Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

"Ian" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...
Not me but Wiki:
"The monopole antenna was invented ...
For radioamateurs the one wire is enough. The dipole is useless for them.
They want to "transmit for longer distances".

S*

Hello old chap.

There is surely no point in posting quotations from Wiki if you do not
understand them.
The comment about dipoles being useless for amateurs is definitely
incorrect. The dipole is a very popular design of antenna for amateur
radio
use.

Do you mean the dipoles fed by the coax or by the ladder line?
S*

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

"Rob" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
The "ground plane antenna" is also the monopole:
"To function as a ground plane, the conducting surface must be at least a
quarter of the wavelength (?/4) of the radio waves in size. In lower
frequency antennas, such as the mast radiators used for broadcast
antennas,
the Earth itself (or a body of water such as a salt marsh or ocean) is
used
as a ground plane. For higher frequency antennas, in the VHF or UHF
range,
the ground plane can be smaller, and metal disks, screens or wires are
used
as ground planes".

Note that it does not say that it is sufficient to connect one side
of the antenna to the ground with a wire.

Note what Marconi did: "Marconi, who discovered if he attached one terminal
of his transmitter to a
wire suspended in the air and the other to the Earth, he could transmit for
longer distances."

A ground plane is something different than a wire to ground.

The nonactive leg of the popular "dipole" is connected with the braid of a
coax and the mass (chassis) of the transmitter.
The braid has many wires. Each of them is the radial.
S*

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Rob" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
The "ground plane antenna" is also the monopole:
"To function as a ground plane, the conducting surface must be at least a
quarter of the wavelength (?/4) of the radio waves in size. In lower
frequency antennas, such as the mast radiators used for broadcast
antennas,
the Earth itself (or a body of water such as a salt marsh or ocean) is
used
as a ground plane. For higher frequency antennas, in the VHF or UHF
range,
the ground plane can be smaller, and metal disks, screens or wires are
used
as ground planes".

Note that it does not say that it is sufficient to connect one side
of the antenna to the ground with a wire.

Note what Marconi did: "Marconi, who discovered if he attached one terminal
of his transmitter to a
wire suspended in the air and the other to the Earth, he could transmit for
longer distances."

Marconi was using low frequencies where the wavelength is so long that
his wires are comparatively short.

At frequencies where amateurs operate, the wavelength is comparable
to the length of the feedline and it no longer works like that.

A ground plane is something different than a wire to ground.

The nonactive leg of the popular "dipole" is connected with the braid of a
coax and the mass (chassis) of the transmitter.
The braid has many wires. Each of them is the radial.
S*

It does not work like that.
A quarter wave radial works because when one end is floating the other
end has a low impedance.

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

"Wayne" napisal w wiadomosci
...


"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
.. .


"Wayne" napisal w wiadomosci
...


"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...


On Friday, April 26, 2013 12:38:06 PM UTC-5, Irv Finkleman wrote:
snip

Maybe SB can explain the difference between a monopole with a single
ungrounded radial, and a dipole.

Each radial, grounded or not (but connected to the shield of the coax),
is the ground.
The Earth, the Moon, a satelite and each piece of conductor is ground
for antennas. Radial is one of them.
Ground must be adequate to kW.

What if the single ungrounded quarter wave radial is in line with the
quarter wave radiator?
Is it still a monopole?

# Of course.

Wow...you gave a lot to digest.

Just to understand the discussion, let's address the monopole with one
radial.

Assuming the monopole is 1/4 wave long, and has a 1/4 wave long radial.
The radial is in line with the monopole. Everything is ungrounded.

# The radial connected with the shield of the coax is the ground.


How does that configuration of a monopole with one radial differ from a
dipole?

The true horizontal dipole (electrically symmetric) radiate in one direction
only. A monopole in all directions.

So a half wave wire broken at the center is a monopole with a single
radial if it is fed directly with coax?

Yes. The one leg is the radiator and the second is a ground (like a
satellite chassis).

And it is a dipole if it has a balanced feed?

The true dipole is electrically symmetric. The same voltages but in the
opposite phase.
Thank this the interference take place and a dipole has the main lobe and
many side lobes.
With the monopole no lobes.

What if the coax feedline has a quarter wave sleeve, open at the antenna
but connected to the coax at the other end?
Is it a monopole or a dipole?

"Marconi, who discovered if he attached one terminal of his transmitter to a
wire suspended in the air and the other to the Earth, he could transmit for
longer distances".

As you know are many version of ground because the soil is not the best.
The sleeve, the braid of the coax and so on are only the better ground.

Dipole must be electrically symmetric.
If one leg is connected to the any version of ground such "dipole" radiate
as monopole.
S*

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

"tom" napisal w wiadomosci
. ..
On 4/29/2013 10:20 PM, tom wrote:
On 4/29/2013 3:50 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"Wayne" napisal w wiadomosci
Assuming the monopole is 1/4 wave long, and has a 1/4 wave long radial.
The radial is in line with the monopole. Everything is ungrounded.

