Telescoping Masts
 

How the heck did those TV crews of yesteryear erect 40+ foot
telescoping antenna masts sitting atop pointed roofs? Its not
exactly like you can set up a step ladder on such a roof to
get up the first 10 foot to pull up the rest of the sections.
Also setting the guys correctly is nothing to sneeze at I am
finding out. Maybe they worked it from the top section
down...of course.....! Pluse they already knew from previous
experience with standard hardware how long to make the
guys....I beginning to see the light....not that I can use
that technique.

At the moment I am still recovering from the stress of a yet
unfinished mast erecting project and when I calm down or when
I am out of deep water so to speak, I will tell you the rest
of the story of untangling the pre-strung guys and ropes etc.
It is one of those crazy situations where you yourself are
the only accountable engineer, everyone thinks your crazy,
and you dare not tell anyone what you were thinking because
they would just tell you that you must be nuts.

Mostly I better keep this project to myself until I am either
out of the hot water or I abort it. Please wish me luck since
I am a fellow antenna dream farmer gone of the deep end it
seeems.......


BTW, I am not trying to do this atop such a pointed roof, and
it still is quite challenging. One is almost up leaning on
on end of a barn, another will be free standing out in the
field, another will be tied onto a 20 foot "telephone pole"
set in another part of the field (hoping to get an additional
24' or so. Plus two more I won's even go into..


then, I heard that sky wire loops are nothing all that great
anyway......

talk about taking the wind out of one's sails when one is in
the middle of an engineering crises....its all the fun of
AMATEUR radio......amateur with its root meaning "to
love"....



Bill K6TAJ

"zeno" wrote in message ...
How the heck did those TV crews of yesteryear erect 40+ foot
telescoping antenna masts sitting atop pointed roofs? Its not
exactly like you can set up a step ladder on such a roof to
get up the first 10 foot to pull up the rest of the sections.

That's exactly what we did! When you are
young and fearless and believe in your
personal immortality, it's amazing what
you can do ;-)

73, John - K6QQ

That is amazing, like you say.

Now that you mention it, I see no other way to do it. So I guess I will quit my
bellyaching about doing just that out in an open field pulling up 4 ten foot
sections after the first base 10 feet is mounted and guyed.

How did you secure a step ladder on the peak of a roof?

Bill K6TAJ

John Moriarity wrote:

"zeno" wrote in message ...
How the heck did those TV crews of yesteryear erect 40+ foot
telescoping antenna masts sitting atop pointed roofs? Its not
exactly like you can set up a step ladder on such a roof to
get up the first 10 foot to pull up the rest of the sections.

That's exactly what we did! When you are
young and fearless and believe in your
personal immortality, it's amazing what
you can do ;-)

73, John - K6QQ

Hi John,

For a 50' tall mast, what would you say would be the minimum acceptible square
dimensions from vertices (on a flat plane with the base) of the guy wire anchor
points?

Bill K6TAJ

John Moriarity wrote:

"zeno" wrote in message ...
How the heck did those TV crews of yesteryear erect 40+ foot
telescoping antenna masts sitting atop pointed roofs? Its not
exactly like you can set up a step ladder on such a roof to
get up the first 10 foot to pull up the rest of the sections.

That's exactly what we did! When you are
young and fearless and believe in your
personal immortality, it's amazing what
you can do ;-)

73, John - K6QQ

" For a 50' tall mast, what would you say would be the minimum acceptible
square
dimensions from vertices (on a flat plane with the base) of the guy wire
anchor
points?

Since it is easy to design a 100' mast with no guying required, there is
obviously more information required to answer that question.

Jack

How did you secure a step ladder on the peak of a roof?

Well, If you're still somewhat chicken,
you can enlist another person to foot
the ladder ;-)

73, John - K6QQ

For a 50' tall mast, what would you say would be the minimum acceptible
square
dimensions from vertices (on a flat plane with the base) of the guy wire
anchor
points?

I can't answer that authoritatively. Usually
the distance was to the edge of the roof ;-)

73, John - K6QQ

Jack Painter wrote:

" For a 50' tall mast, what would you say would be the minimum acceptible
square
dimensions from vertices (on a flat plane with the base) of the guy wire
anchor
points?

Since it is easy to design a 100' mast with no guying required, there is
obviously more information required to answer that question.

Jack

Hi Jack,

That reminds me of that legendary character who was looking for his keys a
thousand feet from where he lost them because the light was better over
there, hi hi.

Bill K6TAJ

John Moriarity wrote:

For a 50' tall mast, what would you say would be the minimum acceptible
square
dimensions from vertices (on a flat plane with the base) of the guy wire
anchor
points?

I can't answer that authoritatively. Usually
the distance was to the edge of the roof ;-)

73, John - K6QQ

Well, I guess I will just put the guy wires as far out as I can without
bumping into the trees in the orchard.....or I might just not put up this
extra 50' mast at all, but that means I will have to span nearly 180 feet on
one side of my square loop skywire.

