![]() |
antenna physics question
Registered User wrote:
Efficiency is a measure so it must have one or more dimensions Efficiency is a ratio usually expressed as a percentage and has no dimensions. The efficiency of an antenna is the radiated power divided by the input power. Power divided by power has no dimensions. The efficiency of an engine is the mechanical energy it produces divided by the thermal energy of the fuel it uses. Energy divided by energy has no dimensions. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
antenna physics question
On Dec 11, 10:00*pm, Art Unwin wrote:
On Dec 11, 9:04*pm, joe wrote: Art Unwin wrote: Think about it Joe If you had an equation for efficiency it would be dimensionless. It depends upon how efficiency is measured. My more efficient car gets 30 MPG, My less efficient car gets 15 MPG. Any equation defining efficiency in terms of miles per gallon does not have a dimensionless result. A meaningful *measure of the efficiency of a transmitting antenna may relate to field strength per watt input, which is not dimensionless. What is your equation? Typically you would have a portion in that equation that depicts perfection and also a portion depicting deviation from perfection.So the second portion points to what creates losses and the first part points to perfection. OK, but what equation are you using for an antenna that has those portions and where does L/C fit? Now look at root L/C which points to the constitution of that which creates losses. Now ideally we would like this portion to be 1 which states zero losses, an ideal situation. Without providing your equation, we don't know how L/C fits. From what you say it is just some term out of nowhere. Thus we can say the losses involved equals root L/C which must equal "1" Logic therefore tells you that both L and C are loss leaders whether they be lumped or distributed and therefore not part of the vectors that create acceleration of charge. How do L and C contribute to loss? Since current and voltage for each is out of phase, the power lost is 0. How do you reconcile this discrepancy with your position? * Remember for legitimacy all formulae must equal zero for equilibrium and therefore resolves into zero units. Now if you are unaware where root L/C appears in the study of radiation this is a good time to hit the books to fill that gap. The books don't reflect your views. I'm trying to understand your position, not some book. Best regards Art Unwin KB9MZ *xg Tom. I don't trust you because of your prior posts but I am following the norm where homework is for copying from the screen before dismissal. As far as research goes their are many discussions available that give support to my position so you have an avenue to research for yourself without denial of mine. If what you say is true regarding L and C then there is indeed a problem. Provide a situation where both inductors and capacitance do not provide losses and is instrumental in creating propagation and I don't mind you providing an excerpt from a book as to what is understood as to how the losses incurred are part and parcel of the resultant forces. Why not quote a formula on efficiency where the inefficiency is not applied as a simple number but instead supplies the constituent values that make up that number. I don't mind you quoting from the books the same as I am doing. Think about it Tom, a capacitor conserves energy and you know that an inductor provides a magnetic field by retaining half of what was supplied, Thus no amount of elements can account for the disposition of all the power supplied. Please note that I am not running away while missiles are being thrown. I am stubborn ,and I am staying, and will respond, and I certainly will not run away! I do thank you in your pursuit but in the absence of believing me your answers will come from researching what I state. Why not start in stating what you do believe about my research ? Gauss and Maxwell Particles not waves The actions of being diamagnetic Levitation Surface flow of current external to the radiator and so on IN ORDER *from my given description. I need to see what base you are operating from and what you do accept so I can build upon it. I will stay with you. If you don't care about what I propose then take leave of the thread because it lacks importance to you. Best regards Art Regard Art Joe I have to apologize with respect to my stance on root L/C which is a constant with respect to critical damping in R L C circuitry. For the life of me I cannot retrace my thinking in the matter or my line of thought, so that line of debate is just not on. However, if current removes itself from an element to travel in a medium on the surface and under a enclosing skin of particles we have removed unwanted resistances from the equation as the particles are in equilibrium and their accelleration is now measurable. At the same time the medium supplies a path for a ground vector. Again I apologize for the path I led you Regards Art |
antenna physics question
On Dec 12, 12:47*pm, Art Unwin wrote:
