Cecil, was it you that mention a "windom balun?"
 

lu6etj wrote in
:

....
For monoband applications we can get more Z from a coaxial choke
making the winding for autorresonance. K1TTT have a good data table.

Time ago I want test differents antenna to lift with a kite and I
found =
http://www.io.com/~n5fc/rfd.htm, the idea seems to me interesting
enough to make some test that are descibed here =

http://www.solred.com.ar/lu6etj/tecn...ga_revisada-en
.htm

from here I think of another use of de "coaxial trap" to get more Z
from coaxial winding specially in monoband antennas, I named de
critter "The Trap balun" =

http://www.solred.com.ar/lu6etj/tecn...a_balun-en.htm

4NEC2 simulations and real field test show me both approachs works
fine :)

How did you arrive at the value of Q (=100) used in the modelling. Was it
measured, or guessed?

Based on some experimental work, I expect that the effective RF
resistance of a closed space solenoidal coil of braided coax is much
higher than the same straight length a copper cylinder.

BTW, if you want to make a more compact self resonant trap on the lower
HF bands, wind the coil in two layers. The article at
http://vk1od.net/antenna/7MDipole/7MDipole.htm shows a pic of a two layer
7MHz self resonant balun made with IIRC about 6 turns per layer of RG6.

Owen

Cecil, was it you that mention a "windom balun?"
 

On Sep 14, 3:02*pm, lu6etj wrote:
For monoband applications we can get more Z from a coaxial choke
making the winding for autorresonance. K1TTT have a good data table.

Good idea. Choose your favorite band for your Carolina Windom and wind
an "ugly balun" choke just below the isolator. An "ugly balun" choke
is capable of forcing a common-mode standing-wave current node
(minimum) on the outside of a coax braid just like a trap is capable
of such on a trapped dipole.
--
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com

Cecil, was it you that mention a "windom balun?"
 

On 9/14/2010 3:37 PM, Cecil Moore wrote:
On Sep 14, 3:02 pm, wrote:
For monoband applications we can get more Z from a coaxial choke
making the winding for autorresonance. K1TTT have a good data table.

Good idea. Choose your favorite band for your Carolina Windom and wind
an "ugly balun" choke just below the isolator. An "ugly balun" choke
is capable of forcing a common-mode standing-wave current node
(minimum) on the outside of a coax braid just like a trap is capable
of such on a trapped dipole.
--
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com

OK, I'll ask, "I am correct in thinking that most are using a 'voltage
balun' (ruthroff 1:4) as the 'Low Loss Matching Transformer' and a
'current balun' (guanella 1:1) as the 'Special-High Isolation Line
Isolator?'"

I mean, logic dictates this to be the best combination ... however, one
is best to ask ...

Regards,
JS

Cecil, was it you that mention a "windom balun?"
 

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
OK, I'll ask, "I am correct in thinking that most are using a 'voltage
balun' (ruthroff 1:4) as the 'Low Loss Matching Transformer' and a
'current balun' (guanella 1:1) as the 'Special-High Isolation Line
Isolator?'"

I mean, logic dictates this to be the best combination ... however, one is
best to ask ...

Regards,
JS


That is what I am using on a home built version. Using a 4:1 voltage balun
at the feedpoint and the ferrite bead type about 20 feet down from the
feedpoint.

The ferrite choke is doing something as it gets warm while running around
about 1 KW to the antenna. Doesn't heat up when going into a dummy load.

My 'Windom' usually works beter than an 80 meter dipole on 80 meters plus
gives me the option to operate several other bands.

Cecil, was it you that mention a "windom balun?"
 

On 9/14/2010 4:11 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

...
That is what I am using on a home built version. Using a 4:1 voltage balun
at the feedpoint and the ferrite bead type about 20 feet down from the
feedpoint.

The ferrite choke is doing something as it gets warm while running around
about 1 KW to the antenna. Doesn't heat up when going into a dummy load.

My 'Windom' usually works beter than an 80 meter dipole on 80 meters plus
gives me the option to operate several other bands.



Sounds like you must be using A LOT of beads for 80m. Why not a couple
#43 toroids, stacked? Or, a t300-X or t400-X?

Regards,
JS

Cecil, was it you that mention a "windom balun?"
 

On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 19:11:43 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:

That is what I am using on a home built version. Using a 4:1 voltage balun
at the feedpoint

This is like using a lighter to find a gas leak in the basement.

and the ferrite bead type about 20 feet down from the
feedpoint.

The ferrite choke is doing something as it gets warm while running around
about 1 KW to the antenna. Doesn't heat up when going into a dummy load.

Hi Ralph,

Through the 4:1? Probably not, or you would have said so (and
unlikely you have gone to the trouble to build a 4:1 dummy load).

As the dummy load is most likely enclosed and shielded, then that
suppresses common mode currents due to your test transmission.

And, yes, when your ferrite choke (AKA 1:1 BalUn) heats up that is due
to common mode currents that were not snubbed by the voltage balun (by
design - so why choose it?).