I am already falling out of favor with those around me here with this crazy
antenna project....such is the misunderstood life of the ham ....at least I
am in the country and it is my own place....and the waf is not an issue at
the moment. Some people do not find a 50 foot mast in the middle of an
orchard as beautiful as I do. I think the "industrial" aesthetic needs to be
boosted a bit these days....fortuitious pun...perhaps intended....


Bill - K6TAJ

zeno wrote:
How the heck did those TV crews of yesteryear erect 40+ foot
telescoping antenna masts sitting atop pointed roofs?
(snip)

BTW, I am not trying to do this atop such a pointed roof, and
it still is quite challenging. One is almost up leaning on
on end of a barn, another will be free standing out in the
field, another will be tied onto a 20 foot "telephone pole"
set in another part of the field (hoping to get an additional
24' or so. Plus two more I won's even go into..
(snip)

Bill K6TAJ


I'm planning a couple 50' telescoping masts with pulleys at the top to
hold up a long, center fed Zepp. I plan to erect some scaffolding
around the masts so the deck is at 8-9 feet, then pull up each section
while using temporary guys until it's all the way up, set the guys, take
down the scaffolding, hoist up the Zepp and have a beer.

I haven't done it yet but it would seem that it would be easier standing
on a deck, not balancing on the top of a ladder while lifting so much
weight. Scaffolding gives you a bigger place to stand, big enough you
can add a second person and make it that much easier. It also serves to
help hold the mast vertical if you tie the bottom section to the scaff.

I could see setting scaffolding over the peak of a roof to set up a mast
there.

-Galen, W8LNA

Bill:

You need to enlist a little geometry and mechanical engineering. We like to
keep our top guys at 45 degrees or less (ground up to guy) where space
permits. The down force on the mast for each guy is then .707 of the guy
tension. As the guys get steeper, the down force on the mast becomes a
larger and larger portion of the total tension. So for a smaller
'footprint' with the guys near straight up, any side force on the guy from
wind or antenna tension becomes a larger down force on the mast. I need to
make drawings to clarify that point, so find someone mechanically inclined
to wave their hands and draw lines and make calculations for you.

As far as the stepladder on the roof, consider the average male is just
under 6' tall, with an 18" up reach. So he has to stand only 4 feet above
the mounting level of the base of the mast to erect it. A 5 foot stepladder
straddling the peak of most roofs is relatively stable if you are young,
limber and agile. Having the first (bottom) section SOLIDLY guyed is a
must. At least that's what I remember from the middle of the last century.

--
Crazy George
Remove N O and S P A M imbedded in return address
"zeno" wrote in message ...
Hi John,

For a 50' tall mast, what would you say would be the minimum acceptible
square
dimensions from vertices (on a flat plane with the base) of the guy wire
anchor
points?

Bill K6TAJ

John Moriarity wrote:

"zeno" wrote in message
...
How the heck did those TV crews of yesteryear erect 40+ foot
telescoping antenna masts sitting atop pointed roofs? Its not
exactly like you can set up a step ladder on such a roof to
get up the first 10 foot to pull up the rest of the sections.

That's exactly what we did! When you are
young and fearless and believe in your
personal immortality, it's amazing what
you can do ;-)

73, John - K6QQ

Hi Bill

After a serious fall a number of years ago, I am now terrified of
heights like you wouldn't believe.

Yet I am still able to put up 50 foot towers, push-ups and even
sectional guyed poles by myself with no problems.

On push-up poles, I lay them on the ground first, open them up, make
point to point guy ring measurements, mark the poles for their maximum
safe expansion and close the assembly back up and haul it up to the
roof.

The main body is guyed and finished off prior to doing anything else.
Using the formula to find the hypoteneuse the guys are marked for full
length, then remarked for each lifting stage of the operation.

The antenna or antennas are affixed to the innermost or highest part
of the mast, which is only extended at this time long enough to do
this operation. The ladder to reach them is set on the roof and tied
to the now rigid base mast section.

Before lifting, the guys for section one are clamped at their first
set of markings, which allows a little slack or you couldn't lift it
to the proper fixed height. After the clamps are in place, as you
lift the first section, the guys slide through the eyes until they
near the clamp. The mast is only lifted about 2 feet at a time and
the standoffs for the ladder line are installed or the coax affixed to
the mast with ties. Again it is lifted another 2 feet and a standoff
or tie or both are installed. Repeated until you reach your 10 foot
marking and this top section is then locked down solid.

Now clamps are installed to the guys for section two to the first
marking, the clamps for section one are loosened and clamps installed
on the second marking for the upper guys.
Here is where it helps to have 3 or 4 extra helpers to feed guys and
keep them fairly taught. But if you don't have them, the pole is not
going to fall further than the next set of clamps on the guys, or
about a 2 to 3 foot lean at this early stage, the lean gets less as
the guys get longer.

The second mast is pushed up, usually by bouncing it so the first
clamps of the section one guys can slide on the cables but still have
enough tension to hold the antenna upright for you.
Again, working in 2 foot increments, the standoffs and/or ties are
installed.

By the time you get section two up to maximum height, you will not be
able to lift the remaining sections by hand. It's not the weight,
it's the tension on the guys and floating clamps that are your enemy.
If your familiar with how a Pony clamp set works, I had a similar tool
made for lifting push-pole sections. A clamp is affixed to pole two
and to the main mast in two places. I simply turn the handle to lift
the pole about 8 inches, then lock it down, crank the tool back down,
let it catch the pole and unlock the mast and crank it up another 8
inches and repeat until I get to the two foot point. Then I install
the standoffs and/or ties or both. Then repeat again.

Once the whole assembly is at full height, the guys are then tensioned
to their proper rating. If your guys are NOT equal distance from the
tower, you will have to make adjustments to the tension settings to
maintain a perfectly vertical pole.

Many of your guys themselves can be used as antennas if you plan for
this before setting up the system.

I put up an 80 foot vertical single handedly using only 1 inch 10 foot
sections of interconnecting pipes. We had intended going up 100 feet,
but the pipe was not strong enough to hold itself without telescoping
and splitting, so we halted at 80 feet. It stood for 9 years
untouched and without problems. Taking it down was really simple.
One hit to the lower pipe with a baseball bat and the whole thing came
straight down on itself and finally stopped dropping at about 15 feet
of height and leaned over, the antenna did not touch the ground and
was salvagable.

TTUL
Gary

I installed a Hy-Gain TH-3 Jr and an Alliance TV rotor on a 20 foot TV mast
on a 2 story house -- used a heavy duty antenna tripod for a base-- total
height 42 feet.

The drill was with 5 "Amateurs":
1. Under the roof -- installed 4 by 4's to take lag bolts from the Tripod
base
2. Bolted down the tripod mount to roof and 4x4's -- under the roof added
sealant to prevent water entering.
3. Raised collapsed TV mast with antenna rotor and 4 guy wires --secured in
tripod
4. Guyed the 10 foot section with the 4 guy wires
5. Set step ladder next to 10 foot guyed section -- secured ladder with rope
to mast
6. Stong buddy also held ladder against mast
7. Tall guy (me) ascends ladder. Had rope around my waist in case I nose
dived off of the ladder
8. Horsed the collapsed section with 4 more guy wires attached -- up to 20
feet - secured guy wires (Total 8 guy wires)
9. Fed all hands Pizza and beer.
10. Antenna stayed up there thru storms winds et al for 15 years before I
moved.

Your installation may vary -- this is just the way we did it -- but we were
are not professional installers, so caveat installer. I take no
responsibility for your installation.

You should contact professional TV antenna installers for their approval --
or better yet -- let them install it.


--
deje a lector guardarse

Amateur Radio is the best back-up
communications system in the world,
and that's the way it is. Walter Cronkite





"John Moriarity" wrote in message
...
How did you secure a step ladder on the peak of a roof?

Well, If you're still somewhat chicken,
you can enlist another person to foot
the ladder ;-)

73, John - K6QQ

Hi George,

A 45 degree angled guy from the top of a 50' tall mast will be out 50' from the
base of the mast. That would suggest that the "square" made from the four
anchor points is 100' on a side. I will have to look at the site and see if
that is possible.

Bill

Crazy George wrote:

Bill:

You need to enlist a little geometry and mechanical engineering. We like to
keep our top guys at 45 degrees or less (ground up to guy) where space
permits. The down force on the mast for each guy is then .707 of the guy
tension. As the guys get steeper, the down force on the mast becomes a
larger and larger portion of the total tension. So for a smaller
'footprint' with the guys near straight up, any side force on the guy from
wind or antenna tension becomes a larger down force on the mast. I need to
make drawings to clarify that point, so find someone mechanically inclined
to wave their hands and draw lines and make calculations for you.

As far as the stepladder on the roof, consider the average male is just
under 6' tall, with an 18" up reach. So he has to stand only 4 feet above
the mounting level of the base of the mast to erect it. A 5 foot stepladder
straddling the peak of most roofs is relatively stable if you are young,
limber and agile. Having the first (bottom) section SOLIDLY guyed is a
must. At least that's what I remember from the middle of the last century.

--
Crazy George
Remove N O and S P A M imbedded in return address
"zeno" wrote in message ...
Hi John,

For a 50' tall mast, what would you say would be the minimum acceptible
square
dimensions from vertices (on a flat plane with the base) of the guy wire
anchor
points?

Bill K6TAJ

John Moriarity wrote:

"zeno" wrote in message
...
How the heck did those TV crews of yesteryear erect 40+ foot
telescoping antenna masts sitting atop pointed roofs? Its not
exactly like you can set up a step ladder on such a roof to
get up the first 10 foot to pull up the rest of the sections.

