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Ground antenna?
Ian Jackson wrote:
Cecil Moore writes Balls should result in fewer lightning strikes at lower voltages. Did you mean 'higher'? Two people separated by a common language? :-) Allow me to rephrase: When the voltages are low, the ball will tend to discourage the lightning strikes because the voltage may be too low to achieve the ionizing threshold potential surrounding the ball. -- 73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, http://www.w5dxp.com |
Ground antenna?
On Oct 23, 2:48*pm, Ian Jackson
wrote: In message , Cecil Moore writes Szczepan Białek wrote: It is a history: "In the early days of lightning conductors, I believe that the French didn't like the nasty pointy things which the British had installed. Instead, they decorated theirs with fancy balls at the top - with sometimes disastrous results. I assume a certain biased reporting of anecdotal evidence.:-) A ball at the top hat of a Tesla coil allows a greater amplitude of voltage to build up before arcing than does a point at the top. Therefo Points should result in more lightning strikes at lower voltages. Balls should result in fewer lightning strikes at lower voltages. Did you mean 'higher'? Can't think of any valid reason why either design should be able to avoid the really big one. Surely, when lightning is about, points allow an essentially continuous discharge at a low current, while balls allow the voltage to build up and up, until there is a big 'splat'? -- Ian In the end, that's about the way I see it, but I consider any discharge by either to really be fairly irrelevant. Trying to avoid strikes by discharge is like whizzing in a whirlwind. :/ The sharp point streams much easier than the ball, so the chances of streaming and connected to a down leader are much greater than with a ball which will resists streaming at those same potentials. If you had a spike next to a ball, I would think the spike would be struck most of the time. You need a good streamer going to lure a down leader. But a ball can still stream if the potential cranks up high enough, and the resulting strike can often be a a stout one if it can overcome the poor streaming of the smooth ball. Both masts should be well grounded. It's not an accident that most lightning rods have a sharp point, the same way as most flag poles have a round ball on top. One is designed to stream as well as possible in order to become a more likely target than what it protects, and the other is designed to stream poorly to resist strikes compared to the other better streaming objects near it. No streamer, no cloud to ground lightning at that point on the earth. BTW, I've got pictures of streamers. You can see them at night, and they bend and point to the down leader as it approaches the earth. The first one it can connect to forms the final path to ground, and I think this is in the last 150 yards or so if I remember right. The leader traveling in appx 150 yard or so steps through the sky. |
Ground antenna?
wrote ... On Oct 23, 2:48 pm, Ian Jackson wrote: In message , Cecil Moore writes Szczepan Białek wrote: It is a history: "In the early days of lightning conductors, I believe that the French didn't like the nasty pointy things which the British had installed. Instead, they decorated theirs with fancy balls at the top - with sometimes disastrous results. I assume a certain biased reporting of anecdotal evidence.:-) A ball at the top hat of a Tesla coil allows a greater amplitude of voltage to build up before arcing than does a point at the top. Therefo Points should result in more lightning strikes at lower voltages. Balls should result in fewer lightning strikes at lower voltages. Did you mean 'higher'? Can't think of any valid reason why either design should be able to avoid the really big one. Surely, when lightning is about, points allow an essentially continuous discharge at a low current, while balls allow the voltage to build up and up, until there is a big 'splat'? -- Ian In the end, that's about the way I see it, but I consider any discharge by either to really be fairly irrelevant. Trying to avoid strikes by discharge is like whizzing in a whirlwind. :/ The sharp point streams much easier than the ball, so the chances of streaming and connected to a down leader No down lider. Excess of electrons is in the stormcloud and they jumps if the difference of voltage exists. At first they jump inside cloud. Next they jump in the all directions outside cloud. But the all jumps are in form of oscillations. Lightnings produce LW. are much greater than with a ball which will resists streaming at those same potentials. If you had a spike next to a ball, I would think the spike would be struck most of the time. We need here the experimental data. Does anybody know? You need a good streamer going to lure a down leader. But a ball can still stream if the potential cranks up high enough, and the resulting strike can often be a a stout one if it can overcome the poor streaming of the smooth ball. The only cause for spark jump is the voltage difference. Spikes decrease it. Both masts should be well grounded. It's not an accident that most lightning rods have a sharp point, the same way as most flag poles have a round ball on top. Is the ball grounded? One is designed to stream as well as possible in order to become a more likely target than what it protects, and the other is designed to stream poorly to resist strikes compared to the other better streaming objects near it. Lightning (electrons) strike the Earth. Grounded ball has the voltage like the Earth. Nongrounded like the air. Such are neutral. Does not prevent and not catch. But may be attacked like all. No streamer, no cloud to ground lightning at that point on the earth. BTW, I've got pictures of streamers. You can see them at night, and they bend and point to the down leader as it approaches the earth. The first one it can connect to forms the final path to ground, and I think this is in the last 150 yards or so if I remember right. The leader traveling in appx 150 yard or so steps through the sky. The oscilations start from very short in all directions and the last steps are longest. S* |
Ground antenna?