The radial connected with the shield of the coax is the ground.

So what would happen if I connected my transmitter, which has a 50 ohm
{ostensibly) output with the hot lead of the coax connected to the
"radial" instead of the "monopole" and similarly with the braid?

Think long about this.


Just to clearly understand where you are on how this really works.

I am not sure if I understand you.

If you have the mechanically symmetric dipole than one leg with the coax
braid works as the radiator and the second as the ground.
If you change the terminals than your radial will be the radiator.

Do not you have any possibility to check which leg is active?
S*

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

On Tuesday, April 30, 2013 3:17:13 AM UTC-5, Szczepan Bialek wrote:

I am not sure if I understand you.

Gee... you think?

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Rob" napisa? w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
The "ground plane antenna" is also the monopole:
"To function as a ground plane, the conducting surface must be at least a
quarter of the wavelength (?/4) of the radio waves in size. In lower
frequency antennas, such as the mast radiators used for broadcast
antennas,
the Earth itself (or a body of water such as a salt marsh or ocean) is
used
as a ground plane. For higher frequency antennas, in the VHF or UHF
range,
the ground plane can be smaller, and metal disks, screens or wires are
used
as ground planes".

Note that it does not say that it is sufficient to connect one side
of the antenna to the ground with a wire.

Note what Marconi did: "Marconi, who discovered if he attached one terminal
of his transmitter to a
wire suspended in the air and the other to the Earth, he could transmit for
longer distances."

Irrelevant to anything said, but you are too ignorant to understand why.


A ground plane is something different than a wire to ground.

The nonactive leg of the popular "dipole" is connected with the braid of a
coax and the mass (chassis) of the transmitter.

Pure babble.

Both legs of a dipole are "active".

Not all dipoles are feed with coax.

Some transmitters have no chassis or metal mass of any kind, a good
example of which would be radiosondes before transistors were invented.

They were build on a non-conductive sheet using point to point wiring
and had no metal mass, no chassis, no ground, and were hung from
balloons.

The braid has many wires. Each of them is the radial.

Pure babbling, nonsense.



--
Jim Pennino

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Ian" napisa? w wiadomo?ci
...
"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...
Not me but Wiki:
"The monopole antenna was invented ...
For radioamateurs the one wire is enough. The dipole is useless for them.
They want to "transmit for longer distances".

S*

Hello old chap.

There is surely no point in posting quotations from Wiki if you do not
understand them.
The comment about dipoles being useless for amateurs is definitely
incorrect. The dipole is a very popular design of antenna for amateur
radio
use.

Do you mean the dipoles fed by the coax or by the ladder line?

It doesn't matter but you are too stupid to understand why.

And both methods of feed are very popular.

Repeat the following until it sinks into your only two functioning brain
cells:

An antenna is an antenna and a feedline is a feedline.


--
Jim Pennino

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Wayne" napisal w wiadomosci
...


snip

How does that configuration of a monopole with one radial differ from a
dipole?

The true horizontal dipole (electrically symmetric) radiate in one direction
only. A monopole in all directions.

A dipole radiates in two directions, idiot.

So a half wave wire broken at the center is a monopole with a single
radial if it is fed directly with coax?

Yes. The one leg is the radiator and the second is a ground (like a
satellite chassis).

Absurd nonsense.

And it is a dipole if it has a balanced feed?

The true dipole is electrically symmetric. The same voltages but in the
opposite phase.
Thank this the interference take place and a dipole has the main lobe and
many side lobes.
With the monopole no lobes.

Babbling gibberish as usual.

What if the coax feedline has a quarter wave sleeve, open at the antenna
but connected to the coax at the other end?
Is it a monopole or a dipole?

"Marconi, who discovered if he attached one terminal of his transmitter to a
wire suspended in the air and the other to the Earth, he could transmit for
longer distances".

This has nothing to do with the question asked.

You haven't the slightest clue what a quarter wave sleeve is or what it
does.


As you know are many version of ground because the soil is not the best.
The sleeve, the braid of the coax and so on are only the better ground.

Utter nonsense.

Dipole must be electrically symmetric.
If one leg is connected to the any version of ground such "dipole" radiate
as monopole.

More babble.

You truely are an idiot.


--
Jim Pennino

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"tom" napisal w wiadomosci
. ..
On 4/29/2013 10:20 PM, tom wrote:
On 4/29/2013 3:50 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"Wayne" napisal w wiadomosci
Assuming the monopole is 1/4 wave long, and has a 1/4 wave long radial.
The radial is in line with the monopole. Everything is ungrounded.

The radial connected with the shield of the coax is the ground.

So what would happen if I connected my transmitter, which has a 50 ohm
{ostensibly) output with the hot lead of the coax connected to the
"radial" instead of the "monopole" and similarly with the braid?

Think long about this.


Just to clearly understand where you are on how this really works.

I am not sure if I understand you.

You don't understand anything.


If you have the mechanically symmetric dipole than one leg with the coax
braid works as the radiator and the second as the ground.
If you change the terminals than your radial will be the radiator.

Babbling nonsense.

Do not you have any possibility to check which leg is active?

More nonsense.



--
Jim Pennino

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...


"Wayne" napisal w wiadomosci
...


"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
.. .


"Wayne" napisal w wiadomosci
...


"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...


On Friday, April 26, 2013 12:38:06 PM UTC-5, Irv Finkleman wrote:
snip

Maybe SB can explain the difference between a monopole with a single
ungrounded radial, and a dipole.

Each radial, grounded or not (but connected to the shield of the coax),
is the ground.
The Earth, the Moon, a satelite and each piece of conductor is ground
for antennas. Radial is one of them.
Ground must be adequate to kW.

What if the single ungrounded quarter wave radial is in line with the
quarter wave radiator?
Is it still a monopole?

# Of course.

Wow...you gave a lot to digest.

Just to understand the discussion, let's address the monopole with one
radial.

Assuming the monopole is 1/4 wave long, and has a 1/4 wave long radial.
The radial is in line with the monopole. Everything is ungrounded.

# The radial connected with the shield of the coax is the ground.


How does that configuration of a monopole with one radial differ from a
dipole?

The true horizontal dipole (electrically symmetric) radiate in one direction
only. A monopole in all directions.

So a half wave wire broken at the center is a monopole with a single
radial if it is fed directly with coax?

# Yes. The one leg is the radiator and the second is a ground (like a
# satellite chassis).

So with direct coax connection, one leg radiates and the other leg is
ground?

Would you be willing to touch the end of the "ground"/"radial" wire while
transmitting?

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

U¿ytkownik napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:


"Marconi, who discovered if he attached one terminal of his transmitter
to a
wire suspended in the air and the other to the Earth, he could transmit
for
longer distances".

This has nothing to do with the question asked.



As you know are many version of ground because the soil is not the best.
The sleeve, the braid of the coax and so on are only the better ground.

Utter nonsense.

Dipole must be electrically symmetric.
If one leg is connected to the any version of ground such "dipole"
radiate
as monopole.

More babble.

You truely are an idiot.

You know only the EM waves. They "were made" by Heaviside in 1884, years
before Marconi and Tesla.
Take a glance on the Marconi Nobel lecture from 1909.
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf
There (in references) no EM waves. No Heaviside. No Maxwell
Marconi wrote: "In my opinion many facts connected with the transmission of
electric
waves over great distances still await a satisfactory explanation".

Electric waves are radiated. EM is an induction.

About ground Marconi wrote:

"The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned,

but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy exists

where the instruments are not connected to earth.

By "connected to earth" I do not necessarily mean an ordinary metallic

connection as used for ordinary wire telegraphs.

The earth wire may have a condenser in series with it, or it may be
connected

to what is really equivalent, a capacity area placed close to the surface

of the ground (Fig. 4).

It is now perfectly well known that a condenser, if large enough, does not

prevent the passage of high frequency oscillations, and therefore in these
cases

the earth is for all practical purposes connected to the antennae."

Was Marconi an idiot?

S*

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:
It is now perfectly well known that a condenser, if large enough, does not

prevent the passage of high frequency oscillations, and therefore in these
cases

the earth is for all practical purposes connected to the antennae."

It is also well known that a conductor, when long enough, presents
itself as an inductor and does not allow passage of high frequency
oscillations.

Is Szczepan an idiot?

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

"Wayne" napisal w wiadomosci
...


"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...


# The radial connected with the shield of the coax is the ground.


How does that configuration of a monopole with one radial differ from a
dipole?

The true horizontal dipole (electrically symmetric) radiate in one
direction
only. A monopole in all directions.

So a half wave wire broken at the center is a monopole with a single
radial if it is fed directly with coax?

# Yes. The one leg is the radiator and the second is a ground (like a
# satellite chassis).

So with direct coax connection, one leg radiates and the other leg is
ground?

Yes.

Would you be willing to touch the end of the "ground"/"radial" wire while
transmitting?

The electron density changes periodically in the both legs (while
transmitting).
Are the voltages equal in the both legs?

If you are really interested in electric waves look at Maconi Nobel lectu
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf
S*

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

"Rob" wrote in message
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
It is now perfectly well known that a condenser, if large enough, does
not


Is Szczepan an idiot?

I think the ones answering him are...

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
.. .


"Wayne" napisal w wiadomosci
...


"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...


# The radial connected with the shield of the coax is the ground.


How does that configuration of a monopole with one radial differ from a
dipole?

The true horizontal dipole (electrically symmetric) radiate in one
direction
only. A monopole in all directions.

So a half wave wire broken at the center is a monopole with a single
radial if it is fed directly with coax?

# Yes. The one leg is the radiator and the second is a ground (like a
# satellite chassis).

So with direct coax connection, one leg radiates and the other leg is
ground?

# Yes.

Would you be willing to touch the end of the "ground"/"radial" wire while
transmitting?

# The electron density changes periodically in the both legs (while
# transmitting).
# Are the voltages equal in the both legs?

But the question was: if the half of the antenna connected to the coax is
ground, would you be willing to touch the end of that half while RF power is
supplied to the center conductor connected half of the antenna?

That would be a good way of verifying your theory.

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

U?ytkownik napisa? w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:


"Marconi, who discovered if he attached one terminal of his transmitter
to a
wire suspended in the air and the other to the Earth, he could transmit
for
longer distances".

This has nothing to do with the question asked.



As you know are many version of ground because the soil is not the best.
The sleeve, the braid of the coax and so on are only the better ground.

Utter nonsense.

Dipole must be electrically symmetric.
If one leg is connected to the any version of ground such "dipole"
radiate
as monopole.

More babble.

You truely are an idiot.

You know only the EM waves. They "were made" by Heaviside in 1884, years
before Marconi and Tesla.

Babble.

Take a glance on the Marconi Nobel lecture from 1909.
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf
There (in references) no EM waves. No Heaviside. No Maxwell

More babble.

Marconi wrote: "In my opinion many facts connected with the transmission of
electric
waves over great distances still await a satisfactory explanation".

Over 100 years old; EM radiation is now well understood by just about
everyone but you.

Electric waves are radiated. EM is an induction.

Yet more babble.

About ground Marconi wrote:

"The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned,

but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy exists

where the instruments are not connected to earth.

By "connected to earth" I do not necessarily mean an ordinary metallic

connection as used for ordinary wire telegraphs.

The earth wire may have a condenser in series with it, or it may be
connected

to what is really equivalent, a capacity area placed close to the surface

of the ground (Fig. 4).

It is now perfectly well known that a condenser, if large enough, does not

prevent the passage of high frequency oscillations, and therefore in these
cases

the earth is for all practical purposes connected to the antennae."

Was Marconi an idiot?

No, Marconi was simply proven wrong about the ground requirement many
decades ago.

The majority of antennas that exist today were invented after Marconi died.

You, however, are a babbling idiot.



--
Jim Pennino

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

Rob wrote:
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
It is now perfectly well known that a condenser, if large enough, does not

prevent the passage of high frequency oscillations, and therefore in these
cases

the earth is for all practical purposes connected to the antennae."

It is also well known that a conductor, when long enough, presents
itself as an inductor and does not allow passage of high frequency
oscillations.

Is Szczepan an idiot?

Yes, Szczepan is a babbling idiot.



--
Jim Pennino

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

snip


The electron density changes periodically in the both legs (while
transmitting).
Are the voltages equal in the both legs?

If you actually knew anything about antennas you would realize that is
an immensely stupid question.

If you are really interested in electric waves look at Maconi Nobel lectu
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf

Most of the knowledge of electromagnetic waves, not "electric waves", was
obtained after 1909.

Your are not only and idiot, you are an idiot 100 years out of date.



--
Jim Pennino

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

On 4/30/2013 3:17 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"tom" napisal w wiadomosci
. ..
On 4/29/2013 10:20 PM, tom wrote:
On 4/29/2013 3:50 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"Wayne" napisal w wiadomosci
Assuming the monopole is 1/4 wave long, and has a 1/4 wave long radial.
The radial is in line with the monopole. Everything is ungrounded.

The radial connected with the shield of the coax is the ground.

So what would happen if I connected my transmitter, which has a 50 ohm
{ostensibly) output with the hot lead of the coax connected to the
"radial" instead of the "monopole" and similarly with the braid?

Think long about this.


Just to clearly understand where you are on how this really works.

I am not sure if I understand you.

If you have the mechanically symmetric dipole than one leg with the coax
braid works as the radiator and the second as the ground.
If you change the terminals than your radial will be the radiator.

Do not you have any possibility to check which leg is active?
S*



How does the "leg" know if it is connected to the braid versus the
center conductor?

tom
K0TAR

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

On 4/30/2013 12:08 PM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:

It is now perfectly well known that a condenser, if large enough, does not

prevent the passage of high frequency oscillations, and therefore in these
cases

the earth is for all practical purposes connected to the antennae."

Was Marconi an idiot?

S*



If you pick the text you posted here yes, he was an idiot by your
definition. He wasn't really an idiot, unlike you.

Because the earth is NOT "in these cases the earth is for all practical
purposes connected to the antennae" for well over 99% of all the
antennas in use today. Because it doesn't need to be.

tom
K0TAR

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

tom wrote:
On 4/30/2013 3:17 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"tom" napisal w wiadomosci
. ..
On 4/29/2013 10:20 PM, tom wrote:
On 4/29/2013 3:50 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"Wayne" napisal w wiadomosci
Assuming the monopole is 1/4 wave long, and has a 1/4 wave long radial.
The radial is in line with the monopole. Everything is ungrounded.