On Dec 11, 10:00*pm, Art Unwin wrote: On Dec 11, 9:04*pm, joe wrote: Art Unwin wrote: Think about it Joe If you had an equation for efficiency it would be dimensionless. It depends upon how efficiency is measured. My more efficient car gets 30 MPG, My less efficient car gets 15 MPG. Any equation defining efficiency in terms of miles per gallon does not have a dimensionless result. A meaningful *measure of the efficiency of a transmitting antenna may relate to field strength per watt input, which is not dimensionless. What is your equation? Typically you would have a portion in that equation that depicts perfection and also a portion depicting deviation from perfection.So the second portion points to what creates losses and the first part points to perfection. OK, but what equation are you using for an antenna that has those portions and where does L/C fit? Now look at root L/C which points to the constitution of that which creates losses. Now ideally we would like this portion to be 1 which states zero losses, an ideal situation. Without providing your equation, we don't know how L/C fits. From what you say it is just some term out of nowhere. Thus we can say the losses involved equals root L/C which must equal "1" Logic therefore tells you that both L and C are loss leaders whether they be lumped or distributed and therefore not part of the vectors that create acceleration of charge. How do L and C contribute to loss? Since current and voltage for each is out of phase, the power lost is 0. How do you reconcile this discrepancy with your position? * Remember for legitimacy all formulae must equal zero for equilibrium and therefore resolves into zero units. Now if you are unaware where root L/C appears in the study of radiation this is a good time to hit the books to fill that gap. The books don't reflect your views. I'm trying to understand your position, not some book. Best regards Art Unwin KB9MZ *xg Tom. I don't trust you because of your prior posts but I am following the norm where homework is for copying from the screen before dismissal. As far as research goes their are many discussions available that give support to my position so you have an avenue to research for yourself without denial of mine. If what you say is true regarding L and C then there is indeed a problem. Provide a situation where both inductors and capacitance do not provide losses and is instrumental in creating propagation and I don't mind you providing an excerpt from a book as to what is understood as to how the losses incurred are part and parcel of the resultant forces. Why not quote a formula on efficiency where the inefficiency is not applied as a simple number but instead supplies the constituent values that make up that number. I don't mind you quoting from the books the same as I am doing. Think about it Tom, a capacitor conserves energy and you know that an inductor provides a magnetic field by retaining half of what was supplied, Thus no amount of elements can account for the disposition of all the power supplied. Please note that I am not running away while missiles are being thrown. I am stubborn ,and I am staying, and will respond, and I certainly will not run away! I do thank you in your pursuit but in the absence of believing me your answers will come from researching what I state. Why not start in stating what you do believe about my research ? Gauss and Maxwell Particles not waves The actions of being diamagnetic Levitation Surface flow of current external to the radiator and so on IN ORDER *from my given description. I need to see what base you are operating from and what you do accept so I can build upon it. I will stay with you. If you don't care about what I propose then take leave of the thread because it lacks importance to you. Best regards Art Regard Art Joe I have to apologize with respect to my stance on root L/C which is a constant with respect to critical damping in R L C circuitry. For the life of me I cannot retrace my thinking in the matter or my line of thought, so that line of debate is just not on. However, if current removes itself from an element to travel in a medium on the surface and under a enclosing skin of particles we have removed unwanted resistances from the equation as the particles are in equilibrium and their accelleration is now measurable. At the same time the medium supplies a path for a ground vector. Again I apologize for the path I led you Regards Art The following aproach is not necessarily what I had in mind but root L.C. is directly involved in attaining oscillation for a given frequency and thus involved in the resistance implied in the generation of oscillation required for radiation. It is this resistance that represents the other resistance involved other than radiation resistance and removes itself from the element to the medium between the entrapped element and the particles thus leaving the radiation resistance on its own for the generation of charge. A small amount of resistance will remain in the element in the form of recoil from the levitating vector but it is extremely small. I also see this resistance as the spoiler for perpetual motion of a pendulum but that is departing from the subject at hand. and can be neglected. Art |
antenna physics question
On Dec 12, 7:32*pm, Art Unwin wrote:
On Dec 12, 12:47*pm, Art Unwin wrote: On Dec 11, 10:00*pm, Art Unwin wrote: On Dec 11, 9:04*pm, joe wrote: Art Unwin wrote: Think about it Joe If you had an equation for efficiency it would be dimensionless. It depends upon how efficiency is measured. My more efficient car gets 30 MPG, My less efficient car gets 15 MPG. Any equation defining efficiency in terms of miles per gallon does not have a dimensionless result. A meaningful *measure of the efficiency of a transmitting antenna may relate to field strength per watt input, which is not dimensionless.. What is your equation? Typically you would have a portion in that equation that depicts perfection and also a portion depicting deviation from perfection.So the second portion points to what creates losses and the first part points to perfection. OK, but what equation are you using for an antenna that has those portions and where does L/C fit? Now look at root L/C which points to the constitution of that which creates losses. Now ideally we would like this portion to be 1 which states zero losses, an ideal situation. Without providing your equation, we don't know how L/C fits. From what you say it is just some term out of nowhere. Thus we can say the losses involved equals root L/C which must equal "1" Logic therefore tells you that both L and C are loss leaders whether they be lumped or distributed and therefore not part of the vectors that create acceleration of charge. How do L and C contribute to loss? Since current and voltage for each is out of phase, the power lost is 0. How do you reconcile this discrepancy with your position? * Remember for legitimacy all formulae must equal zero for equilibrium and therefore resolves into zero units.. Now if you are unaware where root L/C appears in the study of radiation this is a good time to hit the books to fill that gap. The books don't reflect your views. I'm trying to understand your position, not some book. Best regards Art Unwin KB9MZ *xg Tom. I don't trust you because of your prior posts but I am following the norm where homework is for copying from the screen before dismissal. As far as research goes their are many discussions available that give support to my position so you have an avenue to research for yourself without denial of mine. If what you say is true regarding L and C then there is indeed a problem. Provide a situation where both inductors and capacitance do not provide losses and is instrumental in creating propagation and I don't mind you providing an excerpt from a book as to what is understood as to how the losses incurred are part and parcel of the resultant forces. Why not quote a formula on efficiency where the inefficiency is not applied as a simple number but instead supplies the constituent values that make up that number. I don't mind you quoting from the books the same as I am doing. Think about it Tom, a capacitor conserves energy and you know that an inductor provides a magnetic field by retaining half of what was supplied, Thus no amount of elements can account for the disposition of all the power supplied. Please note that I am not running away while missiles are being thrown. I am stubborn ,and I am staying, and will respond, and I certainly will not run away! I do thank you in your pursuit but in the absence of believing me your answers will come from researching what I state. Why not start in stating what you do believe about my research ? Gauss and Maxwell Particles not waves The actions of being diamagnetic Levitation Surface flow of current external to the radiator and so on IN ORDER *from my given description. I need to see what base you are operating from and what you do accept so I can build upon it. I will stay with you. If you don't care about what I propose then take leave of the thread because it lacks importance to you. Best regards Art Regard Art Joe I have to apologize with respect to my stance on root L/C which is a constant with respect to critical damping in R L C circuitry. For the life of me I cannot retrace my thinking in the matter or my line of thought, so that line of debate is just not on. However, if current removes itself from an element to travel in a medium on the surface and under a enclosing skin of particles we have removed unwanted resistances from the equation as the particles are in equilibrium and their accelleration is now measurable. At the same time the medium supplies a path for a ground vector. Again I apologize for the path I led you Regards Art The following aproach is not necessarily what I had in mind but root L.C. is *directly involved in attaining oscillation for a given frequency and thus involved in the resistance implied in the generation of oscillation required for radiation. It is this resistance that represents the other resistance involved other than radiation resistance and removes itself from the element to the medium between the entrapped element and the particles thus leaving the radiation resistance on its own for the generation of charge. A small amount of resistance will remain in the element in the form of recoil from the levitating vector but it is extremely small. I also see this resistance as the spoiler for perpetual motion of a pendulum but that is departing from the subject at hand. and can be neglected. Art don't worry we already neglect everything you say. |
antenna physics question
On Dec 12, 1:43*pm, K1TTT wrote:
On Dec 12, 7:32*pm, Art Unwin wrote: On Dec 12, 12:47*pm, Art Unwin wrote: On Dec 11, 10:00*pm, Art Unwin wrote: On Dec 11, 9:04*pm, joe wrote: Art Unwin wrote: Think about it Joe If you had an equation for efficiency it would be dimensionless.. It depends upon how efficiency is measured. My more efficient car gets 30 MPG, My less efficient car gets 15 MPG. Any equation defining efficiency in terms of miles per gallon does not have a dimensionless result. A meaningful *measure of the efficiency of a transmitting antenna may relate to field strength per watt input, which is not dimensionless. What is your equation? Typically you would have a portion in that equation that depicts perfection and also a portion depicting deviation from perfection.So the second portion points to what creates losses and the first part points to perfection. OK, but what equation are you using for an antenna that has those portions and where does L/C fit? Now look at root L/C which points to the constitution of that which creates losses. Now ideally we would like this portion to be 1 which states zero losses, an ideal situation. Without providing your equation, we don't know how L/C fits. From what you say it is just some term out of nowhere. Thus we can say the losses involved equals root L/C which must equal "1" Logic therefore tells you that both L and C are loss leaders whether they be lumped or distributed and therefore not part of the vectors that create acceleration of charge. How do L and C contribute to loss? Since current and voltage for each is out of phase, the power lost is 0. How do you reconcile this discrepancy with your position? * Remember for legitimacy all formulae must equal zero for equilibrium and therefore resolves into zero units. Now if you are unaware where root L/C appears in the study of radiation this is a good time to hit the books to fill that gap. The books don't reflect your views. I'm trying to understand your position, not some book. Best regards Art Unwin KB9MZ *xg Tom. I don't trust you because of your prior posts but I am following the norm where homework is for copying from the screen before dismissal. As far as research goes their are many discussions available that give support to my position so you have an avenue to research for yourself without denial of mine. If what you say is true regarding L and C then there is indeed a problem. Provide a situation where both inductors and capacitance do not provide losses and is instrumental in creating propagation and I don't mind you providing an excerpt from a book as to what is understood as to how the losses incurred are part and parcel of the resultant forces. Why not quote a formula on efficiency where the inefficiency is not applied as a simple number but instead supplies the constituent values that make up that number. I don't mind you quoting from the books the same as I am doing. Think about it Tom, a capacitor conserves energy and you know that an inductor provides a magnetic field by retaining half of what was supplied, Thus no amount of elements can account for the disposition of all the power supplied. Please note that I am not running away while missiles are being thrown. I am stubborn ,and I am staying, and will respond, and I certainly will not run away! I do thank you in your pursuit but in the absence of believing me your answers will come from researching what I state. Why not start in stating what you do believe about my research ? Gauss and Maxwell Particles not waves The actions of being diamagnetic Levitation Surface flow of current external to the radiator and so on IN ORDER *from my given description. I need to see what base you are operating from and what you do accept so I can build upon it. I will stay with you. If you don't care about what I propose then take leave of the thread because it lacks importance to you. Best regards Art Regard Art Joe I have to apologize with respect to my stance on root L/C which is a constant with respect to critical damping in R L C circuitry. For the life of me I cannot retrace my thinking in the matter or my line of thought, so that line of debate is just not on. However, if current removes itself from an element to travel in a medium on the surface and under a enclosing skin of particles we have removed unwanted resistances from the equation as the particles are in equilibrium and their accelleration is now measurable. At the same time the medium supplies a path for a ground vector. Again I apologize for the path I led you Regards Art The following aproach is not necessarily what I had in mind but root L.C. is *directly involved in attaining oscillation for a given frequency and thus involved in the resistance implied in the generation of oscillation required for radiation. It is this resistance that represents the other resistance involved other than radiation resistance and removes itself from the element to the medium between the entrapped element and the particles thus leaving the radiation resistance on its own for the generation of charge. A small amount of resistance will remain in the element in the form of recoil from the levitating vector but it is extremely small. I also see this resistance as the spoiler for perpetual motion of a pendulum but that is departing from the subject at hand. and can be neglected. Art don't worry