the government for use of the invention." That's an interesting question. Normally an inventor is not compensated for the use of their invention, as it were, by an employer. In most cases the employer owns the research it funded and the results (including patents) of that research. Quite often the payment for a patent was one dollar. The late father of a late friend of mine was one of the inventors on 18 patents filed by RCA, 9 of which he was the principal inventor. From what I remember he received besides his regular salary, an offical payment of $1 for the rights to each of them, and a nice little plaque for his wall. In some exceptional cases, usually where the inventor is a noted expert in the field before employment they negotiated different terms. There were also independent inventors who filed "invention disclosures" and then attempted to sell the invention to investors or companies in the field. This has pretty much disapeared in the US as people now file provisional patent applications and market those. The problem of this system is that abandoned provisional patent applications become public domain when they expire (one year after first publication or filing, whichever is earlier) and invention disclosures, never being publicised could go on forever. The other question I have is if a patent is filled and never publicised, how does one know it exists? If someone else invents the idea (actually very common) and files a patent are they refused? Are they sued for infringment? Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM |
New antenna design
On Aug 31, 12:09*pm, "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
wrote: Jeff Liebermann wrote: http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/vesprman.htm * "As a former Patent Examiner, I can tell you that the number * of 'secretized' patents in the vault at the Patent Office * (Park 5 Bldg.) is closer to 4000 or more. They [applicants] * never receive a patent number, and the inventor is rarely, * if ever, compensated by the government for use of the * invention." That's an interesting question. Normally an inventor is not compensated for the use of their invention, as it were, by an employer. In most cases the employer owns the research it funded and the results (including patents) of that research. Quite often the payment for a patent was one dollar. The late father of a late friend of mine was one of the inventors on 18 patents filed by RCA, 9 of which he was the principal inventor. From what I remember he received besides his regular salary, an offical payment of $1 for the rights to each of them, and a nice little plaque for his wall. In some exceptional cases, usually where the inventor is a noted expert in the field before employment they negotiated different terms. There were also independent inventors who filed "invention disclosures" and then attempted to sell the invention to investors or companies in the field. This has pretty much disapeared in the US as people now file provisional patent applications and market those. The problem of this system is that abandoned provisional patent applications become public domain when they expire (one year after first publication or filing, whichever is earlier) and invention disclosures, never being publicised could go on forever. The other question I have is if a patent is filled and never publicised, how does one know it exists? If someone else invents the idea (actually very common) and files a patent are they refused? Are they sued for infringment? Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel *N3OWJ/4X1GM Wow ! You are way out of date with respect to PTO procedures on so many things. The main thing is patents have stopped going on for ever. The primary change you have that affects patents today is that patent request are pre printed for the public before they ever reach an examiner. If I understand correctly not receiving a patent leaves your request as a free for all in terms of use. The courts have now put more power in the examiners hands and are less interested in cases challenging the aproved claims. For your interest antennas have come to the fore because Chip has sued many cell phone manufacturers for knowingly using Fractal patents. It will be interesting to see how the courts handle this in the light of the many patent changes. You are now seeing more generic drugs over the counter as drug patents are not being extended for minor changes. Thus drug companies are using other methods to preserve their interests via import rules to stop generic drugs coming in from other Countries covered by the world patent office org of which the U.S. is part. This does not include Peurto Rico where many U.S. drugs are manufactured today |
New antenna design
Art Unwin wrote:
Wow ! You are way out of date with respect to PTO procedures on so many things. The main thing is patents have stopped going on for ever. The primary change you have that affects patents today is that patent request are pre printed for the public before they ever reach an examiner. Well not really. First of all an invention disclosure could go on forever as I said because it all is based upon date of filing, or if nothing is filed, date of first publication. If a person submits an invention disclosure to an investor or prospective purchaser that is done with an agreement of confidentiality, not publication. Therefore an invention disclosure not being filed with the USPTO, or publicized is not limited by the one year limitiation. In the US, patent applications are published immediately. The USPTO has a short period to reject applciations out of hand, and if they do not they can be published as soon as the USPTO can, which I know is kind of vague. However, you may request that the application is kept confidental until 18 months from date of application. In the current environment, applications will be seen by an examiner in around 18 months, so it may or may not be the case. It depends upon the queue. If I understand correctly not receiving a patent leaves your request as a free for all in terms of use. Yes. However you have a year to appeal a final rejection. The courts have now put more power in the examiners hands and are less interested in cases challenging the aproved claims. I can't say anything about that, I have never dealt with the courts. For your interest antennas have come to the fore because Chip has sued many cell phone manufacturers for knowingly using Fractal patents. It will be interesting to see how the courts handle this in the light of the many patent changes. Yes. In this case it may depend more upon the quality of legal representation and the authors of the original patent applications. If Chip's patent applications were written well, he may be able to prove infringment. If they were not, then the likelyhood of him getting anything is small. It would depend, IMHO on Chip's lawyers making them feel he is being vicitimized by the big bad cellular companies, or the companies making them feel he is a crackpot inventor who patented something similar, but not the close enough for them to pay him. I've read an article foisted upon me about software patents that claimed they were bad because judges were unable to understand them. IMHO bad judges do not mean the whole system should be thrown out. I also expect that if the case were to go before a jury, it would be next to impossible to convince them of anything on a technical basis. I was then told that I should read the paper's authors book, but to me it seemed ironic (and stupid) to pay $22.50 and postage to be told that my ideas should be free, while theirs were not. You are now seeing more generic drugs over the counter as drug patents are not being extended for minor changes. Thus drug companies are using other methods to preserve their interests via import rules to stop generic drugs coming in from other Countries covered by the world patent office org of which the U.S. is part. This does not include Peurto Rico where many U.S. drugs are manufactured today That's a special case. Most generic drugs come from Israel, which follows FDA regulations and respects international patents, and India which does not. Indira Gandi was presented the case that drug patents were racist, because they prevented brown (Indian) people from buying drugs sold by price-gouging white people (ICL in specific). She allowed that the process could be patented, but not the product itself, allowing Indian manufacturers to make generic drugs without using the approved processes, and not subject to any quality control or testing. WIRED did an excelent article about it a few years ago. If you want more information, I suggest you look it up. As for Puerto Rico, it is part of the US, and since the 1970's has become a haven for drug manufacturers because of the low taxes. The FDA was (is?) loath to approve drugs which they can not supervise the manufacture of, which they can do in Peurto Rico, but not in other countries. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM |
New antenna design
On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 18:44:22 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: For some odd reason, I can't see the five attached figures. Probably my fault (or Quicktime). Here's a copy of the patent application, with the figures included: http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/11-655899.pdf -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
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