The radial connected with the shield of the coax is the ground.

So what would happen if I connected my transmitter, which has a 50 ohm
{ostensibly) output with the hot lead of the coax connected to the
"radial" instead of the "monopole" and similarly with the braid?

Think long about this.


Just to clearly understand where you are on how this really works.

I am not sure if I understand you.

If you have the mechanically symmetric dipole than one leg with the coax
braid works as the radiator and the second as the ground.
If you change the terminals than your radial will be the radiator.

Do not you have any possibility to check which leg is active?
S*



How does the "leg" know if it is connected to the braid versus the
center conductor?

tom
K0TAR

A better question is how does this idiot to come in out of the rain
or does he just stand there, looking at the sky with with his mouth open,
until someone notices the gurgling sounds and takes him inside?





--
Jim Pennino

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Rob wrote:
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
It is now perfectly well known that a condenser, if large enough, does
not

prevent the passage of high frequency oscillations, and therefore in
these
cases

the earth is for all practical purposes connected to the antennae."

It is also well known that a conductor, when long enough, presents
itself as an inductor and does not allow passage of high frequency
oscillations.

Is Szczepan an idiot?

Yes, Szczepan is a babbling idiot.

And what about you? Ralph wrote:
"I think the ones answering him are..."
S*

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:


You know only the EM waves. They "were made" by Heaviside in 1884, years
before Marconi and Tesla.

Babble.

Take a glance on the Marconi Nobel lecture from 1909.
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf
There (in references) no EM waves. No Heaviside. No Maxwell

More babble.

Marconi wrote: "In my opinion many facts connected with the transmission
of
electric
waves over great distances still await a satisfactory explanation".

Over 100 years old; EM radiation is now well understood by just about
everyone but you.

EM by Maxwell and Heaviside are much older.

Electric waves are radiated. EM is an induction.
S*

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

"Wayne" napisal w wiadomosci
...


"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
.. .



So with direct coax connection, one leg radiates and the other leg is
ground?

# Yes.

Would you be willing to touch the end of the "ground"/"radial" wire while
transmitting?

# The electron density changes periodically in the both legs (while
# transmitting).
# Are the voltages equal in the both legs?

But the question was: if the half of the antenna connected to the coax is
ground, would you be willing to touch the end of that half while RF power
is supplied to the center conductor connected half of the antenna?

That would be a good way of verifying your theory.

It is not my theory. Somebody wrote:
"H. Horizontal, unbalanced antennas, such as a long wire or random wire,
need an RF Ground wire that should be 10-15% longer than the antenna wire
itself. This is often called a counterpoise. The RF ground wire in this case
can be laid out in many ways, just so long as it does not cross over itself
to form a loop. Indoors, such wires are often run under carpets or along
walls, out of windows, or anywhere else convenient. This wire will often
have large RF voltages on it, so it should be kept away from people or
insulated to prevent contact." From:
http://www.sgcworld.com/radialstechnote.html

Your "dipoles" are "horizontal, unbalanced antennas". The radial or
counterpoise "should be kept away from people or insulated to prevent
contact."
The "mechanically symmetric dipole" is the simplest solution.
Do you agree?
S*

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

"tom" napisal w wiadomosci
...
On 4/30/2013 12:08 PM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:

It is now perfectly well known that a condenser, if large enough, does
not

prevent the passage of high frequency oscillations, and therefore in
these
cases

the earth is for all practical purposes connected to the antennae."

Was Marconi an idiot?

S*



If you pick the text you posted here yes, he was an idiot by your
definition. He wasn't really an idiot, unlike you.

Because the earth is NOT "in these cases the earth is for all practical
purposes connected to the antennae" for well over 99% of all the antennas
in use today. Because it doesn't need to be.

You simply do not know that:
"In electronic circuit theory, a "ground" is usually idealized as an
infinite source or sink for charge, which can absorb an unlimited amount of
current without changing its potential." and,

"The use of the term ground (or earth) is so common in electrical and
electronics applications that circuits in portable electronic devices such
as cell phones and media players as well as circuits in vehicles may be
spoken of as having a "ground" connection without any actual connection to
the Earth. This is usually a large conductor attached to one side of the
power supply (such as the "ground plane" on a printed circuit board) which
serves as the common return path for current from many different components
in the circuit." From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_(electricity)

The same was wrote by Marconi.
S*

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

And what about you? Ralph wrote:
"I think the ones answering him are..."
S*

So you are proud of the fact that someone thinks answering your babbling
nonsense is a waste of time?



--
Jim Pennino

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa? w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:


You know only the EM waves. They "were made" by Heaviside in 1884, years
before Marconi and Tesla.

Babble.

Take a glance on the Marconi Nobel lecture from 1909.
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf
There (in references) no EM waves. No Heaviside. No Maxwell

More babble.