Add a second ferrite choke (AKA 1:1 BalUn) at the feedpoint -before
feeding the voltage balun.

My 'Windom' usually works beter than an 80 meter dipole on 80 meters plus
gives me the option to operate several other bands.

Better in what sense?

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Cecil, was it you that mention a "windom balun?"
 

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in
m:

....
That is what I am using on a home built version. Using a 4:1 voltage
balun at the feedpoint and the ferrite bead type about 20 feet down
from the feedpoint.

The ferrite choke is doing something as it gets warm while running
around about 1 KW to the antenna. Doesn't heat up when going into a
dummy load.

I am not surprised at your results with a dummy load. If it is a well
screened unbalanced dummy load, you should expect zero dissipation in the
balun cores.

The fact the balun cores are heating in the antenna scenario indicates
there is some common mode current. You probably have no idea of the
current.

Something to keep in mind is that the average power of uncomressed voice
SSB is about 3% of PEP, so if your 1kW was uncompressed voice SSB, the
average transmitter power might be more like 30W, or half that in a 50:50
over scenario over the long term.

Another thing is the ferrite toroids heat and cool very slowly, so the
operating temperature might still be rising half an hour after the
transmitter is applied (so long as you haven't exceeded their Curie
temperature).

It would not surprise me if the common mode choke consumes a significant
portion of transmitter power on some bands, the portion will depend a lot
on your own scenario.

Owen

Cecil, was it you that mention a "windom balun?"
 

"Richard Clark" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 19:11:43 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:

That is what I am using on a home built version. Using a 4:1 voltage
balun
at the feedpoint

This is like using a lighter to find a gas leak in the basement.

and the ferrite bead type about 20 feet down from the
feedpoint.

The ferrite choke is doing something as it gets warm while running around
about 1 KW to the antenna. Doesn't heat up when going into a dummy load.

Hi Ralph,

Through the 4:1? Probably not, or you would have said so (and
unlikely you have gone to the trouble to build a 4:1 dummy load).

As the dummy load is most likely enclosed and shielded, then that
suppresses common mode currents due to your test transmission.

And, yes, when your ferrite choke (AKA 1:1 BalUn) heats up that is due
to common mode currents that were not snubbed by the voltage balun (by
design - so why choose it?).

Add a second ferrite choke (AKA 1:1 BalUn) at the feedpoint -before
feeding the voltage balun.

My 'Windom' usually works beter than an 80 meter dipole on 80 meters plus
gives me the option to operate several other bands.

Better in what sense?

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

I tested the bead choke just by going from the amplifier to the dummy load.
I did not have the 4:1 balun in the line with the dummy load. The dummy
load was 50 ohms. I just ran this test to make sure the beads were heating
up and not the coax. It is a comercial bead choke and the coax was about
the size of rg-58. Suspose to be some kind of higher power rated coax good
for over 1 KW. I just wanted to make sure it was power on the outside of
the coax and not inside the coax. If inside the coax, then it would have
heated up while going into the dummy load as has been mentioned by this
thread.

The 80 meter dipole and the 'Windom' are at right angles to each other
suported on the ends at 50 to 60 feet. In almost all cases the signals are
usually much beter on the Windom. It seems the only time the dipole is
beter is when the stations are almost off the end of the Windom. Stations
around 45 deg to both antennas still give the windom a beter signal.

Cecil, was it you that mention a "windom balun?"
 

"Owen Duffy" wrote in message
...
"Ralph Mowery" wrote in
m:
..

Something to keep in mind is that the average power of uncomressed voice
SSB is about 3% of PEP, so if your 1kW was uncompressed voice SSB, the
average transmitter power might be more like 30W, or half that in a 50:50
over scenario over the long term.

Another thing is the ferrite toroids heat and cool very slowly, so the
operating temperature might still be rising half an hour after the
transmitter is applied (so long as you haven't exceeded their Curie
temperature).

It would not surprise me if the common mode choke consumes a significant
portion of transmitter power on some bands, the portion will depend a lot
on your own scenario.

Owen

I was running the amp around 1 KW with a carrier so the power was a constant
KW.
I only felt the choke while testing on 80 meters. It got warm, but not hot
after about 5 minuits of applied power while hooked to the antenna. Never
got even warm just going into the dummy load.

While I don't know what the choke actually does to the outgoing signal, my
reasoning was to try and keep the unradiated power from comming back in the
the shack and causing problems.

Cecil, was it you that mention a "windom balun?"
 

On 9/14/2010 4:32 PM, Richard Clark wrote:

...
Add a second ferrite choke (AKA 1:1 BalUn) at the feedpoint -before
feeding the voltage balun.


Yeah, screw up the windom pattern and see how you like it then! Why
heat the 1:1 so far away, heat it at the antenna, 30ft up, then you
won't be tempted to check the temp! ROFLOL

...
73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC