![]() |
No antennae radiate all the power fed to them!
On 11/1/2014 7:59 PM, wrote:
rickman wrote: On 11/1/2014 5:31 PM, wrote: rickman wrote: On 11/1/2014 1:03 PM, wrote: gareth wrote: Ignoring, for the moment, travelling wave antenna, and restricting discussion to standing wave antennae ... An antenna is an antenna. Deep thoughts... A wave is launched, and radiates SOME of the power, and suffers both I2R losses and dielectric and permeability losses associated with creating and collapsing the near field. Nope, voltage is applied to an antenna causing currents to be created which in turn cause an electromagnetic field to be created. As antennas are made of real materials they have a resistance and the current through that resistance leads to losses. I thought there were *real* materials with no resistance. Isn't that what a superconductor is? Well, to be pendatic, there are no real materials with zero resistance that can be used to build antennas. Why can't you build an antenna with a superconductor? As all the current existing superconductors require a bunch of supporting equipment to keep them cold, they can't be used for antennas. Really? What is the problem? There are super conductors at liquid nitrogen temperatures and you can have that sitting in a flask on your desk. Why couldn't that cool an antenna? Once you remove the I*R losses, you don't even have to worry about the radiated power heating the N2. If one were realy determined to do it, one could build the antenna in a non-metalic container of some sort and keep the container filled with LN2. I think you are confusing need with practicality. There is nothing to stop you from making a superconducting antenna. There just isn't a need for it unless you live in Gareth's world. Hmmm... wasn't that a movie? Gareth's World? It is not need versus practicality, it is practicality period. If room temperature superconductors are ever invented... However, those are like a cure for the common cold, practical fusion power, and peace in the Middle East, all just around the corner for the past half century or so. I've never heard anyone say either a cure for the common cold or fusion was "around" the corner. I've never heard anyone say at all that peace is expected in the middle east. You must not be very old then... No, I'm not, I'm much less than a century old. I believe there are rather cold temperatures in space. A superconducting antenna could be used there with *no* supporting "apparatus". You mean other than the shade screen? You do understand two big problems with space stuff is how to get rid of any generated heat and Solar heating? Is there a lot of solar heating near Jupiter? I didn't realize... In any case, why? I^2R losses only become significant in very small antennas and there is all the space you could ask for in space to build an antenna. You snipped the part of my post that addressed your questions. It would be better if you read posts before trimming them. -- Rick |
No antennae radiate all the power fed to them!
|
No antennae radiate all the power fed to them!
rickman wrote:
On 11/1/2014 7:59 PM, wrote: rickman wrote: On 11/1/2014 5:31 PM, wrote: rickman wrote: On 11/1/2014 1:03 PM, wrote: gareth wrote: Ignoring, for the moment, travelling wave antenna, and restricting discussion to standing wave antennae ... An antenna is an antenna. Deep thoughts... A wave is launched, and radiates SOME of the power, and suffers both I2R losses and dielectric and permeability losses associated with creating and collapsing the near field. Nope, voltage is applied to an antenna causing currents to be created which in turn cause an electromagnetic field to be created. As antennas are made of real materials they have a resistance and the current through that resistance leads to losses. I thought there were *real* materials with no resistance. Isn't that what a superconductor is? Well, to be pendatic, there are no real materials with zero resistance that can be used to build antennas. Why can't you build an antenna with a superconductor? As all the current existing superconductors require a bunch of supporting equipment to keep them cold, they can't be used for antennas. Really? What is the problem? There are super conductors at liquid nitrogen temperatures and you can have that sitting in a flask on your desk. Why couldn't that cool an antenna? Once you remove the I*R losses, you don't even have to worry about the radiated power heating the N2. If one were realy determined to do it, one could build the antenna in a non-metalic container of some sort and keep the container filled with LN2. I think you are confusing need with practicality. There is nothing to stop you from making a superconducting antenna. There just isn't a need for it unless you live in Gareth's world. Hmmm... wasn't that a movie? Gareth's World? It is not need versus practicality, it is practicality period. If room temperature superconductors are ever invented... However, those are like a cure for the common cold, practical fusion power, and peace in the Middle East, all just around the corner for the past half century or so. I've never heard anyone say either a cure for the common cold or fusion was "around" the corner. I've never heard anyone say at all that peace is expected in the middle east. You must not be very old then... No, I'm not, I'm much less than a century old. And I'm the better part of one and heard all of those many times now. I forgot to add true artificial intelligence to the list. I believe there are rather cold temperatures in space. A superconducting antenna could be used there with *no* supporting "apparatus". You mean other than the shade screen? You do understand two big problems with space stuff is how to get rid of any generated heat and Solar heating? Is there a lot of solar heating near Jupiter? I didn't realize... Not a lot but the point is cooling options in space are limited and you said nothing about where in space. In any case, why? I^2R losses only become significant in very small antennas and there is all the space you could ask for in space to build an antenna. You snipped the part of my post that addressed your questions. It would be better if you read posts before trimming them. I snipped nothing when I responded. -- Jim Pennino |
No antennae radiate all the power fed to them!