we already neglect everything you say. Well it is interesting to note that the oscillation of a radiater inplanted the notion of a wave as the eye follows the change in amplitude which led to the assumption that the medium entered after leaving the radiator was the Aether of which the product of surface wave came about. Ofcource the medium entered is between the radiator and particle skin where one sees the optical effect on water. It is also interesting to note that element oscillations create a coefficient of discharge on current flow per Bernolli which creates our old friend of Eddy currents such that the two vectors of gravity and rotation continue to survive and where the separation of these two vectors produce light on collisions, but that is speculation on how equilibrium is restored So as Einstein surmised, we followed the route of the two standard vectors or one depending on how you see it using boundary laws, from the containment of the Universe to light emmited from same. It is worthy of note that the helical twist model which represents the beginning of life is also represents the Standard Model as does the "curls" evident on a sea shell artifacts which simulates the equilibrium nature of the pancake antenna and that radiation can be explained by a "point action" (MoM) which also suggest that size or appature does not represent the path to maximum radiation ala the spiral or helical antenna in equilibrium. Kraus was so close but the requirement of equilibrium (closed circuit) under boundary laws which he neglected brought him back to Earth. A final note on the extension of Gauss to the Maxwell equation. As for Einstein he correctly predicted the presence of the STD Model to radiation itself. A Genius no less I came across a science dictionary of sorts by Eric Weinstein, the Nobel prize winner, which is the only reference that I have come across that verifies my explanation of the Gauss extension that everybody denies. So if you are still rigid with respect to "waves": you now have another person to rally against. Regards to all Art Unwin KB9MZ.....xg |
antenna physics question
|
antenna physics question
On Dec 12, 4:49*pm, Registered User wrote:
On Sun, 12 Dec 2010 17:32:53 -0000, wrote: Registered User wrote: Efficiency is a measure so it must have one or more dimensions Efficiency is a ratio usually expressed as a percentage and has no dimensions. The efficiency of an antenna is the radiated power divided by the input power. There are two dimensions in the calculation, radiated power and input power. Although the units of measure associated with the dimensional data may cancel the dimensional metadata doesn't. 80% is just a number where as 80% antenna efficiency provides meaning through the metadata. That metadata can also be properly expressed in terms of dimensions, the ratio of radiated power to input power is 80%. The units of measure may cancel but the dimensional metadata remains. Power divided by power has no dimensions. The efficiency of an engine is the mechanical energy it produces divided by the thermal energy of the fuel it uses. Energy divided by energy has no dimensions. In both examples there are two dimensional values; the numerator and the denominator but the dimensional data as expressed contains no metadata. As a result the calculated measure is just a number with no meaning. *Without metadata to describe the dimensional values, how can one determine which energy or power value is the numerator and which is the denominator? Energy divided by energy means it's a ratio so which is correct A/B or B/A? Until dimensional metadata is assigned the formula and its result have absolutely no meaning. Don't confuse dimensions and dimensional metadata with units of measure. Dimensions contain data and the attributes of that data with UOM being a possible attribute. The descriptive value of the dimensional metadata remains even if the UOMs cancel in a calculation e.g. *the ratio of radiated power to input power, no units just metadata. Without the metadata we're back to power divided by power yielding a meaningless number. I apologize in providing a 'ratio' as a meaningless number and thank you for the research undertaken by you to alert the group of my meaningless error useage. I have assumed, wrongly, that percentage was digital sampling process to obtain productive and a non productive ratio digital comparison or ratio in the base form of 100. If you have some metadata to spare I request that you insert them for the record such that the theme "baffle gab" is carried on for future readers. I also request that you share your particular expertise in this matter with other groups recognizing we all will be the true loosers if you decide to depart but I for one is willing to provide the hardship presented by your absence for the good of all. Regards Art |
antenna physics question
Registered User wrote:
On Sun, 12 Dec 2010 17:32:53 -0000, wrote: Registered User wrote: Efficiency is a measure so it must have one or more dimensions Efficiency is a ratio usually expressed as a percentage and has no dimensions. The efficiency of an antenna is the radiated power divided by the input power. There are two dimensions in the calculation, radiated power and input power. Although the units of measure associated with the dimensional data may cancel the dimensional metadata doesn't. x power/ y power = x/y The units cancel to form a dimensionles, unitless, ratio. This is grade school math. The phrase "dimensional metadata" is meaningless babble. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
