Omni
 

Anyone remember the 3or4 band antenna, omni that needed to be right on the
ground. I think it had 3 traps in it. Might have been for 10, 15 and maybe
40 or 20 meters.

It might have been a crushcraft or alpha. has to be about 30 or 40 year old
antenna.

Anyone remember that old antenna? What was its manufacture? Model ?

thanks if anyone can remember.

Omni
 

On Fri, 02 Mar 2012 22:44:07 -0500, Tuuk wrote:

Anyone remember the 3or4 band antenna, omni that needed to be right on
the ground. I think it had 3 traps in it. Might have been for 10, 15 and
maybe 40 or 20 meters.

It might have been a crushcraft or alpha. has to be about 30 or 40 year
old antenna.

Anyone remember that old antenna? What was its manufacture? Model ?

thanks if anyone can remember.

Here's a starting place:

http://www.dxengineering.com/default.asp?DeptID=22

Omni
 

"dave" wrote in message
m...

On Fri, 02 Mar 2012 22:44:07 -0500, Tuuk wrote:

Anyone remember the 3or4 band antenna, omni that needed to be right on
the ground. I think it had 3 traps in it. Might have been for 10, 15 and
maybe 40 or 20 meters.

It might have been a crushcraft or alpha. has to be about 30 or 40 year
old antenna.

Anyone remember that old antenna? What was its manufacture? Model ?

thanks if anyone can remember.

#Here's a starting place:

#http://www.dxengineering.com/default.asp?DeptID=22
-
And I might add that dxengineering has telescoping tubing that can be used
to construct verticals or beams. 6 foot sections fit nicely in a shipping
box.

Omni
 

Thanks for the reply

This antenna is about 22 ft long, no gnd planes, I think it has three
traps.

The base has the simple regular 2 ubolt connection to the pipe and the 52ohm
coax hook up.

This antenna must be 30 years old or more. I have seen them at many a
hamfest , was popular around here way back when.

My wondering is the lengths between each trap, it is telescopic aluminum and
it is in pieces. Needs all new hose clamps for each tapered slit connection.

I have seen it before online but do you think I can find it now? I thought
it was crushcraft or delta antennas. I will find it and post it.. Jeesh,
just cant think of it.

Thanks
73s





"Wayne" wrote in message
...


"dave" wrote in message
m...

On Fri, 02 Mar 2012 22:44:07 -0500, Tuuk wrote:

Anyone remember the 3or4 band antenna, omni that needed to be right on
the ground. I think it had 3 traps in it. Might have been for 10, 15 and
maybe 40 or 20 meters.

It might have been a crushcraft or alpha. has to be about 30 or 40 year
old antenna.

Anyone remember that old antenna? What was its manufacture? Model ?

thanks if anyone can remember.

#Here's a starting place:

#http://www.dxengineering.com/default.asp?DeptID=22
-
And I might add that dxengineering has telescoping tubing that can be used
to construct verticals or beams. 6 foot sections fit nicely in a
shipping box.

Omni
 

Come on hams

You know the antenna I am talking about. I seen its specs online about 10
years ago. It is a single omni aluminum antenna with three traps in it.
About 19 or 21 foot long. Made for ground use, no ground planes or radials,
and old style. This is an older style antenna. Regular coax hook up. I need
to remember the name of this antenna so I can make sure its lenghth and
specs are correct. Gotta be an old ham out there that remembers these old
style omni antenna.
Thanks




" Tuuk" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the reply

This antenna is about 22 ft long, no gnd planes, I think it has three
traps.

The base has the simple regular 2 ubolt connection to the pipe and the
52ohm coax hook up.

This antenna must be 30 years old or more. I have seen them at many a
hamfest , was popular around here way back when.

My wondering is the lengths between each trap, it is telescopic aluminum
and it is in pieces. Needs all new hose clamps for each tapered slit
connection.

I have seen it before online but do you think I can find it now? I thought
it was crushcraft or delta antennas. I will find it and post it.. Jeesh,
just cant think of it.

Thanks
73s





"Wayne" wrote in message
...


"dave" wrote in message
m...

On Fri, 02 Mar 2012 22:44:07 -0500, Tuuk wrote:

Anyone remember the 3or4 band antenna, omni that needed to be right on
the ground. I think it had 3 traps in it. Might have been for 10, 15 and
maybe 40 or 20 meters.