Marconi wrote: "In my opinion many facts connected with the transmission
of
electric
waves over great distances still await a satisfactory explanation".

Over 100 years old; EM radiation is now well understood by just about
everyone but you.

EM by Maxwell and Heaviside are much older.

One more time; EM radiation is now well understood by just about
everyone but you.

The majority of EM radiation theory was formulated after 1909.

Continuing to quote Maxwell, Heaviside, and Marconi just shows how
obsolete your "knowledge" is.



--
Jim Pennino

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"tom" napisal w wiadomosci
...
On 4/30/2013 12:08 PM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:

It is now perfectly well known that a condenser, if large enough, does
not

prevent the passage of high frequency oscillations, and therefore in
these
cases

the earth is for all practical purposes connected to the antennae."

Was Marconi an idiot?

S*



If you pick the text you posted here yes, he was an idiot by your
definition. He wasn't really an idiot, unlike you.

Because the earth is NOT "in these cases the earth is for all practical
purposes connected to the antennae" for well over 99% of all the antennas
in use today. Because it doesn't need to be.

You simply do not know that:
"In electronic circuit theory, a "ground" is usually idealized as an
infinite source or sink for charge, which can absorb an unlimited amount of
current without changing its potential." and,

Irrelevant.

"The use of the term ground (or earth) is so common in electrical and
electronics applications that circuits in portable electronic devices such
as cell phones and media players as well as circuits in vehicles may be
spoken of as having a "ground" connection without any actual connection to
the Earth. This is usually a large conductor attached to one side of the
power supply (such as the "ground plane" on a printed circuit board) which
serves as the common return path for current from many different components
in the circuit." From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_(electricity)

Irrelevant.

The same was wrote by Marconi.

Marconi was proven wrong.

Where is the ground on a WWII era radiosonde?

No chassis, no "ground plane", no ciruit board, only point-to-point
wiring on a non-conductive mounting board and an antenna that is a
piece of wire connected to the plate circuit.


--
Jim Pennino

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

On 5/1/2013 3:47 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"tom" napisal w wiadomosci
...


If you pick the text you posted here yes, he was an idiot by your
definition. He wasn't really an idiot, unlike you.

Because the earth is NOT "in these cases the earth is for all practical
purposes connected to the antennae" for well over 99% of all the antennas
in use today. Because it doesn't need to be.

You simply do not know that:
"In electronic circuit theory, a "ground" is usually idealized as an
infinite source or sink for charge, which can absorb an unlimited amount of
current without changing its potential." and,

But the "ground" you are referring to in this paragraph is NOT the one
you are in the next. One is an essentially infinite sink, and the other
ignores that property entirely.

So you are arguing with yourself here.


"The use of the term ground (or earth) is so common in electrical and
electronics applications that circuits in portable electronic devices such
as cell phones and media players as well as circuits in vehicles may be
spoken of as having a "ground" connection without any actual connection to
the Earth. This is usually a large conductor attached to one side of the
power supply (such as the "ground plane" on a printed circuit board) which
serves as the common return path for current from many different components
in the circuit." From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_(electricity)

The same was wrote by Marconi.
S*



tom
K0TAR

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...


"Wayne" napisal w wiadomosci
...


"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
.. .



So with direct coax connection, one leg radiates and the other leg is
ground?

# Yes.

Would you be willing to touch the end of the "ground"/"radial" wire while
transmitting?

# The electron density changes periodically in the both legs (while
# transmitting).
# Are the voltages equal in the both legs?

But the question was: if the half of the antenna connected to the coax is
ground, would you be willing to touch the end of that half while RF power
is supplied to the center conductor connected half of the antenna?

That would be a good way of verifying your theory.

# It is not my theory. Somebody wrote:
# "H. Horizontal, unbalanced antennas, such as a long wire or random wire,
# need an RF Ground wire that should be 10-15% longer than the antenna wire
# itself. This is often called a counterpoise. The RF ground wire in this
case
# can be laid out in many ways, just so long as it does not cross over
itself
# to form a loop. Indoors, such wires are often run under carpets or along
# walls, out of windows, or anywhere else convenient. This wire will often
# have large RF voltages on it, so it should be kept away from people or
# insulated to prevent contact." From:
# http://www.sgcworld.com/radialstechnote.html

# Your "dipoles" are "horizontal, unbalanced antennas". The radial or
# counterpoise "should be kept away from people or insulated to prevent
# contact."

It appears that your reference above from SGC contradicts your single radial
assertion.

For a half wave antenna broken in the center, you claim that the half
connected to the coax braid is a radial.
If it is a radial, why does it have high voltage at the end, behaving like a
dipole?

I wonder if I have gone nuts going through this thread!

73,

Nandu.

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

"tom" napisal w wiadomosci
. ..
On 5/1/2013 3:47 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:

You simply do not know that:
"In electronic circuit theory, a "ground" is usually idealized as an
infinite source or sink for charge, which can absorb an unlimited amount
of
current without changing its potential." and,

But the "ground" you are referring to in this paragraph is NOT the one you
are in the next. One is an essentially infinite sink, and the other
ignores that property entirely.