That's exactly what we did! When you are
young and fearless and believe in your
personal immortality, it's amazing what
you can do ;-)

73, John - K6QQ

Hi Gary,

Thanks for the thorough instructions. I am not sure I understand the pony
clamp, but I agree that I can see a problem trying to lift up the
combined weight of the last 4 of the 5 sections after the first 10 foot
section is in place. Where can I see an image of such a "pony clamp"? I
have two people trying to pull it up maybe it can be done by hand.

Bill

"Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr." wrote:

Hi Bill

After a serious fall a number of years ago, I am now terrified of
heights like you wouldn't believe.

Yet I am still able to put up 50 foot towers, push-ups and even
sectional guyed poles by myself with no problems.

On push-up poles, I lay them on the ground first, open them up, make
point to point guy ring measurements, mark the poles for their maximum
safe expansion and close the assembly back up and haul it up to the
roof.

The main body is guyed and finished off prior to doing anything else.
Using the formula to find the hypoteneuse the guys are marked for full
length, then remarked for each lifting stage of the operation.

The antenna or antennas are affixed to the innermost or highest part
of the mast, which is only extended at this time long enough to do
this operation. The ladder to reach them is set on the roof and tied
to the now rigid base mast section.

Before lifting, the guys for section one are clamped at their first
set of markings, which allows a little slack or you couldn't lift it
to the proper fixed height. After the clamps are in place, as you
lift the first section, the guys slide through the eyes until they
near the clamp. The mast is only lifted about 2 feet at a time and
the standoffs for the ladder line are installed or the coax affixed to
the mast with ties. Again it is lifted another 2 feet and a standoff
or tie or both are installed. Repeated until you reach your 10 foot
marking and this top section is then locked down solid.

Now clamps are installed to the guys for section two to the first
marking, the clamps for section one are loosened and clamps installed
on the second marking for the upper guys.
Here is where it helps to have 3 or 4 extra helpers to feed guys and
keep them fairly taught. But if you don't have them, the pole is not
going to fall further than the next set of clamps on the guys, or
about a 2 to 3 foot lean at this early stage, the lean gets less as
the guys get longer.

The second mast is pushed up, usually by bouncing it so the first
clamps of the section one guys can slide on the cables but still have
enough tension to hold the antenna upright for you.
Again, working in 2 foot increments, the standoffs and/or ties are
installed.

By the time you get section two up to maximum height, you will not be
able to lift the remaining sections by hand. It's not the weight,
it's the tension on the guys and floating clamps that are your enemy.
If your familiar with how a Pony clamp set works, I had a similar tool
made for lifting push-pole sections. A clamp is affixed to pole two
and to the main mast in two places. I simply turn the handle to lift
the pole about 8 inches, then lock it down, crank the tool back down,
let it catch the pole and unlock the mast and crank it up another 8
inches and repeat until I get to the two foot point. Then I install
the standoffs and/or ties or both. Then repeat again.

Once the whole assembly is at full height, the guys are then tensioned
to their proper rating. If your guys are NOT equal distance from the
tower, you will have to make adjustments to the tension settings to
maintain a perfectly vertical pole.

Many of your guys themselves can be used as antennas if you plan for
this before setting up the system.

I put up an 80 foot vertical single handedly using only 1 inch 10 foot
sections of interconnecting pipes. We had intended going up 100 feet,
but the pipe was not strong enough to hold itself without telescoping
and splitting, so we halted at 80 feet. It stood for 9 years
untouched and without problems. Taking it down was really simple.
One hit to the lower pipe with a baseball bat and the whole thing came
straight down on itself and finally stopped dropping at about 15 feet
of height and leaned over, the antenna did not touch the ground and
was salvagable.

TTUL
Gary

Only three guys are needed. Your 100 foot number may be in error.

How about 75 feet between anchors in a three guy wire system?

zeno wrote:

Hi George,

A 45 degree angled guy from the top of a 50' tall mast will be out 50' from the
base of the mast. That would suggest that the "square" made from the four
anchor points is 100' on a side. I will have to look at the site and see if
that is possible.

Bill

Crazy George wrote:


Bill:

You need to enlist a little geometry and mechanical engineering. We like to
keep our top guys at 45 degrees or less (ground up to guy) where space
permits. The down force on the mast for each guy is then .707 of the guy
tension. As the guys get steeper, the down force on the mast becomes a
larger and larger portion of the total tension. So for a smaller
'footprint' with the guys near straight up, any side force on the guy from
wind or antenna tension becomes a larger down force on the mast. I need to
make drawings to clarify that point, so find someone mechanically inclined
to wave their hands and draw lines and make calculations for you.

As far as the stepladder on the roof, consider the average male is just
under 6' tall, with an 18" up reach. So he has to stand only 4 feet above
the mounting level of the base of the mast to erect it. A 5 foot stepladder
straddling the peak of most roofs is relatively stable if you are young,
limber and agile. Having the first (bottom) section SOLIDLY guyed is a
must. At least that's what I remember from the middle of the last century.