It might have been a crushcraft or alpha. has to be about 30 or 40 year
old antenna.

Anyone remember that old antenna? What was its manufacture? Model ?

thanks if anyone can remember.

#Here's a starting place:

#http://www.dxengineering.com/default.asp?DeptID=22
-
And I might add that dxengineering has telescoping tubing that can be
used to construct verticals or beams. 6 foot sections fit nicely in a
shipping box.

Omni
 

On 3/8/2012 8:08 AM, Tuuk wrote:
Come on hams

You know the antenna I am talking about. I seen its specs online about
10 years ago. It is a single omni aluminum antenna with three traps in
it. About 19 or 21 foot long. Made for ground use, no ground planes or
radials, and old style. This is an older style antenna. Regular coax
hook up. I need to remember the name of this antenna so I can make sure
its lenghth and specs are correct. Gotta be an old ham out there that
remembers these old style omni antenna.
Thanks

There were many versions of trapped verticals sold in the last 30
years. Without pictures of the base or traps, hope of identification is
fairly slim.
Sounds like the typical Cushcraft or Hustler. Or at least those were
the most popular versions.
Also, ground mounted verticals will still need radials if the antenna
is to live up to it's expectations. And there is nothing to stop one
from using one elevated, if one uses resonant radials for each band to
be used.
Look at the tubing and see if it has any marks on it from it's previous
assembly. Often, the clamping will leave marks on the tubing, and one
that was used for a long time will usually show discoloration between
the tubing exposed to the air, and the part that was covered due to
the overlap.

Omni
 

On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 08:51:20 -0600, NM5K wrote:

Also, ground mounted verticals will still need radials if the antenna is
to live up to it's expectations. And there is nothing to stop one from
using one elevated, if one uses resonant radials for each band to be
used.

My GAP Titan DX requires no radials; it is a center fed, asymmetric
vertical dipole.

The OP should try using Bing or Yahoo. Here's the Yahoo Ham Antenna group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ham-an...guid=353505133

Omni
 

On 3/8/2012 11:09 AM, dave wrote:
On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 08:51:20 -0600, NM5K wrote:

Also, ground mounted verticals will still need radials if the antenna is
to live up to it's expectations. And there is nothing to stop one from
using one elevated, if one uses resonant radials for each band to be
used.

My GAP Titan DX requires no radials; it is a center fed, asymmetric
vertical dipole.


Well, ground mounted monopoles in his case..
Being a "complete" antenna, it's true that the center fed vertical does
not require radials for proper operation, but you would still likely
show lower ground losses if it were over radials.
For instance, broadcast stations that use 1/2 wave radiators still
use a set of radials under the antenna. Usually 1/2 wave radials, when
used with a 1/2 wave radiator.
You will still see some ground loss with the ground mounted 1/2 waves
over poor ground, but being as the max current point is 1/4 up from the
ground, it's not near as severe as the ground mounted 1/4 wave where
maximum current is at the base.

Omni
 

Thanks for the ideas

When I find it I will post it.

73s





"NM5K" wrote in message
...
On 3/8/2012 11:09 AM, dave wrote:
On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 08:51:20 -0600, NM5K wrote:

Also, ground mounted verticals will still need radials if the antenna is
to live up to it's expectations. And there is nothing to stop one from
using one elevated, if one uses resonant radials for each band to be
used.

My GAP Titan DX requires no radials; it is a center fed, asymmetric
vertical dipole.


Well, ground mounted monopoles in his case..
Being a "complete" antenna, it's true that the center fed vertical does
not require radials for proper operation, but you would still likely
show lower ground losses if it were over radials.
For instance, broadcast stations that use 1/2 wave radiators still
use a set of radials under the antenna. Usually 1/2 wave radials, when
used with a 1/2 wave radiator.
You will still see some ground loss with the ground mounted 1/2 waves
over poor ground, but being as the max current point is 1/4 up from the
ground, it's not near as severe as the ground mounted 1/4 wave where
maximum current is at the base.

