Stacking Winegard HD-6065P antennas
 

On 1/9/2014 11:00 AM, John S wrote:
On 1/9/2014 10:53 AM, boomer wrote:


We aren't talking multiple arrays in large places. Of course multiple
speakers will provide more gain than one speaker. And horn speakers
get
their "gain" by directing more energy in one direction; there is a
loss
of signal in other directions. It has nothing to do with "impedance
matching to the air" (there is no such thing).

The laws of physics say it is impossible to create energy out of
nothing,
which is what you would be doing if you quadrupled the power (6db
gain)
by placing two speakers in phase. If you "measured" this, you need a
new meter.

I would love to tear apart your "reference".

Non believer in facts. If you don't believe you should do tests, like
me.

I'll skip the horn for now..

If you can't believe two speakers will move TWICE the air doubling
intensity, I don't know what else to say, except test yourself.

Greg


I have (I was an EE major). You can't create energy from nothing. The
laws of physics don't allow it. And I currently have a business which
deals with home entertainment systems.

At MOST, two speakers in phase can move twice the air. No more, and in
reality, because of inefficiencies, it will be less.

I hate to question the law of conservation of energy at all, but I must
say that there could be more energy delivered from two 8 ohm speakers in
parallel than a single speaker powered by the same amplifier. Many
amplifiers have 4 ohm outputs. So, you see the possibility. You would be
delivering the same energy to both speakers as was delivered to one.

Of course for those who believe in magical energy production, no
reasoning will help.

I personally have a Crown 810 powering a couple of AR SRT380s. The
amplifier has 4 ohm outputs and the speakers are 4 ohms. There is
nothing to be done to increase sound power except buy more efficient
folded horn types. I have neither the space nor money to do so. However,
at 420 watts rms per channel as it is now, I really don't require more
power. Jimmy Hendrix sounds just fine to me. :-)


I would hate to have you as my neighbor. I would have to call the police
on you.

We live in the North country close to the border. Our home, as are all,
is heavily insulated. I run the music loud as I want without bothering
the neighbours. The high wattage rating per channel is mostly just for
the incredibly low terminal impedance. This makes for very good fidelity
on high power low frequency. It is called inertial dampening. You have
to run large diameter wire to keep this all working. I have the speakers
hooked up with #10 wire. I checked performance of the speakers for this
type wire by running one speaker with #16 lamp cord which I had been
using and the other one hooked up with #10. I then switched to mono on
the preamp. Using the balance control clearly showed a very noticeable
improvement. I was told to use large dia wire to keep the resistance
very low. I first thought this was really over-kill but by experiment I
found that my advisor was correct. The impedance from the amp and wiring
should be in the very low milliohms to prevent inertial overshoot.
Purple Haze definitely sounded better :-)

PS some have actually used #00 wire to their speakers. Without
experimenting myself I feel by guessing that this is over-kill. I could
be wrong, I was before.

Stacking Winegard HD-6065P antennas
 

In message , boomer
writes


We aren't talking multiple arrays in large places. Of course multiple
speakers will provide more gain than one speaker. And horn speakers get
their "gain" by directing more energy in one direction; there is a loss
of signal in other directions. It has nothing to do with "impedance
matching to the air" (there is no such thing).

The laws of physics say it is impossible to create energy out of
nothing,
which is what you would be doing if you quadrupled the power (6db gain)
by placing two speakers in phase. If you "measured" this, you need a
new meter.

I would love to tear apart your "reference".

Non believer in facts. If you don't believe you should do tests, like me.

I'll skip the horn for now..

If you can't believe two speakers will move TWICE the air doubling
intensity, I don't know what else to say, except test yourself.

Greg


I have (I was an EE major). You can't create energy from nothing. The
laws of physics don't allow it. And I currently have a business which
deals with home entertainment systems.

At MOST, two speakers in phase can move twice the air. No more, and in
reality, because of inefficiencies, it will be less.

I hate to question the law of conservation of energy at all, but I must
say that there could be more energy delivered from two 8 ohm speakers
in parallel than a single speaker powered by the same amplifier. Many
amplifiers have 4 ohm outputs. So, you see the possibility. You would
be delivering the same energy to both speakers as was delivered to one.

Of course for those who believe in magical energy production, no
reasoning will help.

I personally have a Crown 810 powering a couple of AR SRT380s. The
amplifier has 4 ohm outputs and the speakers are 4 ohms. There is
nothing to be done to increase sound power except buy more efficient
folded horn types. I have neither the space nor money to do so.
However, at 420 watts rms per channel as it is now, I really don't
require more power. Jimmy Hendrix sounds just fine to me. :-)

So, matching output impedance of amplifier to speaker will result in
maximum energy transfer and using the most efficient speakers will
result in of course more acoustic energy produced. All we are talking
about here is not wasting energy in poor efficiency systems.

If I understand things correctly, I don't think that many audio
amplifiers have an output impedance as high as 4 ohms. It's generally a
fraction of an ohm. However, an amplifier will be designed to deliver a
given power into a given load with a specified maximum distortion.
--
Ian

Stacking Winegard HD-6065P antennas
 

On 1/9/2014 2:37 PM, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , boomer
writes


We aren't talking multiple arrays in large places. Of course multiple
speakers will provide more gain than one speaker. And horn
speakers get
their "gain" by directing more energy in one direction; there is a
loss
of signal in other directions. It has nothing to do with "impedance
matching to the air" (there is no such thing).

The laws of physics say it is impossible to create energy out of
nothing,
which is what you would be doing if you quadrupled the power (6db
gain)
by placing two speakers in phase. If you "measured" this, you need a
new meter.

I would love to tear apart your "reference".

Non believer in facts. If you don't believe you should do tests,
like me.

I'll skip the horn for now..

If you can't believe two speakers will move TWICE the air doubling
intensity, I don't know what else to say, except test yourself.

Greg


I have (I was an EE major). You can't create energy from nothing. The
laws of physics don't allow it. And I currently have a business which
deals with home entertainment systems.

At MOST, two speakers in phase can move twice the air. No more, and in
reality, because of inefficiencies, it will be less.

I hate to question the law of conservation of energy at all, but I
must say that there could be more energy delivered from two 8 ohm
speakers in parallel than a single speaker powered by the same
amplifier. Many amplifiers have 4 ohm outputs. So, you see the
possibility. You would be delivering the same energy to both speakers
as was delivered to one.

Of course for those who believe in magical energy production, no
reasoning will help.

I personally have a Crown 810 powering a couple of AR SRT380s. The
amplifier has 4 ohm outputs and the speakers are 4 ohms. There is
nothing to be done to increase sound power except buy more efficient
folded horn types. I have neither the space nor money to do so.
However, at 420 watts rms per channel as it is now, I really don't
require more power. Jimmy Hendrix sounds just fine to me. :-)

So, matching output impedance of amplifier to speaker will result in
maximum energy transfer and using the most efficient speakers will
result in of course more acoustic energy produced. All we are talking
about here is not wasting energy in poor efficiency systems.

If I understand things correctly, I don't think that many audio
amplifiers have an output impedance as high as 4 ohms. It's generally a
fraction of an ohm. However, an amplifier will be designed to deliver a
given power into a given load with a specified maximum distortion.

That too is my understanding. I believe that connecting a 4 or 2 ohm
speaker to an amplifier rated at 8 ohms would likely cause distortion.
For those still following this thread here is a simple explanation of
inertial dampening.
http://www.crownaudio.com/media/pdf/...ing_factor.pdf

The output impedance of the Crown 810 is rated at less than 10
milliohms. This is an important specification when you are wanting to
hear very little distortion. There of course other important factors
including Frequency Response, Phase Response, Signal-to-Noise Ratio,
Total Harmonic Distortion (THD), Intermodulation Distortion (IMD),
Damping Factor, Slew Rate, Output Power, and Crosstalk. And of course
then there is the whole science of speakers. Amplifier design is much
easier to understand. I cannot really get my head around all the factors
that come into play designing speakers. It is complicated enough to
almost appear to be magic to me.

Stacking Winegard HD-6065P antennas
 

boomer wrote:
On 1/9/2014 11:00 AM, John S wrote:
On 1/9/2014 10:53 AM, boomer wrote:


We aren't talking multiple arrays in large places. Of course multiple
speakers will provide more gain than one speaker. And horn speakers
get
their "gain" by directing more energy in one direction; there is a
loss
of signal in other directions. It has nothing to do with "impedance
matching to the air" (there is no such thing).

The laws of physics say it is impossible to create energy out of
nothing,
which is what you would be doing if you quadrupled the power (6db
gain)
by placing two speakers in phase. If you "measured" this, you need a
new meter.

I would love to tear apart your "reference".

Non believer in facts. If you don't believe you should do tests, like
me.

I'll skip the horn for now..

If you can't believe two speakers will move TWICE the air doubling
intensity, I don't know what else to say, except test yourself.

Greg


I have (I was an EE major). You can't create energy from nothing. The
laws of physics don't allow it. And I currently have a business which
deals with home entertainment systems.

At MOST, two speakers in phase can move twice the air. No more, and in
reality, because of inefficiencies, it will be less.

I hate to question the law of conservation of energy at all, but I must
say that there could be more energy delivered from two 8 ohm speakers in
parallel than a single speaker powered by the same amplifier. Many
amplifiers have 4 ohm outputs. So, you see the possibility. You would be
delivering the same energy to both speakers as was delivered to one.

Of course for those who believe in magical energy production, no
reasoning will help.

I personally have a Crown 810 powering a couple of AR SRT380s. The
amplifier has 4 ohm outputs and the speakers are 4 ohms. There is
nothing to be done to increase sound power except buy more efficient
folded horn types. I have neither the space nor money to do so. However,
at 420 watts rms per channel as it is now, I really don't require more
power. Jimmy Hendrix sounds just fine to me. :-)


I would hate to have you as my neighbor. I would have to call the police
on you.

We live in the North country close to the border. Our home, as are all,
is heavily insulated. I run the music loud as I want without bothering
the neighbours. The high wattage rating per channel is mostly just for
the incredibly low terminal impedance. This makes for very good fidelity
on high power low frequency. It is called inertial dampening. You have to
run large diameter wire to keep this all working. I have the speakers
hooked up with #10 wire. I checked performance of the speakers for this
type wire by running one speaker with #16 lamp cord which I had been
using and the other one hooked up with #10. I then switched to mono on
the preamp. Using the balance control clearly showed a very noticeable
improvement. I was told to use large dia wire to keep the resistance very
low. I first thought this was really over-kill but by experiment I found
that my advisor was correct. The impedance from the amp and wiring should
be in the very low milliohms to prevent inertial overshoot. Purple Haze
definitely sounded better :-)

PS some have actually used #00 wire to their speakers. Without
experimenting myself I feel by guessing that this is over-kill. I could
be wrong, I was before.

Yo only get so much damping with small wire. Most of it is determined by
the driver box design, driver, and resistance in the coil. What you gain
most is a more even driving Z to cover changes in speaker Z throughout the
response range.

Greg

Stacking Winegard HD-6065P antennas
 

Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 1/9/2014 11:53 AM, boomer wrote:


We aren't talking multiple arrays in large places. Of course multiple
speakers will provide more gain than one speaker. And horn speakers
get
their "gain" by directing more energy in one direction; there is a loss
of signal in other directions. It has nothing to do with "impedance
matching to the air" (there is no such thing).

The laws of physics say it is impossible to create energy out of
nothing,
which is what you would be doing if you quadrupled the power (6db gain)
by placing two speakers in phase. If you "measured" this, you need a
new meter.

I would love to tear apart your "reference".

Non believer in facts. If you don't believe you should do tests, like
me.

I'll skip the horn for now..

If you can't believe two speakers will move TWICE the air doubling
intensity, I don't know what else to say, except test yourself.

Greg


I have (I was an EE major). You can't create energy from nothing. The
laws of physics don't allow it. And I currently have a business which
deals with home entertainment systems.

At MOST, two speakers in phase can move twice the air. No more, and in
reality, because of inefficiencies, it will be less.