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 18:47:32 -0400, rickman wrote: I think you are confusing need with practicality. There is nothing to stop you from making a superconducting antenna. There just isn't a need for it unless you live in Gareth's world. Hmmm... wasn't that a movie? Gareth's World? (...) I believe there are rather cold temperatures in space. A superconducting antenna could be used there with *no* supporting "apparatus". You don't need to go to outer space to see cryogenic radios in operation. You can see space a lot better with a cryogenic radio. -- Jim Pennino |
No antennae radiate all the power fed to them!
rickman wrote:
On 11/1/2014 8:18 PM, wrote: Wayne wrote: snip I was going to point out to Gareth that he is describing behavior in an antenna system, not an antenna. I doubt he will EVER understand the difference. But, I'm done now. No more. It does become tiresome correcting the same nonsense over and over again. Then there is no need at all to reply, no? Other than to prevent a casual reader from thinking his nonsense is reality, not really. Well, that and I really have a thing about deflating long winded gas bags. -- Jim Pennino |
No antennae radiate all the power fed to them!
On 11/2/2014 1:24 AM, wrote:
rickman wrote: On 11/1/2014 7:59 PM, wrote: rickman wrote: On 11/1/2014 5:31 PM, wrote: rickman wrote: On 11/1/2014 1:03 PM, wrote: gareth wrote: Ignoring, for the moment, travelling wave antenna, and restricting discussion to standing wave antennae ... An antenna is an antenna. Deep thoughts... A wave is launched, and radiates SOME of the power, and suffers both I2R losses and dielectric and permeability losses associated with creating and collapsing the near field. Nope, voltage is applied to an antenna causing currents to be created which in turn cause an electromagnetic field to be created. As antennas are made of real materials they have a resistance and the current through that resistance leads to losses. I thought there were *real* materials with no resistance. Isn't that what a superconductor is? Well, to be pendatic, there are no real materials with zero resistance that can be used to build antennas. Why can't you build an antenna with a superconductor? As all the current existing superconductors require a bunch of supporting equipment to keep them cold, they can't be used for antennas. Really? What is the problem? There are super conductors at liquid nitrogen temperatures and you can have that sitting in a flask on your desk. Why couldn't that cool an antenna? Once you remove the I*R losses, you don't even have to worry about the radiated power heating the N2. If one were realy determined to do it, one could build the antenna in a non-metalic container of some sort and keep the container filled with LN2. I think you are confusing need with practicality. There is nothing to stop you from making a superconducting antenna. There just isn't a need for it unless you live in Gareth's world. Hmmm... wasn't that a movie? Gareth's World? It is not need versus practicality, it is practicality period. If room temperature superconductors are ever invented... However, those are like a cure for the common cold, practical fusion power, and peace in the Middle East, all just around the corner for the past half century or so. I've never heard anyone say either a cure for the common cold or fusion was "around" the corner. I've never heard anyone say at all that peace is expected in the middle east. You must not be very old then... No, I'm not, I'm much less than a century old. And I'm the better part of one and heard all of those many times now. I forgot to add true artificial intelligence to the list. I believe there are rather cold temperatures in space. A superconducting antenna could be used there with *no* supporting "apparatus". You mean other than the shade screen? You do understand two big problems with space stuff is how to get rid of any generated heat and Solar heating? Is there a lot of solar heating near Jupiter? I didn't realize... Not a lot but the point is cooling options in space are limited and you said nothing about where in space. lol. No, cooling in space is very easy. Heat radiates quite well. That's why they can power the electronics with RTGs so well. In any case, why? I^2R losses only become significant in very small antennas and there is all the space you could ask for in space to build an antenna. You snipped the part of my post that addressed your questions. It would be better if you read posts before trimming them. I snipped nothing when I responded. You are right, it is all there. -- Rick |
No antennae radiate all the power fed to them!
rickman wrote in :
What? For a wave to have a "bulge" above the top of the tank means there is a trough well below the top of the tank. The amount of liquid does not change because you make waves in the tank. I didn't say it did. Anyway, I've been looking at images on Google, apparently the single half-wave form is concave in a tank of liquid, not convex. Maybe that too is possible, I don't know. If it is, then you can add liquid to what was a brim-fill tank before it overflows once the wave is set up, which would indicate that a form of storage has been set up. Look at it another way... Any standing wave shape in a tank will not be flat, and when the small amount of energy maintaining it is stopped, it will give back energy until it is flat, so it looks like a way to store energy. A 'tank ciruit' has to have a way to store energy too. (As to why I go into these apparently off-topic variations, it's because I think a person can know something by being very specific, but probably cannot understand it unless they look at as many other things as possible in which similar action occurs.) |
No antennae radiate all the power fed to them!
Jeff Liebermann wrote in
: Not quite. If you apply energy to a resonant circuit (electrical or mechanical), that then remove the input, you'll get a damped wave (i.e. exponential decay) output where the rate of decay is determined by the losses in the system. You could build a transmission line oscillator, which would exhibit some rather small damped wave output when turned off, but in most cases, there's no connection with reflected or standing waves because there is usually no transmission line. Well, doesn't that still mean there's energy there to power that decay? I get the exponential bit (had to explore that a lot to code a synth. :) so the energy never entirely vanishes, sort of like half-life in fissile materials. Point taken about usually no transmission line. I remember CB'ers talking of SWR meters and aiming for as little standing wave as possible. That seems to go with what Jim (Pennino) said about not having a standing wave without a transmission line. Might as well be part of the problem. What I do in my spare time. I recorded these in about 1998. Please forgive my screwups, plagerism, lack of coherent style, sloppy fingering, etc: http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/music/ Nice. Though you do what I tend to do, caught in a singular sort of chord sequence, expression, whatever it is. I got it from listening to Tangerine Dream. It's a nice trap (and yours is more elegant than mine too) but it is a trap. I found a way out of it though, if I can make the effort and maintain the habit... When walking, I hum, or whistle, and the tunage is far more varied than when I'm in front of an instrument. I have a small USB memoery thinger with audio recording (and annoyingly short battery life) that I usually fail to carry with me. Shame, because a couple of days ago I improvised for about a half hour on a Cuban tune, 'Chan Chan', very effectively, and had never done that before. The more I learn about Beethoven and Schubert, the more I hear about how good they were at improvisation! Most people seem to think that 'vclassical' was all ablout written formalism. Of course it wasn't... it was closer to jazz in the sense that it was about capturing improvisation. Their skill was in doing exactly that. Mozart heard Allegri's 'Misereri' at one sitting, and recalled enough to write it down later. I can't do that, but with a bit of technical help (if I can be bothered to persist in using it), I might make a few things, at least enough to test the instrument I'm trying to byuild. :) I have no web storage, but if you're interested I can try to put three of four bits into a Usenet test binary group somewhere.. They're not very elaborate, just a few very varied ideas. |
No antennae radiate all the power fed to them!
rickman wrote in :
I believe there are rather cold temperatures in space. A superconducting antenna could be used there with *no* supporting "apparatus". There's still such a thing as radiation resistance, I think, so it wouldn't stay cold even there. Given the size of a body, there's a limit to how fast it can get rid of heat at a given temperature.. I don't know the proper terminology for it though. Anyway, at low tenperature, the rate it can radiate heat is low, so it will quickly warm up out of low-temp superconducting state. |
All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:00 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
RadioBanter.com