Need info on antenna issues in Minneapolis area
 

Greetings all,

I am planning to move to the western suburbs of Minneapolis soon, and
would like to know if there are any communities that I should
specifically "look at" or "avoid" due to restrictions on ham radio
antennas or other issues.

Even apart from ham radio issues, I prefer rural to urban, but commute
time to the areas on the west side of downtown is an issue preventing
me from being too far out. Mound is probably the western limit of
what I am willing to consider.

Right now I am looking at Mound, Champlin, and Maple Grove. My
realtor is generally helpful, but amateur radio is a mystery to her
and I do not think she is used to getting such requests.


73,

Cathy (N5WVR)

On 19 Apr 2004 05:45:27 -0700, Cathy James wrote:
Greetings all,

I am planning to move to the western suburbs of Minneapolis soon, and
would like to know if there are any communities that I should
specifically "look at" or "avoid" due to restrictions on ham radio
antennas or other issues.

Even apart from ham radio issues, I prefer rural to urban, but commute
time to the areas on the west side of downtown is an issue preventing
me from being too far out. Mound is probably the western limit of
what I am willing to consider.

Right now I am looking at Mound, Champlin, and Maple Grove. My
realtor is generally helpful, but amateur radio is a mystery to her
and I do not think she is used to getting such requests.


73,

Cathy (N5WVR)

Cathy: this doesn't answer your question, but might give you some food
for thought. If amateur radio and antennas are very important to you
then I think you are making the wrong decision about suburbs. I moved
from a city into the country a few years back; not only did I not have
any hassles putting up antennas but I could not believe the difference
in how QUIET all the bands were. Cities are full of QRN: in fact, it is
unbelievable how much QRN is generated by thousands of appliances, power
lines, computers and cars. I went from a continuous S4-5 background
noise level to maybe S1 on 160-20 metres. It made a HUGE difference to
the pleasure of amateur radio. I was able to work stations I could not
even hear in the city. It was a revelation. You could test this for
yourself with a mobile HF setup if you have access to one.

These days it matters little what suburb you move into - there will
always be someone who does not like tall "ugly" structures "in their
neighbourhood".

Good luck with your decision.

Larry VE7EA

--
********************************
to reply via email remove "fake"

Cathy James wrote:
Greetings all,

I am planning to move to the western suburbs of Minneapolis soon, and
would like to know if there are any communities that I should
specifically "look at" or "avoid" due to restrictions on ham radio
antennas or other issues.

Even apart from ham radio issues, I prefer rural to urban, but commute
time to the areas on the west side of downtown is an issue preventing
me from being too far out. Mound is probably the western limit of
what I am willing to consider.

Right now I am looking at Mound, Champlin, and Maple Grove. My
realtor is generally helpful, but amateur radio is a mystery to her
and I do not think she is used to getting such requests.


She should understand covenants. Have her look into that. Other than
that, there can be township restrictions on antenna towers. Those
usually don't prohibit them, but put limits on height. And you can often
get allowances or exceptions.

Your requests are reasonable and to be expected. Other people make
requests to find out if dogs are allowed in the neighborhood, etc, so
the realtor needs to do their job. You are paying them a lot of money
when you buy your house, so if they can't seem to find covenant and
zoning laws, you might want to mention about finding a realtor that can.


Remember - Mr or Ms Realtor is NOT your friend.



- Mike KB3EIA -

"Cathy James" wrote

| Greetings all,
|
| I am planning to move to the western suburbs of Minneapolis soon, and
| would like to know if there are any communities that I should
| specifically "look at" or "avoid" due to restrictions on ham radio
| antennas or other issues.

The city of Plymouth should be on your list of candidates. We have a
very ham-friendly antenna ordinance which I wrote. You can put up a
70-foot antenna support structure without any variance needed.

Regardless of which city you select, be aware that a particular
developer or homeowners association may have restrictive covenants in
the property deed. Your realtor should be able to uncover those on
properties which interest you.

73, and welcome to Minnesota,

de Hans, K0HB

On 19 Apr 2004 05:45:27 -0700, (Cathy James)
wrote:

Greetings all,

I am planning to move to the western suburbs of Minneapolis soon, ...... My
realtor is generally helpful, but amateur radio is a mystery to her
and I do not think she is used to getting such requests.


73,

Cathy (N5WVR)

You might start by getting the ARRL book, "Antenna Zoning for the
Radio Amateur." And then hire a Minneapolis attorney who specializes
in real estate issues.

Bob
k5qwg

I don't know anything about Minneapolis in particular (except for MSP,
with which I am too well acquainted), but I recommend that you *insist*
on getting information about any CC&Rs and/or Home Owners' Associations
that pertain to the particular subdivision or lot in which you are
interested.

We bought a house in W. Michigan last year in a 30-yr old subdivision
with minimal CC&Rs (with no mention of antennas or transmitters), no
HOA, and underground utilities. Although most municipalities around here
exempt amateur radio towers/antennas up to 70ft from any zoning
ordinances (and the township in which we bought does not even require a
building permit for a tower to ensure that it is safe), all the newer
properties we looked at had draconian CC&Rs specifically outlawing
anything more than a small satellite dish mounted no more than a few
feet above the roof. You *must* check out the CC&Rs before signing
anything, as they typically "run with the land," are recorded at the
local "Registry of Deeds" (or whatever), and are enforceable even if you
have never seen them -- the CC&Rs for the property we bought were not
even made available at the closing (and even if they had been, that
would have been a little late to back out of the deal).

Alan AB2OS


On 04/19/04 08:45 am Cathy James put fingers to keyboard and launched
the following message into cyberspace:

I am planning to move to the western suburbs of Minneapolis soon, and
would like to know if there are any communities that I should
specifically "look at" or "avoid" due to restrictions on ham radio
antennas or other issues.

Even apart from ham radio issues, I prefer rural to urban, but commute
time to the areas on the west side of downtown is an issue preventing
me from being too far out. Mound is probably the western limit of
what I am willing to consider.

Right now I am looking at Mound, Champlin, and Maple Grove. My
realtor is generally helpful, but amateur radio is a mystery to her
and I do not think she is used to getting such requests.

Cathy,

From experience, I would advise you not to depend on realtors, or
anyone else who has an interest in the sale, to inform you concerning
restrictive covenants. It's really not in their interest. The best thing
to do when you find a property in which you are interested is to go to
the courthouse and look up the information yourself.

73,
Bob AD3K

KØHB wrote:

... Your realtor should be able to uncover those on
properties which interest you.

73, and welcome to Minnesota,

de Hans, K0HB




--
Robert L. Spooner
Registered Professional Engineer
Associate Research Engineer
Intelligent Control Systems Department

Applied Research Laboratory Phone: (814) 863-4120
The Pennsylvania State University FAX: (814) 863-7841
P. O. Box 30
State College, PA 16804-0030

Larry Gagnon wrote:
Cathy: this doesn't answer your question, but might give you some food
for thought. If amateur radio and antennas are very important to you
then I think you are making the wrong decision about suburbs. I moved
from a city into the country a few years back; not only did I not have
any hassles putting up antennas but I could not believe the difference
in how QUIET all the bands were.

I have lived in the countryside (1 acre lot, well, septic system, yagi
on roof for TV reception) for years and loved it, but I fear that the
commute time in the Twin Cities will be significantly longer per mile,
and I am not willing to buy into 1 hour+ commutes each way. What
good does it do to get quieter living space (both radio and sound)
if all my free time gets taken up by the commute?

These days it matters little what suburb you move into - there will
always be someone who does not like tall "ugly" structures "in their
neighbourhood".

Well, I wasn't planning to put towers up. But I am hearing horror
stories of people who have been hassled just for stringing a few wires
around their yards. I also have personal memories of causing QRN
to the neighbors back when I lived in an apartment, and that experience
was negative enough to push me out of the HF spectrum for a few years.
I am just now getting back in. (Those consumer lamps that are switched
on and off by touching them think that a passing wave on 15 meters
is a hand touching them and telling them to turn on...makes CW very
interesting to the lamp owner. I fixed that problem by putting chokes
on the neighbor's lamp cords, but I'd hate to do that for every neighbor,
and the problem still existed on 40 meters.)

Getting back to Minneapolis: I would appreciate it if someone
living in the area could give me some very specific guidance on
issues such as "how far west do I have to go to escape the worst QRN",
"how far do I have to go before the area feels rural," and "can I
get a rural feel with a commute to downtown of less than 1 hour
each way". I am in a position where I will probably end up buying a
home without living in the Minneapolis first (coming in from out of
state), and I do not want to make a mistake.

Cathy (N5WVR)

On 19 Apr 2004 14:03:51 -0700, (N2EY) wrote:

Cathy:


Third, try to educate the realtor. Show her some typical amateur
antenna installations so she has a better idea of what it is you want
to put up. Terms like "antenna tower" mean different things to
different people.

Just as an aside, it might be worthwhile to drive around a
prospective purchase area and just look for antennas. A couple of
polite questions might tell you a lot about what is possible.

It might also be worthwhile to Google for amateur radio clubs
in the area to see if they have a feel for local conditions. While
neither of these will necessarily be binding on your particular
property, they might give you a general clue to the area.

For what it's worth, I live in Daly City, a suburb of San
Francisco. This area was built across the 60s. I'm not aware of any
local restrictions, but I have two ham friends within a few blocks,
one of whom has a few slopers and verticals on his roof and the other
of which has about a 60 foot crank-up tower in his back yard with a
yagi that barely fits within his own property lines (maybe a 25' x
150' lot).

Westlake, an area closer to San Francisco, maybe even part of
Daly City for all I know, has extensive CC&Rs, including requirements
to keep your house painted in an acceptable color and to keep a living
palm tree on your living green (grass only) lawn (even those whose
houses are sliding into the Pacific Ocean, aided by pumping all that
water into the ground. Some of the earlier restrictions, like those
restricting sales to certain ethnic groups have been overturned by
courts and some sections of that subdivision are now easing or
abandoning some of the restrictions as the opportunity for the
residents to re-vote on them comes up.

All of which is to say that conditions may vary greatly within
short distances, whether in urban or rural areas. So I have to agree
with the earlier posts which note that the Realtor (tm) -- yes it is a
restricted term than just anyone may not use -- is working for the
seller and that involving a knowledgeabla local real estate attorney
is your only guarantee.

Dear Ms. Cathy:
I ran a township zoning board for 18 years. My experience is that real
estate agents (by whatever name) will tell a buyer anything! to make a
sale. Most of the serious problems dealt with by the board came from
buyers believing "their" agents. The agent is not your friend.
[The only honest agents that I encountered were involved with
million dollar sales with several lawyers (on each side) keeping them
honest, and one other agent who became so appalled at the lack of ethics
that she quit.]
A lawyer with experience in real estate is your best defense. Even
so, check and double check. You have been provided with some good
advice.
Consider the long term benefits of a slightly longer commute time.
In Michigan, 10+ A. is a farm and is treated better than a lot. Raising
antennas is best done on a farm.
Good luck. Remember that the agent, as friendly as she or he may
seem, is not working in your interest. Verify.
73 Mac N8TT

--
J. Mc Laughlin - Michigan USA
Home:

"Robert Spooner" wrote in message
...
Cathy,

From experience, I would advise you not to depend on realtors, or
anyone else who has an interest in the sale, to inform you concerning
restrictive covenants. It's really not in their interest. The best
thing
to do when you find a property in which you are interested is to go to
the courthouse and look up the information yourself.

73,
Bob AD3K

KØHB wrote:

N2EY wrote:
(Cathy James) wrote in message . com...

Greetings all,

I am planning to move to the western suburbs of Minneapolis soon, and
would like to know if there are any communities that I should
specifically "look at" or "avoid" due to restrictions on ham radio
antennas or other issues.

Even apart from ham radio issues, I prefer rural to urban, but commute
time to the areas on the west side of downtown is an issue preventing
me from being too far out. Mound is probably the western limit of
what I am willing to consider.

Right now I am looking at Mound, Champlin, and Maple Grove. My
realtor is generally helpful, but amateur radio is a mystery to her
and I do not think she is used to getting such requests.


Cathy:

First off, you need the services of a good *real estate* attorney. Not
just any lawyer will do; you need someone who does RE as a specialty
and who deals with CC&Rs (codes, covenants and restrictions) on a
daily basis. Make sure the attorney understands that his/her job is to
dig up any and all restrictions on any property you might be
interested in *before* you sign anything.

I don't know about hiring an attorney first off, Jim. Over the course
of buying a hous, I looked at maybe 30 or more. Sorry, I just don't have
the money to pay an attorney to investigate every house I looked at.

When the field got really, really narrow, then perhaps

Second, require that you and your attorney be provided with a complete
and up-to-date set of the deed, title and all covenants and deed
restrictions *before* you make an offer, and read them thoroughly.
Sometimes they are part of the deed/title itself but often they are
not. States differ widely and you may need to be a bit insistent on
what you want to see. Almost all properties built in the past 40-50
years have some sort of restrictions, and those built in the last 30
years often have lots and lots of restrictions of various types. Note
that most restrictions are intentionally designed to be *impossible*
to change, and that by signing on the dotted line you agree to abide
by *all* of them.

Third, try to educate the realtor. Show her some typical amateur
antenna installations so she has a better idea of what it is you want
to put up. Terms like "antenna tower" mean different things to
different people.

Maybe for a little kickback? Seriously, that is the job they are
supposed to do, and considering th eamount of commission they get, they
are supposed to find out things you need to know.

Mind you, I don't think very highly of most of them. I could tell you
about the time that we took a tour of a house that was already sold. Or
the time we put a down payment on a house that the agent "neglected" to
tell us was in a flood plain until the day after the check was cashed. I
told him he had exactly 30 minutes to repay us the money. Took 15.

Fourth, realize that most but not all of the people involved in a real
estate transaction only get paid if you actually buy a house. No sale
= no comission/fees/taxes.

Sure enough. That isn't an excuse for incompetence tho'.

In my case the realtor and attorney were able to get me a complete
copy of the restrictions fairly easily. They were *not* part of the
deed/title documents - instead, those documents referred to the
restrictions, which had to be retrieved from the county courthouse
records. I had to ask specifically to see them early on in the
transaction - if I hadn't insisted, I would never have seen them at
all. Until somebody complained.

Part of their job, like asking to see only green houses. Or not green
houses.


Even though my house is over 50 years old and there has never been any
sort of home owner's association, there were a page and a half of
restrictions. Most of them seem a bit comical today (no raising
livestock on a property that is 60 x 120 feet) or have been superseded
by more-restrictive township ordinances (setbacks, advertising
signage, noise). No mention of antennas but I can't have a
freestanding tower (or a shed) with a concrete base because that would
constitute a "structure" and only the house and garage structures are
permitted.
Doesn't matter to me because there's no room for a tower anyway but
that's the sort of thing to look for.


I got lucky when I bought my house. I could put up a 40 foot tower
without a problem, and no restrictions on wire antennas. I say lucky,
because I didn't become interested in the ARS until after we were in the
place for 5 years or so.


- Mike KB3EIA -

On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 21:46:49 GMT, wrote:

For what it's worth, I live in Daly City, a suburb of San
Francisco. This area was built across the 60s. I'm not aware of any
local restrictions, but I have two ham friends within a few blocks,
one of whom has a few slopers and verticals on his roof and the other
of which has about a 60 foot crank-up tower in his back yard with a
yagi that barely fits within his own property lines (maybe a 25' x
150' lot).

I lived in Daly City (St, Francis Heights area) from 1977 to 1985
and there were no restrictions on the 1960-era house and lot.

Westlake, an area closer to San Francisco, maybe even part of
Daly City for all I know,

Yes, the Westlake District is an integral part of Daly City that was
the first tract development by Henry Doelger post WW-II (in fact
when one says "Daly City" one thinks of Westlake first).

has extensive CC&Rs, including requirements
to keep your house painted in an acceptable color and to keep a living
palm tree on your living green (grass only) lawn

That requirement was overturned as unreasonable by a court case in
the early 1970s.

My kids, OTOH, live in one of the condos up near the water tanks in
the foothills of San Bruno Mountain (still in Daly City) and there
are CC&Rs up the wazoo. For obvious reasons they did not seek my
legal advice or assistance before they bought the (obscenely-priced)
property - no big deal, neither of them are hams.

All of which is to say that conditions may vary greatly within
short distances, whether in urban or rural areas. So I have to agree
with the earlier posts which note that the Realtor (tm) -- yes it is a
restricted term than just anyone may not use -- is working for the
seller and that involving a knowledgeabla local real estate attorney
is your only guarantee.

Now for Cathy -

Make your receiving, examination, and acceptance of all the
restrictions (CC&Rs and any Homeowners' Association Regulations)
a contingency of any offer, and get some advice from a local
ARRL Volunteer Counsel who can give you local information of the
sort that Hans gave you about Plymouth. VCs are listed on the ARRL
web site - you should touch base with one first.

Also it would not be a bad idea to touch base with Jay Bellows,
K0QB, the ARRL Dakota Division Director who lives in St. Paul. Jay
is one of a handful of us attorneys who deal in zoning, permit, and
legal issues involving amateur stations on a regular basis, and was
the attorney who was successful in getting the key U S Court of
Appeals ruling in _Pentel v Mendota Heights_ upholding the FCC's
requirement that a municipality must give "reasonable accomodation"
to amateur antenna structure applicants.

I can only wish you good fortune in finding a place that suits your
needs.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
ARRL Volunteer Counsel

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 19:48:18 -0400, "J. McLaughlin"
wrote:

Dear Ms. Cathy:
I ran a township zoning board for 18 years. My experience is that real
estate agents (by whatever name) will tell a buyer anything! to make a
sale. Most of the serious problems dealt with by the board came from
buyers believing "their" agents. The agent is not your friend.
[The only honest agents that I encountered were involved with
million dollar sales with several lawyers (on each side) keeping them
honest, and one other agent who became so appalled at the lack of ethics
that she quit.]
A lawyer with experience in real estate is your best defense. Even
so, check and double check. You have been provided with some good
advice.
Consider the long term benefits of a slightly longer commute time.
In Michigan, 10+ A. is a farm and is treated better than a lot. Raising
antennas is best done on a farm.
Good luck. Remember that the agent, as friendly as she or he may
seem, is not working in your interest. Verify.
73 Mac N8TT

You will save yourself a lot of grief by visiting the city or county
planning and zoning (P&Z) office, and or maybe the codes enforcement
office if there is one. Ask them what restrictions are in the
ordinances. Keep in mind that if the neighborhood you are in has
protective covenants, those may be a matter of law (ie the developer
submitted them to the city/county and when his development was
approved, the covenants became part of the zoning or plat). Even if
the covenants are not part of the city/county zoning/code, by signing
the did you may be signing compliance with any restrictions/covenants.
These could amount to a legal contract, and herein is where only an
attorney can tell you how hooked you are and/or what your options are.
Good luck!
73
dt

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
N2EY wrote:

First off, you need the services of a good *real estate* attorney. Not
just any lawyer will do; you need someone who does RE as a specialty
and who deals with CC&Rs (codes, covenants and restrictions) on a
daily basis. Make sure the attorney understands that his/her job is to
dig up any and all restrictions on any property you might be
interested in *before* you sign anything.

I don't know about hiring an attorney first off, Jim. Over the course
of buying a hous, I looked at maybe 30 or more. Sorry, I just don't have
the money to pay an attorney to investigate every house I looked at.

Mike & Cathy,

Sorry if I wasn't clear about the attorney's role. My point was that
the thing to do is to line up a good RE attorney right away, with the
understanding that when you are seriously considering a particular
house you'll have the attorney research it.

In my local RE market, things move so fast that you need to have all
your people ready to go beforehand. MN may be different, though.

When the field got really, really narrow, then perhaps

Second, require that you and your attorney be provided with a complete
and up-to-date set of the deed, title and all covenants and deed
restrictions *before* you make an offer, and read them thoroughly.
Sometimes they are part of the deed/title itself but often they are
not. States differ widely and you may need to be a bit insistent on
what you want to see. Almost all properties built in the past 40-50
years have some sort of restrictions, and those built in the last 30
years often have lots and lots of restrictions of various types. Note
that most restrictions are intentionally designed to be *impossible*
to change, and that by signing on the dotted line you agree to abide
by *all* of them.

Third, try to educate the realtor. Show her some typical amateur
antenna installations so she has a better idea of what it is you want
to put up. Terms like "antenna tower" mean different things to
different people.

