Parallel coax
 

In message , Wayne
writes


"Ian Jackson" wrote in message ...

In message , rickman
writes
On 9/30/2015 12:57 PM, John S wrote:
On 9/30/2015 10:12 AM, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , Jeff writes
On 29/09/2015 14:31, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/29/2015 4:40 AM, Jeff wrote:


So let's get back to the original question. Was it ever really
answered? I think it was made slightly more complicated by the fact
that the antenna feedpoint impedance was not purely resistive, but was
actually around 20-j130 (at 14 MHz),

Was there any advantage in having the coax paralleled (both for 20
ohms resistive, and for 20-j130)?

A quick model.

A vertical antenna about 4.2m long with a wire radius of 0.5mm
approximates to what you have . The devil is in the j130 If you use a
1.5uH series L the SWR for the parallel 50ohm line is 1.19: 1 and not a
bad match over the band

Expanding on the original question.... Antenna feedpoint approximately
20-j130
The ATU drives the antenna through about 15 feet of coax.
Assuming that the ATU provides a +j130 conjugate match, does that leave
the coax with a SWR of 50/20= 2.5:1?
If so, then I will not bother with considering 2 parallel coax.

No the line SWR is still about 36:1. If you run a bit of poke, you might
melt the coax.

If you want a single 50 ohm feed, extend the antenna to 5.7m ( ~50+
j87) and use a series C ~130pf to take out the the +j87. You have to
do this at the antenna end.

It goes without saying you need a good ground.

Brian

--
Brian Howie

Parallel coax
 

On 10/1/2015 4:24 AM, Jeff wrote:

Does your online calculator include cable loss and velocity factor? I
used .0233dB/m and .66 velocity factor with a length of 4.57m. Sorry for
the metric numbers, but that's what my chart uses.

How do any of those things enter into the VSWR calculation? VSWR is
defined solely by the match of the cable and antenna impedances.

I don't know much about the calculator I used, some random online thing.

http://chemandy.com/calculators/retu...calculator.htm


Yes they do have an effect.

Cable loss will improve the VSWR as the cable gets longer and the loss
increases so the VSWR reduces.

You are referring to the VSWR at the ATU rather than at the antenna?
John already mentioned that.


The velocity factor determines how long the cable appears electrically
compared to the physical length.

The calculator that you linked to takes no account of the cable length
and what the mismatch, or vswr, at the load looks like at the other end
of a length of cable.

If the cable impedance matched the system impedance, 50 ohms in this
case, and it were totally lossless then the VSWR at the tx end of the
cable would be the same as at the antenna end, BUT the phase of the
mismatch would change, ie your -j120 could end up as being +j120 or
anywhere in between depending on cable length.

Now if the feeder is an impedance other than 50 ohms it act as a
transformer and both the real and imaginary parts of the impedance seen
at the Tx end will change. Depending on length and what impedance the
feeder is it may or may not improve things.

Jeff




--

Rick

Parallel coax
 

On 10/1/2015 3:29 AM, Brian Howie wrote:
In message , Wayne
writes


"Ian Jackson" wrote in message
...

In message , rickman
writes
On 9/30/2015 12:57 PM, John S wrote:
On 9/30/2015 10:12 AM, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , Jeff
writes
On 29/09/2015 14:31, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/29/2015 4:40 AM, Jeff wrote:


So let's get back to the original question. Was it ever really
answered? I think it was made slightly more complicated by the fact
that the antenna feedpoint impedance was not purely resistive, but
was actually around 20-j130 (at 14 MHz),

Was there any advantage in having the coax paralleled (both for 20
ohms resistive, and for 20-j130)?

A quick model.

A vertical antenna about 4.2m long with a wire radius of 0.5mm
approximates to what you have . The devil is in the j130 If you use a
1.5uH series L the SWR for the parallel 50ohm line is 1.19: 1 and not a
bad match over the band

Expanding on the original question.... Antenna feedpoint
approximately 20-j130
The ATU drives the antenna through about 15 feet of coax.
Assuming that the ATU provides a +j130 conjugate match, does that
leave the coax with a SWR of 50/20= 2.5:1?
If so, then I will not bother with considering 2 parallel coax.

No the line SWR is still about 36:1. If you run a bit of poke, you might
melt the coax.

If you want a single 50 ohm feed, extend the antenna to 5.7m ( ~50+
j87) and use a series C ~130pf to take out the the +j87. You have to
do this at the antenna end.