--
Crazy George
Remove N O and S P A M imbedded in return address
"zeno" wrote in message ...

Hi John,

For a 50' tall mast, what would you say would be the minimum acceptible

square

dimensions from vertices (on a flat plane with the base) of the guy wire

anchor

points?

Bill K6TAJ

John Moriarity wrote:


"zeno" wrote in message

...

How the heck did those TV crews of yesteryear erect 40+ foot
telescoping antenna masts sitting atop pointed roofs? Its not
exactly like you can set up a step ladder on such a roof to
get up the first 10 foot to pull up the rest of the sections.

That's exactly what we did! When you are
young and fearless and believe in your
personal immortality, it's amazing what
you can do ;-)

73, John - K6QQ

Dave Shrader wrote:

Only three guys are needed. Your 100 foot number may be in error.

100 feet would be the correct number if it was a two guy wire system.
Right? :-)

73, ac6xg

How about 75 feet between anchors in a three guy wire system?

zeno wrote:

Hi George,

A 45 degree angled guy from the top of a 50' tall mast will be out 50' from the
base of the mast. That would suggest that the "square" made from the four
anchor points is 100' on a side. I will have to look at the site and see if
that is possible.

Bill

Crazy George wrote:


Bill:

You need to enlist a little geometry and mechanical engineering. We like to
keep our top guys at 45 degrees or less (ground up to guy) where space
permits. The down force on the mast for each guy is then .707 of the guy
tension. As the guys get steeper, the down force on the mast becomes a
larger and larger portion of the total tension. So for a smaller
'footprint' with the guys near straight up, any side force on the guy from
wind or antenna tension becomes a larger down force on the mast. I need to
make drawings to clarify that point, so find someone mechanically inclined
to wave their hands and draw lines and make calculations for you.

As far as the stepladder on the roof, consider the average male is just
under 6' tall, with an 18" up reach. So he has to stand only 4 feet above
the mounting level of the base of the mast to erect it. A 5 foot stepladder
straddling the peak of most roofs is relatively stable if you are young,
limber and agile. Having the first (bottom) section SOLIDLY guyed is a
must. At least that's what I remember from the middle of the last century.

--
Crazy George
Remove N O and S P A M imbedded in return address
"zeno" wrote in message ...

Hi John,

For a 50' tall mast, what would you say would be the minimum acceptible

square

dimensions from vertices (on a flat plane with the base) of the guy wire

anchor

points?

Bill K6TAJ

John Moriarity wrote:


"zeno" wrote in message

...

How the heck did those TV crews of yesteryear erect 40+ foot
telescoping antenna masts sitting atop pointed roofs? Its not
exactly like you can set up a step ladder on such a roof to
get up the first 10 foot to pull up the rest of the sections.

That's exactly what we did! When you are
young and fearless and believe in your
personal immortality, it's amazing what
you can do ;-)

73, John - K6QQ

With four guys the distance between any two 180 degree opposing guys will be 100' at
the base level. That is why I said that four guys at 45 degree angle at the top of a
50' mast will make a square at the four anchor points and that square at the base
level is 100' on each side. I am thinking that 30 degrees at the top might be fine for
my project in which case a smaller square.

Bill - K6TAJ


Jim Kelley wrote:

Dave Shrader wrote:

Only three guys are needed. Your 100 foot number may be in error.

100 feet would be the correct number if it was a two guy wire system.
Right? :-)

73, ac6xg

How about 75 feet between anchors in a three guy wire system?

zeno wrote:

Hi George,

A 45 degree angled guy from the top of a 50' tall mast will be out 50' from the
base of the mast. That would suggest that the "square" made from the four
anchor points is 100' on a side. I will have to look at the site and see if
that is possible.

Bill

Crazy George wrote:


Bill:

You need to enlist a little geometry and mechanical engineering. We like to
keep our top guys at 45 degrees or less (ground up to guy) where space
permits. The down force on the mast for each guy is then .707 of the guy
tension. As the guys get steeper, the down force on the mast becomes a
larger and larger portion of the total tension. So for a smaller
'footprint' with the guys near straight up, any side force on the guy from
wind or antenna tension becomes a larger down force on the mast. I need to
make drawings to clarify that point, so find someone mechanically inclined
to wave their hands and draw lines and make calculations for you.

As far as the stepladder on the roof, consider the average male is just
under 6' tall, with an 18" up reach. So he has to stand only 4 feet above
the mounting level of the base of the mast to erect it. A 5 foot stepladder
straddling the peak of most roofs is relatively stable if you are young,
limber and agile. Having the first (bottom) section SOLIDLY guyed is a
must. At least that's what I remember from the middle of the last century.

--
Crazy George
Remove N O and S P A M imbedded in return address
"zeno" wrote in message ...