I hate to question the law of conservation of energy at all, but I must
say that there could be more energy delivered from two 8 ohm speakers in
parallel than a single speaker powered by the same amplifier. Many
amplifiers have 4 ohm outputs. So, you see the possibility. You would be
delivering the same energy to both speakers as was delivered to one.

Of course for those who believe in magical energy production, no
reasoning will help.

I personally have a Crown 810 powering a couple of AR SRT380s. The
amplifier has 4 ohm outputs and the speakers are 4 ohms. There is
nothing to be done to increase sound power except buy more efficient
folded horn types. I have neither the space nor money to do so. However,
at 420 watts rms per channel as it is now, I really don't require more
power. Jimmy Hendrix sounds just fine to me. :-)

So, matching output impedance of amplifier to speaker will result in
maximum energy transfer and using the most efficient speakers will
result in of course more acoustic energy produced. All we are talking
about here is not wasting energy in poor efficiency systems.



OK, so instead of putting out 100W to one eight-ohm speaker, you're
putting out 100W to two eight ohm speakers. So you have a 3db gain,
assuming the speakers are in phase.

It is no different than feeding two eight-ohm speakers from separate 100W
amplifiers, and the results are the same.


Don't try to design a speaker using parallel midrange units. Your speaker
will fail due to the midrange gain.

Greg

Stacking Winegard HD-6065P antennas
 

boomer wrote:

We aren't talking multiple arrays in large places. Of course multiple
speakers will provide more gain than one speaker. And horn speakers get
their "gain" by directing more energy in one direction; there is a loss
of signal in other directions. It has nothing to do with "impedance
matching to the air" (there is no such thing).

The laws of physics say it is impossible to create energy out of
nothing,
which is what you would be doing if you quadrupled the power (6db gain)
by placing two speakers in phase. If you "measured" this, you need a
new meter.

I would love to tear apart your "reference".

Non believer in facts. If you don't believe you should do tests, like me.

I'll skip the horn for now..

If you can't believe two speakers will move TWICE the air doubling
intensity, I don't know what else to say, except test yourself.

Greg


I have (I was an EE major). You can't create energy from nothing. The
laws of physics don't allow it. And I currently have a business which
deals with home entertainment systems.

At MOST, two speakers in phase can move twice the air. No more, and in
reality, because of inefficiencies, it will be less.

I hate to question the law of conservation of energy at all, but I must
say that there could be more energy delivered from two 8 ohm speakers in
parallel than a single speaker powered by the same amplifier. Many
amplifiers have 4 ohm outputs. So, you see the possibility. You would be
delivering the same energy to both speakers as was delivered to one.

Of course for those who believe in magical energy production, no reasoning will help.

I personally have a Crown 810 powering a couple of AR SRT380s. The
amplifier has 4 ohm outputs and the speakers are 4 ohms. There is nothing
to be done to increase sound power except buy more efficient folded horn
types. I have neither the space nor money to do so. However, at 420 watts
rms per channel as it is now, I really don't require more power. Jimmy
Hendrix sounds just fine to me. :-)


What, horns produce magical gain.

Greg

So, matching output impedance of amplifier to speaker will result in
maximum energy transfer and using the most efficient speakers will result
in of course more acoustic energy produced. All we are talking about here
is not wasting energy in poor efficiency systems.

Stacking Winegard HD-6065P antennas
 

boomer wrote:
On 1/9/2014 2:37 PM, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , boomer
writes


We aren't talking multiple arrays in large places. Of course multiple
speakers will provide more gain than one speaker. And horn
speakers get
their "gain" by directing more energy in one direction; there is a
loss
of signal in other directions. It has nothing to do with "impedance
matching to the air" (there is no such thing).

The laws of physics say it is impossible to create energy out of
nothing,
which is what you would be doing if you quadrupled the power (6db
gain)
by placing two speakers in phase. If you "measured" this, you need a
new meter.

I would love to tear apart your "reference".

Non believer in facts. If you don't believe you should do tests,
like me.

I'll skip the horn for now..