It goes without saying you need a good ground.

Brian

What do you think of this while leaving his antenna unchanged?

2.3uH
___
'-----o-----UUU---------------
.-. | ^
| | | |
20 | | C| '
'-' C| 4uH
| C| 50 ohms
| |
--- | .
-130--- | |
| | v
'-----o------------------------
(created by AACircuit v1.28.6 beta 04/19/05 www.tech-chat.de)

Parallel coax
 

In message , John S
writes
On 10/1/2015 3:29 AM, Brian Howie wrote:
In message , Wayne
writes


"Ian Jackson" wrote in message
...

In message , rickman
writes
On 9/30/2015 12:57 PM, John S wrote:
On 9/30/2015 10:12 AM, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , Jeff
writes
On 29/09/2015 14:31, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/29/2015 4:40 AM, Jeff wrote:


So let's get back to the original question. Was it ever really
answered? I think it was made slightly more complicated by the fact
that the antenna feedpoint impedance was not purely resistive, but
was actually around 20-j130 (at 14 MHz),

Was there any advantage in having the coax paralleled (both for 20
ohms resistive, and for 20-j130)?

A quick model.

A vertical antenna about 4.2m long with a wire radius of 0.5mm
approximates to what you have . The devil is in the j130 If you use a
1.5uH series L the SWR for the parallel 50ohm line is 1.19: 1 and not a
bad match over the band

Expanding on the original question.... Antenna feedpoint
approximately 20-j130
The ATU drives the antenna through about 15 feet of coax.
Assuming that the ATU provides a +j130 conjugate match, does that
leave the coax with a SWR of 50/20= 2.5:1?
If so, then I will not bother with considering 2 parallel coax.

No the line SWR is still about 36:1. If you run a bit of poke, you might
melt the coax.

If you want a single 50 ohm feed, extend the antenna to 5.7m ( ~50+
j87) and use a series C ~130pf to take out the the +j87. You have to
do this at the antenna end.

It goes without saying you need a good ground.

Brian

What do you think of this while leaving his antenna unchanged?

2.3uH
___
'-----o-----UUU---------------
.-. | ^
| | | |
20 | | C| '
'-' C| 4uH
| C| 50 ohms
| |
--- | .
-130--- | |
| | v
'-----o------------------------
(created by AACircuit v1.28.6 beta 04/19/05 www.tech-chat.de)


Yes that works too. Lots of ways to do it.

Brian
--
Brian Howie

Parallel coax
 

On 10/1/2015 11:56 AM, Brian Howie wrote:
In message , John S
writes
On 10/1/2015 3:29 AM, Brian Howie wrote:
In message , Wayne
writes


"Ian Jackson" wrote in message
...

In message , rickman
writes
On 9/30/2015 12:57 PM, John S wrote:
On 9/30/2015 10:12 AM, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , Jeff
writes
On 29/09/2015 14:31, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/29/2015 4:40 AM, Jeff wrote:


So let's get back to the original question. Was it ever really
answered? I think it was made slightly more complicated by the fact
that the antenna feedpoint impedance was not purely resistive, but
was actually around 20-j130 (at 14 MHz),

Was there any advantage in having the coax paralleled (both for 20
ohms resistive, and for 20-j130)?

A quick model.

A vertical antenna about 4.2m long with a wire radius of 0.5mm
approximates to what you have . The devil is in the j130 If you use a
1.5uH series L the SWR for the parallel 50ohm line is 1.19: 1 and not a
bad match over the band

Expanding on the original question.... Antenna feedpoint
approximately 20-j130
The ATU drives the antenna through about 15 feet of coax.
Assuming that the ATU provides a +j130 conjugate match, does that
leave the coax with a SWR of 50/20= 2.5:1?
If so, then I will not bother with considering 2 parallel coax.

No the line SWR is still about 36:1. If you run a bit of poke, you might
melt the coax.

If you want a single 50 ohm feed, extend the antenna to 5.7m ( ~50+
j87) and use a series C ~130pf to take out the the +j87. You have to
do this at the antenna end.

It goes without saying you need a good ground.

Brian

What do you think of this while leaving his antenna unchanged?

2.3uH
___
'-----o-----UUU---------------
.-. | ^
| | | |
20 | | C| '
'-' C| 4uH
| C| 50 ohms
| |
--- | .
-130--- | |
| | v
'-----o------------------------
(created by AACircuit v1.28.6 beta 04/19/05 www.tech-chat.de)


Yes that works too. Lots of ways to do it.

