Rhon tower bolts
 

While on the subject of tower bolts, why does Rohn 25g tower use two
differant size bolts on the legs ?



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On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 19:55:05 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:
While on the subject of tower bolts, why does Rohn 25g tower use two
differant size bolts on the legs ?

My first thought was that it would promote more activity in r.r.a.a.
But, then I realized the Rohn 25G predates the internet!! HI!HI!

Jonesy W3DHJ

Rhon tower bolts
 

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
m...
While on the subject of tower bolts, why does Rohn 25g tower use two
differant size bolts on the legs ?


Perhaps it is because on the smaller cross-sectional component, the
larger bolt would not leave enough structural metal?

(sight unseen)

Rhon tower bolts
 

"gareth" wrote in message
...
"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
m...
While on the subject of tower bolts, why does Rohn 25g tower use two
differant size bolts on the legs ?


Perhaps it is because on the smaller cross-sectional component, the
larger bolt would not leave enough structural metal?

(sight unseen)


Actually, just googled for the beastie; wow!

Do you left-pondians need to get planning or zonal permission for such
things as we do here in the land that is still plagued by the Normano-Viking
invaders and their spawn?

There is an engineering compromise in choosing bolt sizes for tower leg applications. You want to go with large bolts for more strength in bolt shear. You want to go with small bolts so the tower leg retains most of its strength . . . every bit of material removed by the drill bit for tower leg bolt holes weakens the tower leg a little more.

I suspect that using two of the smaller size bolts would not provide enough bolt shear and using two of the larger size would weaken the joint too much / A good compromise is to use two different sizes of bolts in each leg.

I also asked why they used fine thread bolts in 25G but not in 45G or 55G.
Again, the decision was made so long ago that nobody remembers why . .

I have used coarse thread bolts in 25G many times with absolutely no problems. Coarse thread bolts have the advantage that they can be "mechanically galvanized" rather than plated.

25G tower leg bolts are well known to rust after a relatively short time exposed to the elements.

45G and 55G bolts are coarse threaded and hot dip galvanized and hold up much better in the weather.

Hot dip galvanized threads tend to fill up with zinc during the hot dip
galvanizing process and sometimes the nuts won't go on without removing some of the galvanization or galling.

Mechanically galvanized bolts hold up like hot dipped bolts but work smoothly like plated bolts, but mechanically galvanized bolts for 25G are necessarily coarse threaded, rather than fine threaded and plated - like supplied by Rohn.

Rhon tower bolts
 

"gareth" wrote in message
...
Do you left-pondians need to get planning or zonal permission for such
things as we do here in the land that is still plagued by the
Normano-Viking
invaders and their spawn?


It all depends on where the station is located at in the US. I live in
North Carolina and out from the city. There is no requirement in the county
I live in for any kind of permit for a ham tower. About 8 years ago I put
up a 60 foot tower and did not need any permits or any other offical paper
work.

I am thinking the FCC limits the tower to 200 feet and some restrictioins if
near an airport in all parts of the country.

Some areas you can not put up a tower of any kind, and some areas need to
have permits and limit the tower to how tall it can be. Some areas require
some enginering paperwork to make sure the tower will not fall under
ordinary use.



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"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
...

"gareth" wrote in message
...
Do you left-pondians need to get planning or zonal permission for such
things as we do here in the land that is still plagued by the
Normano-Viking
invaders and their spawn?


It all depends on where the station is located at in the US. I live in
North Carolina and out from the city. There is no requirement in the
county I live in for any kind of permit for a ham tower. About 8 years
ago I put up a 60 foot tower and did not need any permits or any other
offical paper work.

Green eyes of envy from this side of the pond

Are my eyes shining bright enough to attempt a Morse QSO? :-)

Rhon tower bolts
 

On 1/17/2014 10:35 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"gareth" wrote in message
...
Do you left-pondians need to get planning or zonal permission for such
things as we do here in the land that is still plagued by the
Normano-Viking
invaders and their spawn?


It all depends on where the station is located at in the US. I live in
North Carolina and out from the city. There is no requirement in the county
I live in for any kind of permit for a ham tower. About 8 years ago I put
up a 60 foot tower and did not need any permits or any other offical paper
work.

I am thinking the FCC limits the tower to 200 feet and some restrictioins if
near an airport in all parts of the country.

Some areas you can not put up a tower of any kind, and some areas need to
have permits and limit the tower to how tall it can be. Some areas require
some enginering paperwork to make sure the tower will not fall under
ordinary use.



Actually, the FCC doesn't limit towers to 200'. But anything over 200'
has to be lighted and registered so it can appear on air navigation
charts. Then there are all kinds of other hassles like ensuring the
lights are always working at nighttime and having to climb a tower in 10
degree F weather with a 20mph wind (on the ground) to replace a burned
out light bulb (I know - I had to do it when I was young and stupid and
worked on towers :) ).

For most hams, it's just not worth the hassle.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle

==================

Rhon tower bolts
 

"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
...

Actually, the FCC doesn't limit towers to 200'. But anything over 200'
has to be lighted and registered so it can appear on air navigation
charts. Then there are all kinds of other hassles like ensuring the
lights are always working at nighttime and having to climb a tower in 10
degree F weather with a 20mph wind (on the ground) to replace a burned out
light bulb (I know - I had to do it when I was young and stupid and worked
on towers :) ).


Over here, we have always been limited to 50' within half a mile of any
aerodrome,
but that does not imply local authority permission for anything up to that
height!

Rhon tower bolts
 

On 1/17/2014 12:22 PM, gareth wrote:
"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
...

Actually, the FCC doesn't limit towers to 200'. But anything over 200'
has to be lighted and registered so it can appear on air navigation
charts. Then there are all kinds of other hassles like ensuring the
lights are always working at nighttime and having to climb a tower in 10
degree F weather with a 20mph wind (on the ground) to replace a burned out
light bulb (I know - I had to do it when I was young and stupid and worked
on towers :) ).


Over here, we have always been limited to 50' within half a mile of any
aerodrome,
but that does not imply local authority permission for anything up to that
height!



Yes, there are additional limitations when close to airports, heliports,
etc. But rather than a fixed height like you have, ours varies
depending on the distance from the airport or heliport, and the size of
the longest runway of the airport. It varies from 25:1 (1 foot of
height for every 25 feet away) ratio for heliports to 100:1 for large
airports.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

Rhon tower bolts
 

On 1/15/2014 4:55 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
While on the subject of tower bolts, why does Rohn 25g tower use two
differant size bolts on the legs ?



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Obviously none of the respondents have had to mate two obstinate
sections of Rohn 25g together.

The smaller hole is for a drift to force the sections into alignment so
the larger bolt can be installed. Then you have an empty hole just right
for a smaller bolt. I suppose it adds a little strength to the joint,
but not much.

Paul, KD7HB

Rhon tower bolts
 

"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
...

Actually, the FCC doesn't limit towers to 200'. But anything over 200'
has to be lighted and registered so it can appear on air navigation
charts. Then there are all kinds of other hassles like ensuring the

You are correct on the limit. I knew I remembered something about 200 feet
but did not recall it correctly.

In the US it seems that you can put up whatever you can afford. Most of the
hams I know have towers from about 40 to 60 feet. A few at 100 to 120. It
all depends on where you are at as to the local and state rules. If you
move into some housing developments they can have a rule of no outside
antenna. Some towns and counties have rules that you can put up a 40 or 50
foot tower.

I talked to one ham on the air and he told me that he lived in a development
and it speciffically stated there could not be any rules on the towers. The
man that started that development was a ham.

In the county I live in there are no rules at this time, but some housing
developments have them and you sort of have to give up your rights to lots
of things if you move in there. I made sure that when I bought a house there
were no rules other than the ones of the state or county.
I only went to 60 feet of tower because that was about the ammount of money
I had to spend and it was as far up as I wanted to climb. I am not afraid
of heights, but not in the physical condition to climb any higher and do
much after I get there.

For Gareth , here is the federal rules from the ARRL website. While the
rules keep the states from making some unreasonable rules, it does not apply
to housing develompnet areas where you sign away your rights if you want to
move into that area.

§97.15 Station antenna structures.

(a) Owners of certain antenna structures more than 60.96 meters (200 feet)
above ground level at the site or located near or at a public use airport
must notify the Federal Aviation Administration and register with the
Commission as required by part 17 of this chapter.

(b) Except as otherwise provided herein, a station antenna structure may be
erected at heights and dimensions sufficient to accommodate amateur service
communications. (State and local regulation of a station antenna structure
must not preclude amateur service communications. Rather, it must reasonably
accommodate such communications and must constitute the minimum practicable
regulation to accomplish the state or local authority's legitimate purpose.
See PRB-1, 101 FCC 2d 952 (1985) for details.)





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Rhon tower bolts
 

"Paul Drahn" wrote in message
...
On 1/15/2014 4:55 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
While on the subject of tower bolts, why does Rohn 25g tower use two
differant size bolts on the legs ?

Obviously none of the respondents have had to mate two obstinate sections
of Rohn 25g together.

The smaller hole is for a drift to force the sections into alignment so
the larger bolt can be installed. Then you have an empty hole just right
for a smaller bolt. I suppose it adds a little strength to the joint, but
not much.

Paul, KD7HB

I have helped install a couple of towers and have done that, but did not
know that was the reason.

Have also used that Tower Jack to help out, but only knew about that in
the last 10 or 15 years.



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On 1/17/2014 12:09 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

"Paul wrote in message
...
On 1/15/2014 4:55 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
While on the subject of tower bolts, why does Rohn 25g tower use two
differant size bolts on the legs ?

Obviously none of the respondents have had to mate two obstinate sections
of Rohn 25g together.

The smaller hole is for a drift to force the sections into alignment so
the larger bolt can be installed. Then you have an empty hole just right
for a smaller bolt. I suppose it adds a little strength to the joint, but
not much.

Paul, KD7HB

I have helped install a couple of towers and have done that, but did not
know that was the reason.

Have also used that Tower Jack to help out, but only knew about that in
the last 10 or 15 years.



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I built a jack a couple of years ago, but have not had a chance to use
it yet.

Paul

Rhon tower bolts
 

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
m...


For Gareth , here is the federal rules from the ARRL website. While the
rules keep the states from making some unreasonable rules, it does not apply
to housing develompnet areas where you sign away your rights if you want to
move into that area.

§97.15 Station antenna structures.

(a) Owners of certain antenna structures more than 60.96 meters (200 feet)
above ground level at the site or located near or at a public use airport
must notify the Federal Aviation Administration and register with the
Commission as required by part 17 of this chapter.

(b) Except as otherwise provided herein, a station antenna structure may be
erected at heights and dimensions sufficient to accommodate amateur service
communications. (State and local regulation of a station antenna structure
must not preclude amateur service communications. Rather, it must reasonably
accommodate such communications and must constitute the minimum practicable
regulation to accomplish the state or local authority's legitimate purpose.
See PRB-1, 101 FCC 2d 952 (1985) for details.)

-----ooooo-----

Interesting (Don't know why Outlook Express hasn't quoted you with ""s.

Perhaps it is the vast spaces in your country and the perceived need for
emergency communications over those distances that extends to you those
privileges?

Rhon tower bolts
 

"gareth" wrote in message
...

Interesting (Don't know why Outlook Express hasn't quoted you with ""s.

Perhaps it is the vast spaces in your country and the perceived need for
emergency communications over those distances that extends to you those
privileges?



That hapens to me sometimes when quoting text. Not sure why part of the
time OE puts in the mark like it is suspose to and about one out of 20
times it will not put it in and I often add it.

I think our contry is more about individual freedom. Most of the time the
laws are written as to what you may not do instead of what you can do.
Unless it is for safety or tax reasons, as long as you are not bothering
anyone else, the rules of the land are not too restrictive. Atleast that is
the way the FCC rules were written for hams.

Much of the country is open spaces, or the land is large enough that a tall
tower will not fall on others property if it does fall.



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"Paul Drahn" wrote in message
...

I built a jack a couple of years ago, but have not had a chance to use it
yet.


I built, or really had one of the guys in the shop where I work help build
one for me just before I put up my tower. Built out of scrap material and
in some spare time. Probably cost them $ 200 worth of labor..hi hi.. I
almost hate retirement ( retired 2 years) as I lost access to small pieces
of material and the equipment and people to help make small things. We had
a machine shop that could make almost anything that was not too complicated.
Couple of lathes, shears, benders, milling machines, and don't remember what
this one machine was called (thinking Iron Man) that could punch holes and
various shapes in steel and do some bending of very thick pieces.



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The towers do not always have to be lighted above 200' nor painted.

WVIR's tower is neither!

https://stations.fcc.gov/station-profile/wvir-tv

Rhon tower bolts
 

On 1/17/2014 6:37 PM, Channel Jumper wrote:

The towers do not always have to be lighted above 200' nor painted.

WVIR's tower is neither!

https://stations.fcc.gov/station-profile/wvir-tv



Only if it is sheltered by another structure of greater height.

Otherwise, you are wrong (as usual).

And how do you know how tall it is? Did you get out your trust ruler
and measure it?

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

Rhon tower bolts
 

"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
...
On 1/17/2014 6:37 PM, Channel Jumper wrote:

The towers do not always have to be lighted above 200' nor painted.

WVIR's tower is neither!

https://stations.fcc.gov/station-profile/wvir-tv



Only if it is sheltered by another structure of greater height.

Otherwise, you are wrong (as usual).

And how do you know how tall it is? Did you get out your trust ruler and
measure it?

You can look up the antenna registeration number. It is listed at whatever
height it is. Seem to remember 98 but not sure if feet or meters. It is
also listed to be painted and lighted to some offical antenna regulation.
Does not say if it is actually painted or lighted, just it meets the
standard.



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On 1/17/2014 8:05 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
...
On 1/17/2014 6:37 PM, Channel Jumper wrote:

The towers do not always have to be lighted above 200' nor painted.

WVIR's tower is neither!

https://stations.fcc.gov/station-profile/wvir-tv



Only if it is sheltered by another structure of greater height.

Otherwise, you are wrong (as usual).

And how do you know how tall it is? Did you get out your trust ruler and
measure it?

You can look up the antenna registeration number. It is listed at whatever
height it is. Seem to remember 98 but not sure if feet or meters. It is
also listed to be painted and lighted to some offical antenna regulation.
Does not say if it is actually painted or lighted, just it meets the
standard.



It's 98 meters - but it is shadowed by another tower just east of it
which is higher. Unfortunately, I don't know who owns that tower.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

Rhon tower bolts
 

On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 19:55:05 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:

While on the subject of tower bolts, why does Rohn 25g tower use two
differant size bolts on the legs ?

I guess you mean this collection of bolts?
http://antennapartsoutlet.com/Pages/Products/ROHNPages/R25JBK.html

My guess(tm) is that the larger 5/8" bolts go on the bottom set of
holes, which aligns the tower vertically and carries most of the
vertical load (tower weight). These lower holes are probably drilled
more accurately than the upper holes. The smaller 1/2" bolts fit
loosely into the upper 5/8" holes in case someone didn't bother
drilling the tower and the base with the same distance between bolt
holes, or that the tower legs became bent, stretched, twisted, or
mangled. This is only a guess(tm).

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Rhon tower bolts
 

On 1/17/2014 3:00 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

"Paul wrote in message
...

I built a jack a couple of years ago, but have not had a chance to use it
yet.


I built, or really had one of the guys in the shop where I work help build
one for me just before I put up my tower. Built out of scrap material and
in some spare time. Probably cost them $ 200 worth of labor..hi hi.. I
almost hate retirement ( retired 2 years) as I lost access to small pieces
of material and the equipment and people to help make small things. We had
a machine shop that could make almost anything that was not too complicated.
Couple of lathes, shears, benders, milling machines, and don't remember what
this one machine was called (thinking Iron Man) that could punch holes and
various shapes in steel and do some bending of very thick pieces.



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IronWorker!
Paul, KD7HB

Rhon tower bolts
 

"Paul Drahn" wrote in message
...
, and don't remember what
this one machine was called (thinking Iron Man) that could punch holes
and
various shapes in steel and do some bending of very thick pieces.



IronWorker!

Paul, KD7HB


Thats it. Thanks. Looks like the one in the Wikipedia.

I was an electrician/instrument technician. Got the mechanics to make
anything that was not very simple for me. I was shown a few things about
that Iron worker. The thing I remember the most was it took a while to wind
up and a while to wind down after it was cut off. I watched it a couple of
times, but never used it. The one we had looked to be very old, but built
very strong.
Walked around it for a year or so and finally asked one of the mechanics
what it was. I could do simple things on laths and milling machines, but
not that thing.

Could have used it a few weeks ago when I was making a dual band antenna
mount for my truck. Had to use aluminum and a vice to do some bending. If
I was working, it would have been stainless steel and bent on a brake.



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"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
...
On 1/17/2014 6:37 PM, Channel Jumper wrote:
The towers do not always have to be lighted above 200' nor painted.
WVIR's tower is neither!
https://stations.fcc.gov/station-profile/wvir-tv



And how do you know how tall it is? Did you get out your trust ruler and
measure it?


Cue the old one about how to measure the height of a building with a
barometer, ISTR about 23 ways at the last count!

eg, apart from the obvious one, to time its descent from the top when
dropped under the acceleration of gravity, and finally to go to the
maintenance engineer and offer him the present of a lovely barometer if he'd
let you
look at the architect's drawings!

Rhon tower bolts
 

On 1/18/2014 6:05 AM, gareth wrote:
"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
...
On 1/17/2014 6:37 PM, Channel Jumper wrote:
The towers do not always have to be lighted above 200' nor painted.
WVIR's tower is neither!
https://stations.fcc.gov/station-profile/wvir-tv



And how do you know how tall it is? Did you get out your trust ruler and
measure it?


Cue the old one about how to measure the height of a building with a
barometer, ISTR about 23 ways at the last count!

eg, apart from the obvious one, to time its descent from the top when
dropped under the acceleration of gravity, and finally to go to the
maintenance engineer and offer him the present of a lovely barometer if he'd
let you
look at the architect's drawings!




I guess you landed on your head when you timed how long it took you to
dive off the top of the tower.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

Rhon tower bolts
 

"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
...
On 1/18/2014 6:05 AM, gareth wrote:
"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
...
On 1/17/2014 6:37 PM, Channel Jumper wrote:
The towers do not always have to be lighted above 200' nor painted.
WVIR's tower is neither!
https://stations.fcc.gov/station-profile/wvir-tv
And how do you know how tall it is? Did you get out your trust ruler
and
measure it?
Cue the old one about how to measure the height of a building with a
barometer, ISTR about 23 ways at the last count!
eg, apart from the obvious one, to time its descent from the top when
dropped under the acceleration of gravity, and finally to go to the
maintenance engineer and offer him the present of a lovely barometer if
he'd
let you
look at the architect's drawings!

I guess you landed on your head when you timed how long it took you to
dive off the top of the tower.

You seem to misunderstand the illusion

Rhon tower bolts
 

On 1/18/2014 10:20 AM, gareth wrote:
"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
...
On 1/18/2014 6:05 AM, gareth wrote:
"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
...
On 1/17/2014 6:37 PM, Channel Jumper wrote:
The towers do not always have to be lighted above 200' nor painted.
WVIR's tower is neither!
https://stations.fcc.gov/station-profile/wvir-tv
And how do you know how tall it is? Did you get out your trust ruler
and
measure it?
Cue the old one about how to measure the height of a building with a
barometer, ISTR about 23 ways at the last count!
eg, apart from the obvious one, to time its descent from the top when
dropped under the acceleration of gravity, and finally to go to the
maintenance engineer and offer him the present of a lovely barometer if
he'd
let you
look at the architect's drawings!

I guess you landed on your head when you timed how long it took you to
dive off the top of the tower.

You seem to misunderstand the illusion



Nope, I understood it perfectly.

But you don't seem to understand the difference between 'illusion' and
'allusion'.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

Rhon tower bolts
 

"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
...

But you don't seem to understand the difference between 'illusion' and
'allusion'.

Then hgh time that you grew out of the behaviour of a 5-year-old

Rhon tower bolts
 

On 1/18/2014 11:13 AM, gareth wrote:
"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
...

But you don't seem to understand the difference between 'illusion' and
'allusion'.

Then hgh time that you grew out of the behaviour of a 5-year-old



ROFLMAO!

And you STILL don't understand the difference between 'allusion' and
'illusion'. But then I know you don't like your ignorance to be pointed
out.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

Rhon tower bolts
 

"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
...
On 1/18/2014 11:13 AM, gareth wrote:
"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
...
But you don't seem to understand the difference between 'illusion' and
'allusion'.
Then hgh time that you grew out of the behaviour of a 5-year-old
ROFLMAO!
And you STILL don't understand the difference between 'allusion' and
'illusion'. But then I know you don't like your ignorance to be pointed
out.

Stupid boy.

PLONK!

Rhon tower bolts
 

Has to do with the consequences of being citizens and not subjects.
73, Mac (people left after 1746 massacre) N8TT

"gareth" wrote in message ...

-----ooooo-----



Perhaps it is the vast spaces in your country and the perceived need for
emergency communications over those distances that extends to you those
privileges?

Rhon tower bolts
 

"J. C. Mc Laughlin" wrote in message
.. .
Has to do with the consequences of being citizens and not subjects.
73, Mac (people left after 1746 massacre) N8TT

"gareth" wrote in message ... Perhaps it
is the vast spaces in your country and the perceived need for
emergency communications over those distances that extends to you those
privileges?


Copulate the Great Parasite of Windsor