Hi John,

For a 50' tall mast, what would you say would be the minimum acceptible

square

dimensions from vertices (on a flat plane with the base) of the guy wire

anchor

points?

Bill K6TAJ

John Moriarity wrote:


"zeno" wrote in message

...

How the heck did those TV crews of yesteryear erect 40+ foot
telescoping antenna masts sitting atop pointed roofs? Its not
exactly like you can set up a step ladder on such a roof to
get up the first 10 foot to pull up the rest of the sections.

That's exactly what we did! When you are
young and fearless and believe in your
personal immortality, it's amazing what
you can do ;-)

73, John - K6QQ

Jim Kelley wrote:


Dave Shrader wrote:

Only three guys are needed. Your 100 foot number may be in error.


100 feet would be the correct number if it was a two guy wire system.
Right? :-)

73, ac6xg

Yep! And the guys would provide an unconditionally unstable system.

Bill, that's correct. But, most guying systems are only 3 wires on a 120
degree spread at 45 degrees from the anchor on the tower/mast. That
requires only 75 feet. A three wire system is a STABLE solution. A four
wire system is also a stable system.

BTW, I used to have a Rohn 25 system at 50 feet. Rohn recommended double
guying. First level at the 30 foot height. Second level just below the
rotator platform. Point I'm making is that one set of guys at the 50
foot level may not meet Zoning and Insurance safety requirements.

Deacon Dave, W1MCE

zeno wrote:

With four guys the distance between any two 180 degree opposing guys will be 100' at
the base level. That is why I said that four guys at 45 degree angle at the top of a
50' mast will make a square at the four anchor points and that square at the base
level is 100' on each side. I am thinking that 30 degrees at the top might be fine for
my project in which case a smaller square.

Bill - K6TAJ

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the info. I am recycling a 50' TV mast, and now that you mentioned the idea of
using 3 guy wires, it explains to me why the guy wire rings that came with this old mast
have an extra hole on one side (they give you a total of 5 holes). They were providing the
option for either 3 or 4 guy wires. On many roof peaks they just tied it to the corners of
the building thus using a 4 wire system. Since I will be putting this up in the middle of a
field for one of 5 masts to hold a 540' skywire loop, maybe I will just go ahead and use
three guy wires like you suggest since it is out in the middle of the orchard and not on a
four cornered roof.

In any case, I was previously in error when I said the side of the square at the base of a
4 guy wire 50' tall system was 100'. I meant that the diagonal of the square was 100',
making the sides of the square, as was suggested earlier in the thread by Crazy George, a
bit under 71' (100 divided by the square root of 2 which is 1.4142... or 100 times .707...

For the 3 wire guy system, I will just wing it and anchor the 3 guys in optimum position
considering the position of existing trees in the orchard.

Bill K6TAJ

Dave Shrader wrote:

Bill, that's correct. But, most guying systems are only 3 wires on a 120
degree spread at 45 degrees from the anchor on the tower/mast. That
requires only 75 feet. A three wire system is a STABLE solution. A four
wire system is also a stable system.

BTW, I used to have a Rohn 25 system at 50 feet. Rohn recommended double
guying. First level at the 30 foot height. Second level just below the
rotator platform. Point I'm making is that one set of guys at the 50
foot level may not meet Zoning and Insurance safety requirements.

Deacon Dave, W1MCE

zeno wrote:

With four guys the distance between any two 180 degree opposing guys will be 100' at
the base level. That is why I said that four guys at 45 degree angle at the top of a
50' mast will make a square at the four anchor points and that square at the base
level is 100' on each side. I am thinking that 30 degrees at the top might be fine for
my project in which case a smaller square.

Bill - K6TAJ

So wait a minute, the 3 guy wire system is not good then? Ok, I am back to
4 wires.....

OK, you can accuse me of flip flopping....I am just a normal human.....hi
hi...

Bill K6TAJ

Dave Shrader wrote:

Jim Kelley wrote:


Dave Shrader wrote:

Only three guys are needed. Your 100 foot number may be in error.


100 feet would be the correct number if it was a two guy wire system.
Right? :-)

73, ac6xg

Yep! And the guys would provide an unconditionally unstable system.

I notice that the local rental yard has a boom lift (Genie), I could just
throw a little more $ at this project and be up 40' hoisting and guiding
this already assembled mast into place (providing a hinge at the base
mount).

Before doing that I will check to see just how hard it would be to lift each
section up vertically by hand..... seems like lifting that last section with
40' of noodling extension might be tense. With the boom lift, two people
could do this easy one way or another, less tension and less cursing along
the way, plus the fun of playing with that boom lift.

Bill

zeno wrote:

Hi Gary,

Thanks for the thorough instructions. I am not sure I understand the pony
clamp, but I agree that I can see a problem trying to lift up the
combined weight of the last 4 of the 5 sections after the first 10 foot
section is in place. Where can I see an image of such a "pony clamp"? I
have two people trying to pull it up maybe it can be done by hand.