antenna physics question
On Sun, 12 Dec 2010 15:11:40 -0800 (PST), Art Unwin
wrote: I apologize in providing a 'ratio' as a meaningless number and thank you for the research undertaken by you to alert the group of my meaningless error useage. I have assumed, wrongly, that percentage was digital sampling process sampling of what? to obtain productive and a non productive ratio ratio of what to what? digital comparison digital comparison of what to what? or ratio in the base form of 100. ration of what to what measured in what? If you have some metadata to spare I request that you insert them for the record such that the theme "baffle gab" is carried on for future readers. I also request that you share your particular expertise in this matter with other groups recognizing we all will be the true loosers if you decide to depart but I for one is willing to provide the hardship presented by your absence for the good of all. Nothing you have written in this post makes sense but that should be expected. AFA metadata goes it is invaluable in data analysis applications including antenna modeling programs. Every variable has its own dimension containing potential values. Each combination of dimension variables produces a measure known as a fact. Changing a single dimensional value can change the value of the fact. If one is modeling an antenna and changes the value of height above ground, the calculated value of the measure will change. Height above ground is only one of the many dimensional values used in the calculation of the measure. This all seems relevant because you question antenna modeling applications' calculations and how they are made. I'll go back to lurking after I stretch so I can be looser. Enter OLAP or analysis cube for more information on metadata and its use in analysis applications. |
antenna physics question
On Dec 12, 6:17*pm, Registered User wrote:
On Sun, 12 Dec 2010 15:11:40 -0800 (PST), Art Unwin wrote: I apologize in providing a 'ratio' as a meaningless number and thank you for the research undertaken by you to alert the group of my meaningless error useage. I have assumed, wrongly, that percentage was *digital sampling process sampling of what? to obtain *productive and a non productive ratio ratio of what to what? digital comparison digital comparison of what to what? or ratio in the base form of 100. ration of what to what measured in what? If you have some metadata to spare I request that you insert them for the record such that the theme "baffle gab" is carried on for future readers. I also request that you share your particular expertise in this matter with other groups recognizing we all will be the true loosers if you decide to depart but I for one is willing to provide the hardship presented by your absence for the good of all. Nothing you have written in this post makes sense but that should be expected. AFA metadata goes it is invaluable in data analysis applications including antenna modeling programs. Every variable has its own dimension containing potential values. Each combination of dimension variables produces a measure known as a fact. Changing a single dimensional value can change the value of the fact. If one is modeling an antenna and changes the value of height above ground, the calculated value of the measure will change. Height above ground is only one of the many dimensional values used in the calculation of the measure. This all seems relevant because you question antenna modeling applications' calculations and how they are made. I'll go back to lurking after I stretch so I can be looser. Enter OLAP or analysis cube for more information on metadata and its use in analysis applications. Metadata is just a expanded project for archival analysis. It is not intended to revise language in various countries so scientific works and patent will not be withdrawn by non conformance with the program by being termed "meaningless" with respect to the new project. The project has had numorous changes and revisions and certainly has not yet arrived in its final form in libraries and archival uses in computer programs There are no plans as yet to announce that most scientific data is to be revised or declared illegal , patents overturned etc Or the institution of such projects where computer language will be taught in schools as a globalization of the new speech or verbal communication of the day in the way Fortran was once considered since thinkers of the computer era are still in a state of flux as to what should be imposed and who has the authority to change. There will be many enforcement programmers milling around to spread virus regarding the program but generally these self appointed programmers and the like are just trying to impose a new regime on the public at hand via the imposition of expansion regulations in a global fashion |
All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:21 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
RadioBanter.com