On Oct 23, 6:23*pm, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
*"Dave" ... On Oct 23, 8:03 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote: The atmospheric electricity was described in XIX century. At that time Armstrong and Kelvin build the High Voltage Generators (steam and drop).. Also the way how the spikes work. Have you the old books? S* - Show quoted text - I find that the new books have the good information that has been well proved over the last 100 years or so. *There were lots of theories in those old books that have been proved false over the years. *It also helps to work in the field, at the hv lab i work at we can run 3 phase 765kv, +/- 1Mv dc, and about 5Mv pulses. *one of my personal jobs is writing software for lightning protection design on hv power lines, so i have been through this stuff many times. Tell us than what do you use: Plenty of spikes or balls? S* tall towers, well grounded. |
Ground antenna?
On Oct 24, 8:49*am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
... On Oct 23, 2:48 pm, Ian Jackson wrote: In message , Cecil Moore writes Szczepan Białek wrote: It is a history: "In the early days of lightning conductors, I believe that the French didn't like the nasty pointy things which the British had installed. Instead, they decorated theirs with fancy balls at the top - with sometimes disastrous results. I assume a certain biased reporting of anecdotal evidence.:-) A ball at the top hat of a Tesla coil allows a greater amplitude of voltage to build up before arcing than does a point at the top. Therefo Points should result in more lightning strikes at lower voltages. Balls should result in fewer lightning strikes at lower voltages. Did you mean 'higher'? Can't think of any valid reason why either design should be able to avoid the really big one. Surely, when lightning is about, points allow an essentially continuous discharge at a low current, while balls allow the voltage to build up and up, until there is a big 'splat'? -- Ian In the end, that's about the way I see it, but I consider any discharge by either to really be fairly irrelevant. Trying to avoid strikes by discharge is like whizzing in a whirlwind. *:/ The sharp point streams much easier than the ball, so the chances of streaming and connected to a down leader No down lider. Excess of electrons is in the stormcloud and they jumps if the difference of voltage exists. At first they jump inside cloud. Next they jump in the all directions outside cloud. But the all jumps are in form of oscillations. Lightnings produce LW. yes, there are downward leaders. these can be tracked either by their radio noise or by radar. the size and step process has been well known for many years. are much greater than with a ball which will resists streaming at those same potentials. If you had a spike next to a ball, I would think the spike would be struck most of the time. and you think wrong. We need here the experimental data. Does anybody know? yes, but not you. You need a good streamer going to lure a down leader. But a ball can still stream if the potential cranks up high enough, and the resulting strike can often be a a stout one if it can overcome the poor streaming of the smooth ball. The only cause for spark jump is the voltage difference. Spikes decrease it. no they don't. they provide a better place for streamers to start because the sharp point increases the voltage gradient helping it to stream sooner. The oscilations start from very short in all directions and the last steps are longest. there are no oscillation in the step process. and there is no evidence that the steps change length in any report i have seen. |
Ground antenna?
"Dave" napisal w wiadomosci ... On Oct 24, 8:49 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote: ... The sharp point streams much easier than the ball, so the chances of streaming and connected to a down leader No down lider. Excess of electrons is in the stormcloud and they jumps if the difference of voltage exists. At first they jump inside cloud. Next they jump in the all directions outside cloud. But the all jumps are in form of oscillations. Lightnings produce LW. yes, there are downward leaders. these can be tracked either by their radio noise or by radar. the size and step process has been well known for many years. But the upwards liders are also possible. If downward lider oscillate close the high metal tower the electrons in the metal also oscillate and can jump out. But that are details. are much greater than with a ball which will resists streaming at those same potentials. If you had a spike next to a ball, I would think the spike would be struck most of the time. and you think wrong. We need here the experimental data. Does anybody know? yes, but not you. But I agre with you. Nm5k wrote the above: : "I would think the spike would be struck most of the time." You need a good streamer going to lure a down leader. But a ball can still stream if the potential cranks up high enough, and the resulting strike can often be a a stout one if it can overcome the poor streaming of the smooth ball. The only cause for spark jump is the voltage difference. Spikes decrease it. no they don't. they provide a better place for streamers to start because the sharp point increases the voltage gradient helping it to stream sooner. One sharp point provide a better place for streamers to start, but the plenty of them decrease the voltage. The oscilations start from very short in all directions and the last steps are longest. there are no oscillation in the step process. and there is no evidence that the steps change length in any report i have seen. But it is obvious. Each spark is in form of oscillations. No matter if the "electrods" are steady or the distance is increasing. It was discovered by observing the tissue punched by the spark (XIX century). In nowadays reports no obvious thinks. S* |
Ground antenna?
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
Excess of electrons is in the stormcloud and they jumps if the difference of voltage exists. http://www.sleepingearthed.com/pdf/E...lecSurface.pdf -- 73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, http://www.w5dxp.com |
Ground antenna?
On Oct 24, 5:12*pm, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
*"Dave" napisal w ... On Oct 24, 8:49 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote: ... The sharp point streams much easier than the ball, so the chances of streaming and connected to a down leader No down lider. Excess of electrons is in the stormcloud and they jumps if the difference of voltage exists. At first they jump inside cloud. Next they jump in the all directions outside cloud. But the all jumps are in form of oscillations. Lightnings produce LW. yes, there are downward leaders. *these can be tracked either by their radio noise or by radar. *the size and step process has been well known for many years. But the upwards liders are also possible. If downward lider oscillate close the high metal tower the electrons in the metal also oscillate and can jump out. But that are details. are much greater than with a ball which will resists streaming at those same potentials. If you had a spike next to a ball, I would think the spike would be struck most of the time. and you think wrong. We need here the experimental data. Does anybody know? yes, but not you. But I agre with you. Nm5k wrote the above: : "I would think the spike *would be struck most of the time." You need a good streamer going to lure a down leader. But a ball can still stream if the potential cranks up high enough, and the resulting strike can often be a a stout one if it can overcome the poor streaming of the smooth ball. The only cause for spark jump is the voltage difference. Spikes decrease it. no they don't. *they provide a better place for streamers to start because the sharp point increases the voltage gradient helping it to stream sooner. One sharp point provide a better place for streamers to start, but the plenty of them decrease the voltage. The oscilations start from very short in all directions and the last steps are longest. there are no oscillation in the step process. *and there is no evidence that the steps change length in any report i have seen. But it is obvious. Each spark is in form of oscillations. No matter if the "electrods" are steady or the distance is increasing. It was discovered by observing the tissue punched by the spark (XIX century). In nowadays reports no obvious thinks. S* it may be obvious to you, but that doesn't make it true. a spark is not a form of oscillation. and leaders are not sparks. sparks are a very specific phenomenon that is a very short lived breakdown over a short distance. leaders and streamers are long term conductive channels caused by a channel of charge accumulated in them and are progressive breakdowns over long distances. The physics are very different, but in neither are there oscillations. again you go back to ancient history, it is time you updated your reading list. |
Ground antenna?
"Cecil Moore" napisal w wiadomosci ... Szczepan Bialek wrote: Excess of electrons is in the stormcloud and they jumps if the difference of voltage exists. http://www.sleepingearthed.com/pdf/E...lecSurface.pdf This is with the full agreement with me (in fundamentals). It is not easy to read, with the understanding, the electric schemes (diagrams). Look at the page 3. The arrows represent the currents. So the electrons flow in opposite direction. So in sunny day they migrate up. Very up (18 km at equator). The next symbols are the "+" and "-". What they means on this scheme. Electrons migrate very up, but always on the droplets of water (heavy ions), so in the air is the excess of electrons if there are the heavy ions. But what the voltage is there? You remember: small drops - smal voltage (Kelvin's drops generator). Next cooling and condensation take place and larger droplets fall down. But on the larger drops the voltage is higher. The "+" and "-" on electric schemes are use to indicate the direction of the current flow. Electrons flow from "-" to "+". No matter how many electrons is. But that everywhere in the atmosphere is excess of electrons should be obvious for you now. You know that on the surface of the Earth is also always the excess of electrons. But the current flow " if the difference of voltage exists". Not elecricians think that "-" indicate the excess of electrons and "+" the deficit. Such is in physics. The scheme on the page 3 was drawn by electricians. Do you agree? (Richard asks: get it?) S* |
Ground antenna?
"Dave" wrote ... On Oct 24, 5:12 pm, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote: Lightnings produce LW. yes, there are downward leaders. these can be tracked either by their radio noise or by radar. the size and step process has been well known for many years. The oscilations start from very short in all directions and the last steps are longest. there are no oscillation in the step process. and there is no evidence that the steps change length in any report i have seen. But it is obvious. Each spark is in form of oscillations. No matter if the "electrods" are steady or the distance is increasing. It was discovered by observing the tissue punched by the spark (XIX century). In nowadays reports no obvious thinks. S* it may be obvious to you, but that doesn't make it true. a spark is not a form of oscillation. and leaders are not sparks. sparks are a very specific phenomenon that is a very short lived breakdown over a short distance. leaders and streamers are long term conductive channels caused by a channel of charge accumulated in them and are progressive breakdowns over long distances. The physics are very different, but in neither are there oscillations. again you go back to ancient history, it is time you updated your reading list. All breakdown are made by oscillating electrons. They work like the pneumatic hammer. When electron oscillate (like in the Kundt's tube) at the end the voltage is doubled and the next distance is progressed. " Lightnings produce LW. yes, there are downward leaders. these can be tracked either by their radio noise or by radar. the size and step process has been well known for many years" In ECM such initial oscillations are detected and the power is shut down before full breakdown. The electrons have mass and charge - they like oscyllate. They oscillate before the full breakdown and after to dissipate the full energy. In the channel are better conditions to oscillations than in the conductor. S* |
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