Bill

"Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr." wrote:

Hi Bill

After a serious fall a number of years ago, I am now terrified of
heights like you wouldn't believe.

Yet I am still able to put up 50 foot towers, push-ups and even
sectional guyed poles by myself with no problems.

On push-up poles, I lay them on the ground first, open them up, make
point to point guy ring measurements, mark the poles for their maximum
safe expansion and close the assembly back up and haul it up to the
roof.

The main body is guyed and finished off prior to doing anything else.
Using the formula to find the hypoteneuse the guys are marked for full
length, then remarked for each lifting stage of the operation.

The antenna or antennas are affixed to the innermost or highest part
of the mast, which is only extended at this time long enough to do
this operation. The ladder to reach them is set on the roof and tied
to the now rigid base mast section.

Before lifting, the guys for section one are clamped at their first
set of markings, which allows a little slack or you couldn't lift it
to the proper fixed height. After the clamps are in place, as you
lift the first section, the guys slide through the eyes until they
near the clamp. The mast is only lifted about 2 feet at a time and
the standoffs for the ladder line are installed or the coax affixed to
the mast with ties. Again it is lifted another 2 feet and a standoff
or tie or both are installed. Repeated until you reach your 10 foot
marking and this top section is then locked down solid.

Now clamps are installed to the guys for section two to the first
marking, the clamps for section one are loosened and clamps installed
on the second marking for the upper guys.
Here is where it helps to have 3 or 4 extra helpers to feed guys and
keep them fairly taught. But if you don't have them, the pole is not
going to fall further than the next set of clamps on the guys, or
about a 2 to 3 foot lean at this early stage, the lean gets less as
the guys get longer.

The second mast is pushed up, usually by bouncing it so the first
clamps of the section one guys can slide on the cables but still have
enough tension to hold the antenna upright for you.
Again, working in 2 foot increments, the standoffs and/or ties are
installed.

By the time you get section two up to maximum height, you will not be
able to lift the remaining sections by hand. It's not the weight,
it's the tension on the guys and floating clamps that are your enemy.
If your familiar with how a Pony clamp set works, I had a similar tool
made for lifting push-pole sections. A clamp is affixed to pole two
and to the main mast in two places. I simply turn the handle to lift
the pole about 8 inches, then lock it down, crank the tool back down,
let it catch the pole and unlock the mast and crank it up another 8
inches and repeat until I get to the two foot point. Then I install
the standoffs and/or ties or both. Then repeat again.

Once the whole assembly is at full height, the guys are then tensioned
to their proper rating. If your guys are NOT equal distance from the
tower, you will have to make adjustments to the tension settings to
maintain a perfectly vertical pole.

Many of your guys themselves can be used as antennas if you plan for
this before setting up the system.

I put up an 80 foot vertical single handedly using only 1 inch 10 foot
sections of interconnecting pipes. We had intended going up 100 feet,
but the pipe was not strong enough to hold itself without telescoping
and splitting, so we halted at 80 feet. It stood for 9 years
untouched and without problems. Taking it down was really simple.
One hit to the lower pipe with a baseball bat and the whole thing came
straight down on itself and finally stopped dropping at about 15 feet
of height and leaned over, the antenna did not touch the ground and
was salvagable.

TTUL
Gary

Jim Kelley wrote in message ...
Dave Shrader wrote:

Only three guys are needed. Your 100 foot number may be in error.

100 feet would be the correct number if it was a two guy wire system.
Right? :-)

73, ac6xg

You just HAD to do that din ya?!

w3rv

zeno wrote in message ...
Hi Gary,

Thanks for the thorough instructions. I am not sure I understand the pony
clamp, but I agree that I can see a problem trying to lift up the
combined weight of the last 4 of the 5 sections after the first 10 foot
section is in place. Where can I see an image of such a "pony clamp"?

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...1.LZZZZZZZ.gif

Home Depot.

w3rv

"zeno" wrote in message ...
I notice that the local rental yard has a boom lift (Genie), I could just
throw a little more $ at this project and be up 40' hoisting and guiding
this already assembled mast into place (providing a hinge at the base
mount).

Now you're talkin', Bill! ;-) Just don't expect that lift to have much
work left in it when it's mostly extended, especially with two men in the
basket.

Just a note on high winds effect on light gear: It might save you some
repairs to add a very light guy wire in the general direction that summer
thnderstorms throw line squalls at you. Add that as near to the antenna
itself as possible. After seeing one or two storms a summer shake some
elements pretty hard, I noticed that our 50-60mph line squalls _always_ blew
in the same direction (within 10 degrees every time). Adding one single
(high) guy wire fixed that problem, as it stopped the whip-sawing action
that a good blow will do to any light gear, no matter how well it's mast is
guyed.