Maybe for a little kickback? Seriously, that is the job they are
supposed to do, and considering th eamount of commission they get, they
are supposed to find out things you need to know.

In a perfect world, yes. But fewer than 1 in 100 Americans is a ham,
and many hams are in the same family, so the chances are good that a
given RE agent will have little or no experience with antenna
restriction covenants and such.

Mind you, I don't think very highly of most of them. I could tell you
about the time that we took a tour of a house that was already sold. Or
the time we put a down payment on a house that the agent "neglected" to
tell us was in a flood plain until the day after the check was cashed. I
told him he had exactly 30 minutes to repay us the money. Took 15.

Was this *your* agent or *their* agent?

Fourth, realize that most but not all of the people involved in a real
estate transaction only get paid if you actually buy a house. No sale
= no comission/fees/taxes.

Sure enough. That isn't an excuse for incompetence tho'.

'Course not. But it happens nonetheless. Laws differ by state - I only
know PA and I'm not an attorney.

In my case the realtor and attorney were able to get me a complete
copy of the restrictions fairly easily. They were *not* part of the
deed/title documents - instead, those documents referred to the
restrictions, which had to be retrieved from the county courthouse
records. I had to ask specifically to see them early on in the
transaction - if I hadn't insisted, I would never have seen them at
all. Until somebody complained.

Part of their job, like asking to see only green houses. Or not green
houses.

Point is you have to tell them about the green and how you define
"green".

Even though my house is over 50 years old and there has never been any
sort of home owner's association, there were a page and a half of
restrictions. Most of them seem a bit comical today (no raising
livestock on a property that is 60 x 120 feet) or have been superseded
by more-restrictive township ordinances (setbacks, advertising
signage, noise). No mention of antennas but I can't have a
freestanding tower (or a shed) with a concrete base because that would
constitute a "structure" and only the house and garage structures are
permitted.
Doesn't matter to me because there's no room for a tower anyway but
that's the sort of thing to look for.

I got lucky when I bought my house. I could put up a 40 foot tower
without a problem, and no restrictions on wire antennas. I say lucky,
because I didn't become interested in the ARS until after we were in the
place for 5 years or so.

Someday I will have the proverbial couple of unrestricted acres in the
country with the antenna farm. Right now other considerations govern.
That's the spot most hams are in when house hunting.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Kathy, I lived in Shorewood, Excelsior, Chanhassen, and Orono. Non of
those
towns have restrictions that I knew of.
Only new developments will have restrictions. The older communities
never had them and porbably won't.
You can find really nice wooded properties out in the western
suburbs, with good antenna trees. Orono would be a good place to
look.
Pat W0OPW

Cathy

Thanks to a couple hams in this city, Golden Valley MN has very nice
antenna "restrictions". I don't know all the rules, but as I understand
things, the city essentially matches most of the FCC regs. The only
thing I would check on is maximum tower height. A large number of
antenna installations are allowed with no permissions at all.

Feel free to email me at throwaway27 at taring.org

tom
K0TAR

Cathy James wrote:

Greetings all,

I am planning to move to the western suburbs of Minneapolis soon, and
would like to know if there are any communities that I should
specifically "look at" or "avoid" due to restrictions on ham radio
antennas or other issues.

Even apart from ham radio issues, I prefer rural to urban, but commute
time to the areas on the west side of downtown is an issue preventing
me from being too far out. Mound is probably the western limit of
what I am willing to consider.

Right now I am looking at Mound, Champlin, and Maple Grove. My
realtor is generally helpful, but amateur radio is a mystery to her
and I do not think she is used to getting such requests.


73,

Cathy (N5WVR)

"Tom Ring" wrote


| Thanks to a couple hams in this city, Golden Valley MN has very nice
| antenna "restrictions".

Golden Valley is very ham friendly. The city donates space in the
Public Safety building for our W0EF club station. See
http://www.tcfmc.org We have a full 2-position contest station on
MF/HF, antenna towers atop the building, etc. They also provide a free
meeting room for our club meetings, and break-room facilities for
coffee/snacks during contest weekends and club meetings. The only
"cost" to our club is that we provide a 2-person Skywarn team at their
EOC during severe-wx.

73, de Hans, K0HB