Omni
 

On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 12:35:58 -0600, NM5K wrote:

On 3/8/2012 11:09 AM, dave wrote:
On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 08:51:20 -0600, NM5K wrote:

Also, ground mounted verticals will still need radials if the antenna
is to live up to it's expectations. And there is nothing to stop one
from using one elevated, if one uses resonant radials for each band to
be used.

My GAP Titan DX requires no radials; it is a center fed, asymmetric
vertical dipole.


Well, ground mounted monopoles in his case.. Being a "complete" antenna,
it's true that the center fed vertical does not require radials for
proper operation, but you would still likely show lower ground losses if
it were over radials. For instance, broadcast stations that use 1/2 wave
radiators still use a set of radials under the antenna. Usually 1/2 wave
radials, when used with a 1/2 wave radiator.
You will still see some ground loss with the ground mounted 1/2 waves
over poor ground, but being as the max current point is 1/4 up from the
ground, it's not near as severe as the ground mounted 1/4 wave where
maximum current is at the base.

I don't think a ground screen is needed if you are 1/2 wave.

If you elevate a short vertical you only need a few "ground" radials
(think CB groundplane antenna), btw. My whole transmit antenna system
floats on my roof. The only "ground" is the panel where the RF goes
through the wall. I receive on a balanced 30m horizontal loop, also
floating except for the point of entry. I have an automatic tuner at the
feedpoint under the eave by my kitchen window. (FWIW) I have lived here
14 years and have never seen lightning at the shack.

Omni
 

On Fri, 09 Mar 2012 09:58:45 -0600, dave wrote:

On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 12:35:58 -0600, NM5K wrote:

On 3/8/2012 11:09 AM, dave wrote:
On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 08:51:20 -0600, NM5K wrote:

Also, ground mounted verticals will still need radials if the antenna
is to live up to it's expectations. And there is nothing to stop one
from using one elevated, if one uses resonant radials for each band
to be used.

My GAP Titan DX requires no radials; it is a center fed, asymmetric
vertical dipole.


Well, ground mounted monopoles in his case.. Being a "complete"
antenna, it's true that the center fed vertical does not require
radials for proper operation, but you would still likely show lower
ground losses if it were over radials. For instance, broadcast stations
that use 1/2 wave radiators still use a set of radials under the
antenna. Usually 1/2 wave radials, when used with a 1/2 wave radiator.
You will still see some ground loss with the ground mounted 1/2 waves
over poor ground, but being as the max current point is 1/4 up from the
ground, it's not near as severe as the ground mounted 1/4 wave where
maximum current is at the base.

I don't think a ground screen is needed if you are 1/2 wave.

If you elevate a short vertical you only need a few "ground" radials
(think CB groundplane antenna), btw. My whole transmit antenna system
floats on my roof. The only "ground" is the panel where the RF goes
through the wall. I receive on a balanced 30m horizontal loop, also
floating except for the point of entry. I have an automatic tuner at the
feedpoint under the eave by my kitchen window. (FWIW) I have lived here
14 years and have never seen lightning at the shack.

WABC on the rocks

http://www.musicradio77.com/transm.html

Omni
 

On Fri, 09 Mar 2012 10:00:10 -0600, dave wrote:

On Fri, 09 Mar 2012 09:58:45 -0600, dave wrote:

On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 12:35:58 -0600, NM5K wrote:

On 3/8/2012 11:09 AM, dave wrote:
On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 08:51:20 -0600, NM5K wrote:

Also, ground mounted verticals will still need radials if the
antenna is to live up to it's expectations. And there is nothing to
stop one from using one elevated, if one uses resonant radials for
each band to be used.

My GAP Titan DX requires no radials; it is a center fed, asymmetric
vertical dipole.


Well, ground mounted monopoles in his case.. Being a "complete"
antenna, it's true that the center fed vertical does not require
radials for proper operation, but you would still likely show lower
ground losses if it were over radials. For instance, broadcast
stations that use 1/2 wave radiators still use a set of radials under
the antenna. Usually 1/2 wave radials, when used with a 1/2 wave
radiator. You will still see some ground loss with the ground mounted
1/2 waves over poor ground, but being as the max current point is 1/4
up from the ground, it's not near as severe as the ground mounted 1/4
wave where maximum current is at the base.

I don't think a ground screen is needed if you are 1/2 wave.