If you can't believe two speakers will move TWICE the air doubling
intensity, I don't know what else to say, except test yourself.

Greg


I have (I was an EE major). You can't create energy from nothing. The
laws of physics don't allow it. And I currently have a business which
deals with home entertainment systems.

At MOST, two speakers in phase can move twice the air. No more, and in
reality, because of inefficiencies, it will be less.

I hate to question the law of conservation of energy at all, but I
must say that there could be more energy delivered from two 8 ohm
speakers in parallel than a single speaker powered by the same
amplifier. Many amplifiers have 4 ohm outputs. So, you see the
possibility. You would be delivering the same energy to both speakers
as was delivered to one.

Of course for those who believe in magical energy production, no
reasoning will help.

I personally have a Crown 810 powering a couple of AR SRT380s. The
amplifier has 4 ohm outputs and the speakers are 4 ohms. There is
nothing to be done to increase sound power except buy more efficient
folded horn types. I have neither the space nor money to do so.
However, at 420 watts rms per channel as it is now, I really don't
require more power. Jimmy Hendrix sounds just fine to me. :-)

So, matching output impedance of amplifier to speaker will result in
maximum energy transfer and using the most efficient speakers will
result in of course more acoustic energy produced. All we are talking
about here is not wasting energy in poor efficiency systems.

If I understand things correctly, I don't think that many audio
amplifiers have an output impedance as high as 4 ohms. It's generally a
fraction of an ohm. However, an amplifier will be designed to deliver a
given power into a given load with a specified maximum distortion.

That too is my understanding. I believe that connecting a 4 or 2 ohm
speaker to an amplifier rated at 8 ohms would likely cause distortion.
For those still following this thread here is a simple explanation of inertial dampening.
http://www.crownaudio.com/media/pdf/...ing_factor.pdf

The output impedance of the Crown 810 is rated at less than 10 milliohms.
This is an important specification when you are wanting to hear very
little distortion. There of course other important factors including
Frequency Response, Phase Response, Signal-to-Noise Ratio, Total Harmonic
Distortion (THD), Intermodulation Distortion (IMD), Damping Factor, Slew
Rate, Output Power, and Crosstalk. And of course then there is the whole
science of speakers. Amplifier design is much easier to understand. I
cannot really get my head around all the factors that come into play
designing speakers. It is complicated enough to almost appear to be magic to me.

You would get more distortion with lower z, but it would be mostly depend
on the volume level. Kept low, distortion would be minimal.

Here is another post about damping. It even includes getting gain from two
drivers.
It's old, been there, done that.....

http://zekfrivolous.com/sub/usenet/pierce/damp.txt

Greg

Stacking Winegard HD-6065P antennas
 

gregz wrote:
boomer wrote:
On 1/9/2014 2:37 PM, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , boomer
writes


We aren't talking multiple arrays in large places. Of course multiple
speakers will provide more gain than one speaker. And horn
speakers get
their "gain" by directing more energy in one direction; there is a
loss
of signal in other directions. It has nothing to do with "impedance
matching to the air" (there is no such thing).

The laws of physics say it is impossible to create energy out of
nothing,
which is what you would be doing if you quadrupled the power (6db
gain)
by placing two speakers in phase. If you "measured" this, you need a
new meter.

I would love to tear apart your "reference".

Non believer in facts. If you don't believe you should do tests,
like me.

I'll skip the horn for now..

If you can't believe two speakers will move TWICE the air doubling
intensity, I don't know what else to say, except test yourself.

Greg


I have (I was an EE major). You can't create energy from nothing. The
laws of physics don't allow it. And I currently have a business which
deals with home entertainment systems.

At MOST, two speakers in phase can move twice the air. No more, and in
reality, because of inefficiencies, it will be less.

I hate to question the law of conservation of energy at all, but I
must say that there could be more energy delivered from two 8 ohm
speakers in parallel than a single speaker powered by the same
amplifier. Many amplifiers have 4 ohm outputs. So, you see the
possibility. You would be delivering the same energy to both speakers
as was delivered to one.

Of course for those who believe in magical energy production, no
reasoning will help.