So you are arguing with yourself here.

The both paragraph are wrote by the same Author.


"The use of the term ground (or earth) is so common in electrical and
electronics applications that circuits in portable electronic devices
such
as cell phones and media players as well as circuits in vehicles may be
spoken of as having a "ground" connection without any actual connection
to
the Earth. This is usually a large conductor attached to one side of the
power supply (such as the "ground plane" on a printed circuit board)
which
serves as the common return path for current from many different
components
in the circuit." From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_(electricity)

The "large conductor, "ground plane" or "radials" are in the air or in the
space.
The air or the space are the "infinite source or sink for charge".

I assume that you know that a conductor gain/loss the charge in the
air/space.
But the conductor must be large enough.
In your "dipole" one radial is enugh but in a big station must be much more.

The same was wrote by Marconi.
S*

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

"Wayne" napisal w wiadomosci
...


# It is not my theory. Somebody wrote:
# "H. Horizontal, unbalanced antennas, such as a long wire or random wire,
# need an RF Ground wire that should be 10-15% longer than the antenna
wire
# itself. This is often called a counterpoise. The RF ground wire in this
case
# can be laid out in many ways, just so long as it does not cross over
itself
# to form a loop. Indoors, such wires are often run under carpets or along
# walls, out of windows, or anywhere else convenient. This wire will often
# have large RF voltages on it, so it should be kept away from people or
# insulated to prevent contact." From:
# http://www.sgcworld.com/radialstechnote.html

# Your "dipoles" are "horizontal, unbalanced antennas". The radial or
# counterpoise "should be kept away from people or insulated to prevent
# contact."

It appears that your reference above from SGC contradicts your single
radial assertion.

For a half wave antenna broken in the center, you claim that the half
connected to the coax braid is a radial.
If it is a radial, why does it have high voltage at the end, behaving like
a dipole?

""Marconi, who discovered if he attached one terminal of his transmitter to
a
wire suspended in the air and the other to the Earth, he could transmit for
longer distances".

Each transmittel as a source of AC produces the high voltage at the both
ends.
If the one end is in the soil you have the monopooe antenna.

But next Marconi discovered that the radials are better than the soil.

You should understand that 120 radials have lower voltage than one radiator.
Also one radial from your "dipole" connetced in series with the shield has
lower voltage.

Have you posibility to measure the VSWR on the both legs your "dipole"?
S*

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"tom" napisal w wiadomosci
. ..
On 5/1/2013 3:47 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:

You simply do not know that:
"In electronic circuit theory, a "ground" is usually idealized as an
infinite source or sink for charge, which can absorb an unlimited amount
of
current without changing its potential." and,

But the "ground" you are referring to in this paragraph is NOT the one you
are in the next. One is an essentially infinite sink, and the other
ignores that property entirely.

So you are arguing with yourself here.

The both paragraph are wrote by the same Author.

Irrelevant.

You are incapable of understanding that the word "ground" can refer to
several different things.

"The use of the term ground (or earth) is so common in electrical and
electronics applications that circuits in portable electronic devices
such
as cell phones and media players as well as circuits in vehicles may be
spoken of as having a "ground" connection without any actual connection
to
the Earth. This is usually a large conductor attached to one side of the
power supply (such as the "ground plane" on a printed circuit board)
which
serves as the common return path for current from many different
components
in the circuit." From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_(electricity)

The "large conductor, "ground plane" or "radials" are in the air or in the
space.
The air or the space are the "infinite source or sink for charge".

Nope, they are not.

You are incapable of understanding that the word "ground" can refer to
several different things.

I assume that you know that a conductor gain/loss the charge in the
air/space.
But the conductor must be large enough.
In your "dipole" one radial is enugh but in a big station must be much more.

Babbling gibberish

The same was wrote by Marconi.

It doesn't matter a lot what Marconi wrote as a lot of the things he wrote
were later discoved to be wrong or only apply in limited situations.


--
Jim Pennino

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Wayne" napisal w wiadomosci
...


# It is not my theory. Somebody wrote:
# "H. Horizontal, unbalanced antennas, such as a long wire or random wire,
# need an RF Ground wire that should be 10-15% longer than the antenna
wire
# itself. This is often called a counterpoise. The RF ground wire in this
case
# can be laid out in many ways, just so long as it does not cross over
itself
# to form a loop. Indoors, such wires are often run under carpets or along
# walls, out of windows, or anywhere else convenient. This wire will often
# have large RF voltages on it, so it should be kept away from people or
# insulated to prevent contact." From:
# http://www.sgcworld.com/radialstechnote.html

# Your "dipoles" are "horizontal, unbalanced antennas". The radial or
# counterpoise "should be kept away from people or insulated to prevent
# contact."

It appears that your reference above from SGC contradicts your single
radial assertion.