If you elevate a short vertical you only need a few "ground" radials
(think CB groundplane antenna), btw. My whole transmit antenna system
floats on my roof. The only "ground" is the panel where the RF goes
through the wall. I receive on a balanced 30m horizontal loop, also
floating except for the point of entry. I have an automatic tuner at
the feedpoint under the eave by my kitchen window. (FWIW) I have lived
here 14 years and have never seen lightning at the shack.

WABC on the rocks

http://www.musicradio77.com/transm.html

Bird's Eye View: http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?
v=2&cp=40.880654933621~-74.069307757843&style=a&lvl=15&sp=Point.40.8806549 33621_

Omni
 

On 3/9/2012 9:58 AM, dave wrote:


I don't think a ground screen is needed if you are 1/2 wave.

It's not required to provide the lower half of the antenna, but
they will still reduce ground losses if the antenna is ground mounted.



If you elevate a short vertical you only need a few "ground" radials
(think CB groundplane antenna), btw. My whole transmit antenna system
floats on my roof. The only "ground" is the panel where the RF goes
through the wall. I receive on a balanced 30m horizontal loop, also
floating except for the point of entry. I have an automatic tuner at the
feedpoint under the eave by my kitchen window. (FWIW) I have lived here
14 years and have never seen lightning at the shack.

The number of elevated radials needed to equal certain number on
the ground will depend on the wavelength above ground.
IE: to equal 120 1/4 WL radials on the ground, at 1/8 WL, you will need
appx 60 of them. At 1/4 WL, appx 8-10.. At 1/2 WL, 3-4..
And if the radiator is short, the radial system is a bit more
critical than with a full size 1/4 wave radiator.

Omni
 

On 3/9/2012 10:13 AM, dave wrote:


WABC on the rocks

http://www.musicradio77.com/transm.html

I bet their halfwave is sitting on a bed of 1/2 WL radials.
Most 1/2 wave BC antennas tend to use 1/2 wave radials I'm fairly sure.
Part of this is due to FCC requirements for stability in performance,
etc..
A 1/2 WL radiator on the ground is not immune to ground losses.
It just suffers less than the 1/4 WL.
And a 1/2 wave elevated, really should be decoupled from the feed line
for best performance. Of course, it's not required, but they will
perform better if you use decoupling. Less skewing of the pattern
off the horizon, from feed line currents.

Omni
 

Found it

Actually, I found some very old schematics , the paper is yellowish tea
like. Japanese I think . Hidaka.

http://www.hidaka.com/e-a_multi-v.html#VS-41W

I am pretty sure the one I have now is the VS-80KR.

I am going to clean it up and try it out. Don't know what will happen when I
put it on a 50 ft tower in these windy days. Will have to calculate the
length of gnd planes. I suspect they will be too long.

Any recommendations?

Thanks

73




"NM5K" wrote in message
...
On 3/9/2012 9:58 AM, dave wrote:


I don't think a ground screen is needed if you are 1/2 wave.

It's not required to provide the lower half of the antenna, but
they will still reduce ground losses if the antenna is ground mounted.



If you elevate a short vertical you only need a few "ground" radials
(think CB groundplane antenna), btw. My whole transmit antenna system
floats on my roof. The only "ground" is the panel where the RF goes
through the wall. I receive on a balanced 30m horizontal loop, also
floating except for the point of entry. I have an automatic tuner at the
feedpoint under the eave by my kitchen window. (FWIW) I have lived here
14 years and have never seen lightning at the shack.

The number of elevated radials needed to equal certain number on
the ground will depend on the wavelength above ground.
IE: to equal 120 1/4 WL radials on the ground, at 1/8 WL, you will need
appx 60 of them. At 1/4 WL, appx 8-10.. At 1/2 WL, 3-4..
And if the radiator is short, the radial system is a bit more
critical than with a full size 1/4 wave radiator.

Omni
 

On 3/9/2012 3:09 PM, Tuuk wrote:
Found it

Actually, I found some very old schematics , the paper is yellowish tea
like. Japanese I think . Hidaka.

http://www.hidaka.com/e-a_multi-v.html#VS-41W

I am pretty sure the one I have now is the VS-80KR.

I am going to clean it up and try it out. Don't know what will happen
when I put it on a 50 ft tower in these windy days. Will have to
calculate the length of gnd planes. I suspect they will be too long.