73's

Jack
Virginia Beach VA

Don't laugh, but I did put up a mast with only two guys, and I don't mean the guys
that helped me in my madness. I was thinking that the antenna wire would act as the
third guy. Bad idea! OK, dumb. Now I am having to do a work-around pulling up another
rope taped to the one rope I was going to use to hoist the antenna, so I will have an
extra rope that I can use as the third guy in addition to the rope that would hoist
up the antenna. I will be happier when I am out of all this hot water.

Bill

Brian Kelly wrote:

Jim Kelley wrote in message ...
Dave Shrader wrote:

Only three guys are needed. Your 100 foot number may be in error.

100 feet would be the correct number if it was a two guy wire system.
Right? :-)

73, ac6xg

You just HAD to do that din ya?!

w3rv

Oh, those "pony clamps", I have a shop full of them, but I don't quite yet get
how to use this tool to pull up a section of mast which is nearly 2 inches in
diameter, although I do see how such a device might be something related to the
problem, I will have to think about this. Maybe put this clamp on a 15' piece
of pipe down to the ground and use that ratchet section somehow...?

Other related tools around the farm: the "tractor" jack, you know the kind of
jack you use to lift the side of a building from the outside, or that same jack
with a short twist of chain used to pull up old metal fence posts out of the
dry ground. These jacks are heavy and about 4' tall, but theoretically there
could be a way to employ it to yank up a section of the telescoping mast, but
the whole image of this seems awkward to me.

Another related, antiquated, and obscure tool would be a type of jack that is
used when pulling a long pipe out of a well. It clamps around the pipe as it is
being pulled up and has a rachet so that the pipe cannot slip back down the
well while you adjust your grip for the next pull. Each 20' section of pipe is
pulled up and disconnected so the next section can be pulled up. Unfortunately
I sold this at a local flea market years ago thinking I would never need it
again. Truth be told, I didn't even know what the thing was at the time, it was
something in the barn when I bought this place in '74, so when I cleaned up the
barn I unloaded a bunch of stuff. The old timer who bought it at the flea
market told me what is was for.....D'oh!!!! One man's junk=another man's
treasure..... maybe I can track him down and buy it back....it is probably
lying around in another barn somewhere.....


Meanwhile that 2HP electric submersible pump down 240' has been working for at
least 40++ years! Had to have it pulled up once to replace the wires. They
don't make things like that anymore!...you should have seen this thing, all
brass pump section 4' long, and then the 2hp motor section which seems
indestructible, knock on wood....

Still have the old wire (which was replaced) out in the barn, three 240'
lengths of solid #10 insulated copper (with a few places where the insulation
broke down)....now there is an antenna project waiting in the wings.....either
that or some nice pennies at the recycling yard....


Bill K6TAJ

Brian Kelly wrote:

zeno wrote in message ...
Hi Gary,

Thanks for the thorough instructions. I am not sure I understand the pony
clamp, but I agree that I can see a problem trying to lift up the
combined weight of the last 4 of the 5 sections after the first 10 foot
section is in place. Where can I see an image of such a "pony clamp"?

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...1.LZZZZZZZ.gif

Home Depot.

w3rv

Dave Shrader wrote:

Jim Kelley wrote:


Dave Shrader wrote:

Only three guys are needed. Your 100 foot number may be in error.


100 feet would be the correct number if it was a two guy wire system.
Right? :-)

73, ac6xg

Yep! And the guys would provide an unconditionally unstable system.

So then what you're saying is that it's not twice as good as a one guy
wire system?

73, Jim AC6XG

Hi Bill

I was using the Pony Clamp as an example only.
It is a woodworking tool used to hold boards together for gluing or
whatever.
The way the Pony Clamp device grips the pipe on the floating end is
roughly similar to the way the twin grips grip the mast for more
secure lifting than using a pair of gloves and brute strength.

A fellow ham used a similar technique, He made a small platform at the
top of the lowest mast that supported a simple hydraulic jack.
The piston of the jack was used to elevate the upper masts about 6 to
8 inches at a time, also using a holding device on the upper mast
being raised similar to the Pony Clamp holding device.

However, to make them removable, instead of being a few pieces of
steel plate with a hole in them. They are more like a pair of "F"
shaped plates that lock on top of each other.

The idea is to be able to hold the mast being lifted securely so it
doesn't slide back down.

An alternative of course is to THREAD each section of the mast and
install external pulleys and internal glides and make it a crank up
tower.

TTUL
Gary

Hi Bill

Tilt up is a GOOD way to go, if your pole is strong enough!

Did you know that you can get heavy guage aluminum light standards
from your local street department that have been hit by cars. Or sign
masts from local sign companies for a very fair price? (Often the
price is the price of the metal as scrap).

At my old house, I had a 45 foot tilt up light standard. I mounted it
near the eave of the house using a steel standoff to lock it to (even
though it didn't really need it). A small boat winch was mounted to
the roofing rafters and the cable fed through the facia board to the
winch.
On top of this 45 light standard, I added an additional 10 foot
section of mast tubing.
Had no trouble at all putting it up or taking it down and it needed no
guys at all.

TTUL
Gary