For a half wave antenna broken in the center, you claim that the half
connected to the coax braid is a radial.
If it is a radial, why does it have high voltage at the end, behaving like
a dipole?

""Marconi, who discovered if he attached one terminal of his transmitter to
a
wire suspended in the air and the other to the Earth, he could transmit for
longer distances".

For certain types of antennas.

Most of the antennas that exist today did not exist in Marconi'e lifetime.

Each transmittel as a source of AC produces the high voltage at the both
ends.

Both ends of what?

If the one end is in the soil you have the monopooe antenna.

Maybe.

But next Marconi discovered that the radials are better than the soil.

Only under certain conditions.

You should understand that 120 radials have lower voltage than one radiator.

Babbling nonsense.

Also one radial from your "dipole" connetced in series with the shield has
lower voltage.

Babbling nonsense.

Have you posibility to measure the VSWR on the both legs your "dipole"?

This is an idiotic question that shows you haven't the slightest clue
how antennas work.



--
Jim Pennino

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

"vu2nan" wrote in message ...


I wonder if I have gone nuts going through this thread!

73,

Nandu.

LOL, but you must admit there is more traffic on the group than before this
thread :)

Wayne
W5GIE

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

In message ,
writes
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Wayne" napisal w wiadomosci
...


# It is not my theory. Somebody wrote:
# "H. Horizontal, unbalanced antennas, such as a long wire or random wire,
# need an RF Ground wire that should be 10-15% longer than the antenna
wire
# itself. This is often called a counterpoise. The RF ground wire in this
case
# can be laid out in many ways, just so long as it does not cross over
itself
# to form a loop. Indoors, such wires are often run under carpets or along
# walls, out of windows, or anywhere else convenient. This wire will often
# have large RF voltages on it, so it should be kept away from people or
# insulated to prevent contact." From:
# http://www.sgcworld.com/radialstechnote.html

# Your "dipoles" are "horizontal, unbalanced antennas". The radial or
# counterpoise "should be kept away from people or insulated to prevent
# contact."

It appears that your reference above from SGC contradicts your single
radial assertion.

For a half wave antenna broken in the center, you claim that the half
connected to the coax braid is a radial.
If it is a radial, why does it have high voltage at the end, behaving like
a dipole?

""Marconi, who discovered if he attached one terminal of his transmitter to
a
wire suspended in the air and the other to the Earth, he could transmit for
longer distances".

For certain types of antennas.

Most of the antennas that exist today did not exist in Marconi'e lifetime.

Each transmittel as a source of AC produces the high voltage at the both
ends.

Both ends of what?

If the one end is in the soil you have the monopooe antenna.

Maybe.

But next Marconi discovered that the radials are better than the soil.

Only under certain conditions.

You should understand that 120 radials have lower voltage than one radiator.

Babbling nonsense.

Also one radial from your "dipole" connetced in series with the shield has
lower voltage.

Babbling nonsense.

Have you posibility to measure the VSWR on the both legs your "dipole"?

This is an idiotic question that shows you haven't the slightest clue
how antennas work.

Actually, some of the amusing babbling nonsense does occasionally have a
small grain of sense. And even if it obviously IS nonsense, can we
always say precisely why it is?

If a dipole is fed directly with coax, is the power (voltage and
current) into each leg the same? If not, why not?

Again, if a dipole is fed directly with coax, and if you could insert an
SWR meter at the feed into each leg, would the two readings be the same.
If not, why not?
--
Ian

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

Ian Jackson wrote:

Actually, some of the amusing babbling nonsense does occasionally have a
small grain of sense. And even if it obviously IS nonsense, can we
always say precisely why it is?

There is usually some small bit of reality in the stuff this idiot posts,
but from that small bit he always makes giant leaps into the land of
nonsense.

Ye, we can say why his babbling is nonsense but few have the huge amount
of time or the inclination to do so.

If a dipole is fed directly with coax, is the power (voltage and
current) into each leg the same? If not, why not?

Again, if a dipole is fed directly with coax, and if you could insert an
SWR meter at the feed into each leg, would the two readings be the same.
If not, why not?

SWR into a leg has no meaning.

You may as well be asking how to remove the bones from ice cream.



--
Jim Pennino

Anyone know where I can find plans for an artificial ground?
 

On 5/4/2013 3:12 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"tom" napisal w wiadomosci
. ..
On 5/1/2013 3:47 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:

You simply do not know that:
"In electronic circuit theory, a "ground" is usually idealized as an
infinite source or sink for charge, which can absorb an unlimited amount
of
current without changing its potential." and,

But the "ground" you are referring to in this paragraph is NOT the one you
are in the next. One is an essentially infinite sink, and the other
ignores that property entirely.

So you are arguing with yourself here.

The both paragraph are wrote by the same Author.

Yes, but they are not about the same thing. Which you obviously didn't
get, because you are using search engines to make your arguments instead
of a brain.

tom
K0TAR