Any recommendations?

Not really, as the antenna in the picture seems to use
loaded/trapped radials. So you will need their assembly
specs if you have those and plan to use them.
Or maybe assemble them and try to tune them.
If elevated, any full size wire radials will need to be resonant.
If ground mounted, there is no need to tune radials laying on or in
the ground.

Omni
 

I don't have the ground planes for this antenna, just the vertical main
mast.

Used on the ground would be difficult because I am sandwiched between houses
all around me.

I wonder would the mismatch be so significant that the efficientcy of the
antenna be almost completely lost? If used with a good tuner would the
radiation resistence of the antenna become totally innefficient if I were to
completely ground it out through the tower? Nice idea having a omni all hf
band antenna. I run barefoot anyway.

I think I will try it out anyway, I have one of those MFJ old manual tuners
and am sure it would match the feedline coax with the antenna to the load.
Just curious how efficient the antenna would radiate. Being 50 foot above
the ground, approx 500 ft above sea level anyway. I think the deciding
factor is that there is nothing on top of the tower now anyway.

Thanks

73





"NM5K" wrote in message
...
On 3/9/2012 3:09 PM, Tuuk wrote:
Found it

Actually, I found some very old schematics , the paper is yellowish tea
like. Japanese I think . Hidaka.

http://www.hidaka.com/e-a_multi-v.html#VS-41W

I am pretty sure the one I have now is the VS-80KR.

I am going to clean it up and try it out. Don't know what will happen
when I put it on a 50 ft tower in these windy days. Will have to
calculate the length of gnd planes. I suspect they will be too long.

Any recommendations?

Not really, as the antenna in the picture seems to use
loaded/trapped radials. So you will need their assembly
specs if you have those and plan to use them.
Or maybe assemble them and try to tune them.
If elevated, any full size wire radials will need to be resonant.
If ground mounted, there is no need to tune radials laying on or in
the ground.

Omni
 

On 3/10/2012 8:21 PM, Tuuk wrote:
I don't have the ground planes for this antenna, just the vertical main
mast.

Used on the ground would be difficult because I am sandwiched between
houses all around me.

I wonder would the mismatch be so significant that the efficientcy of
the antenna be almost completely lost? If used with a good tuner would
the radiation resistence of the antenna become totally innefficient if I
were to completely ground it out through the tower? Nice idea having a
omni all hf band antenna. I run barefoot anyway.

I think I will try it out anyway, I have one of those MFJ old manual
tuners and am sure it would match the feedline coax with the antenna to
the load. Just curious how efficient the antenna would radiate. Being 50
foot above the ground, approx 500 ft above sea level anyway. I think the
deciding factor is that there is nothing on top of the tower now anyway.


No telling how it will tune. If you use no radials, the whole
structure will be acting as the antenna. Radiator, and tower.
Results could be all over the map depending on the band. It would
be better to have at least one resonant elevated radial per band to be
used.

Omni
 

Thanks for the information.
I think it is very top heavy, and up on a 50ft tower will just wait for a
good wind to bring it down.

While I see no ground plane brackets with this, there is no way to put gnd
planes at each section.

Haven't done nothing yet, maybe wont. Maybe will.

Thanks for the information.

73s





"NM5K" wrote in message
...
On 3/10/2012 8:21 PM, Tuuk wrote:
I don't have the ground planes for this antenna, just the vertical main
mast.

Used on the ground would be difficult because I am sandwiched between
houses all around me.

I wonder would the mismatch be so significant that the efficientcy of
the antenna be almost completely lost? If used with a good tuner would
the radiation resistence of the antenna become totally innefficient if I
were to completely ground it out through the tower? Nice idea having a
omni all hf band antenna. I run barefoot anyway.

I think I will try it out anyway, I have one of those MFJ old manual
tuners and am sure it would match the feedline coax with the antenna to
the load. Just curious how efficient the antenna would radiate. Being 50
foot above the ground, approx 500 ft above sea level anyway. I think the
deciding factor is that there is nothing on top of the tower now anyway.


No telling how it will tune. If you use no radials, the whole
structure will be acting as the antenna. Radiator, and tower.
Results could be all over the map depending on the band. It would
be better to have at least one resonant elevated radial per band to be
used.