I personally have a Crown 810 powering a couple of AR SRT380s. The
amplifier has 4 ohm outputs and the speakers are 4 ohms. There is
nothing to be done to increase sound power except buy more efficient
folded horn types. I have neither the space nor money to do so.
However, at 420 watts rms per channel as it is now, I really don't
require more power. Jimmy Hendrix sounds just fine to me. :-)

So, matching output impedance of amplifier to speaker will result in
maximum energy transfer and using the most efficient speakers will
result in of course more acoustic energy produced. All we are talking
about here is not wasting energy in poor efficiency systems.

If I understand things correctly, I don't think that many audio
amplifiers have an output impedance as high as 4 ohms. It's generally a
fraction of an ohm. However, an amplifier will be designed to deliver a
given power into a given load with a specified maximum distortion.

That too is my understanding. I believe that connecting a 4 or 2 ohm
speaker to an amplifier rated at 8 ohms would likely cause distortion.
For those still following this thread here is a simple explanation of inertial dampening.
http://www.crownaudio.com/media/pdf/...ing_factor.pdf

The output impedance of the Crown 810 is rated at less than 10 milliohms.
This is an important specification when you are wanting to hear very
little distortion. There of course other important factors including
Frequency Response, Phase Response, Signal-to-Noise Ratio, Total Harmonic
Distortion (THD), Intermodulation Distortion (IMD), Damping Factor, Slew
Rate, Output Power, and Crosstalk. And of course then there is the whole
science of speakers. Amplifier design is much easier to understand. I
cannot really get my head around all the factors that come into play
designing speakers. It is complicated enough to almost appear to be magic to me.

You would get more distortion with lower z, but it would be mostly depend
on the volume level. Kept low, distortion would be minimal.

Here is another post about damping. It even includes getting gain from two
drivers.
It's old, been there, done that.....

http://zekfrivolous.com/sub/usenet/pierce/damp.txt

Greg

For interest, the other part"....

http://zekfrivolous.com/sub/usenet/pierce/damp2.txt

Greg

Stacking Winegard HD-6065P antennas
 

"boomer" wrote in message
news:_fDzu.213384$4q1.203346@en-nntp-
PS some have actually used #00 wire to their speakers. Without
experimenting myself I feel by guessing that this is over-kill. I could be
wrong, I was before.

While going from # 20 or so speaker wire to # 10 is often helpful, I doubt
going much larger is going to help unless you have a very long run.

Lots of things are over sold to te audio people. Best one I know of is some
special oxygen free teflon wire ( or something like that) that replaces the
line cord to the wall outlet for over $ 100. Even if it actually did
something, that extra 50 or so feet of regular wire back to the breaker box
and other wire to the main power feed would make it worthless.



---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

Stacking Winegard HD-6065P antennas
 

"Ian Jackson" wrote in message

You missed out step #2, which was to measure the output level of the
splitter alone.

Using your figures, this would have shown a signal loss of 3.625dB (3dB
power split loss and 0.625dB of circuit loss).

When you then added the combiner, you would have 3dB power split loss and
0.625dB of circuit loss, followed by 3db power combine gain and 0.625dB of
circuit loss - so as you measured, a total loss of only 1.25dB.

Despite working in the cable TV industry for 43 years, for some reason
this is an experiment I don't recall ever performing!

Thanks Ian,

Earlier in this thread, I saw what I thought to be an error in some postings
.... about losses in excess of 3dB in the combiner and a conclusion that
stacking results in less signal, which shouldn't be the case. My little
experiment was meant to demonstrate a signal increase from combining
in-phase signals in a passive device. Put another way, I wanted to show
that a 3dB loss is not inherently present in both directions.

You are correct that I did not make the measurement of the output level of
the splitter alone, since it has been made and documented on many occasions.
A real lab experiment would have measured that and the cable losses, too.
(My 35 year-old Jerrold 747 was within easy reach and "close enough.")

It was my intent to show, when two equal signals (presumptive on my part
that the two outputs of a splitter are equal) are combined, that the result
is the addition of the two, minus ohmic and coupling losses, which I think I
did show.

"Sal"