Brian

Oh, yes of course. I try to avoid capacitors as much as I can because
one end can float with static voltage while an inductor does not. I've
had issues with nearby static lightning discharges.

Just my paranoia. To each his own.

Parallel coax
 

On 10/1/2015 1:09 PM, John S wrote:
On 10/1/2015 11:56 AM, Brian Howie wrote:
In message , John S
writes
On 10/1/2015 3:29 AM, Brian Howie wrote:
In message , Wayne
writes


"Ian Jackson" wrote in message
...

In message , rickman
writes
On 9/30/2015 12:57 PM, John S wrote:
On 9/30/2015 10:12 AM, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , Jeff
writes
On 29/09/2015 14:31, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/29/2015 4:40 AM, Jeff wrote:


So let's get back to the original question. Was it ever really
answered? I think it was made slightly more complicated by the fact
that the antenna feedpoint impedance was not purely resistive, but
was actually around 20-j130 (at 14 MHz),

Was there any advantage in having the coax paralleled (both for 20
ohms resistive, and for 20-j130)?

A quick model.

A vertical antenna about 4.2m long with a wire radius of 0.5mm
approximates to what you have . The devil is in the j130 If you use a
1.5uH series L the SWR for the parallel 50ohm line is 1.19: 1 and
not a
bad match over the band

Expanding on the original question.... Antenna feedpoint
approximately 20-j130
The ATU drives the antenna through about 15 feet of coax.
Assuming that the ATU provides a +j130 conjugate match, does that
leave the coax with a SWR of 50/20= 2.5:1?
If so, then I will not bother with considering 2 parallel coax.

No the line SWR is still about 36:1. If you run a bit of poke, you
might
melt the coax.

If you want a single 50 ohm feed, extend the antenna to 5.7m ( ~50+
j87) and use a series C ~130pf to take out the the +j87. You have to
do this at the antenna end.

It goes without saying you need a good ground.

Brian

What do you think of this while leaving his antenna unchanged?

2.3uH
___
'-----o-----UUU---------------
.-. | ^
| | | |
20 | | C| '
'-' C| 4uH
| C| 50 ohms
| |
--- | .
-130--- | |
| | v
'-----o------------------------
(created by AACircuit v1.28.6 beta 04/19/05 www.tech-chat.de)


Yes that works too. Lots of ways to do it.

Brian

Oh, yes of course. I try to avoid capacitors as much as I can because
one end can float with static voltage while an inductor does not. I've
had issues with nearby static lightning discharges.

Just my paranoia. To each his own.

But it is connected by a 20 ohm resistor. How bad can that be?

--

Rick

Parallel coax
 

On 10/1/2015 12:18 PM, rickman wrote:
On 10/1/2015 1:09 PM, John S wrote:
On 10/1/2015 11:56 AM, Brian Howie wrote:
In message , John S
writes
On 10/1/2015 3:29 AM, Brian Howie wrote:
In message , Wayne
writes


"Ian Jackson" wrote in message
...

In message , rickman
writes
On 9/30/2015 12:57 PM, John S wrote:
On 9/30/2015 10:12 AM, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , Jeff
writes
On 29/09/2015 14:31, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/29/2015 4:40 AM, Jeff wrote:


So let's get back to the original question. Was it ever really
answered? I think it was made slightly more complicated by the fact
that the antenna feedpoint impedance was not purely resistive, but
was actually around 20-j130 (at 14 MHz),

Was there any advantage in having the coax paralleled (both for 20
ohms resistive, and for 20-j130)?

A quick model.

A vertical antenna about 4.2m long with a wire radius of 0.5mm
approximates to what you have . The devil is in the j130 If you use a
1.5uH series L the SWR for the parallel 50ohm line is 1.19: 1 and
not a
bad match over the band

Expanding on the original question.... Antenna feedpoint
approximately 20-j130
The ATU drives the antenna through about 15 feet of coax.
Assuming that the ATU provides a +j130 conjugate match, does that
leave the coax with a SWR of 50/20= 2.5:1?
If so, then I will not bother with considering 2 parallel coax.

No the line SWR is still about 36:1. If you run a bit of poke, you
might
melt the coax.

If you want a single 50 ohm feed, extend the antenna to 5.7m ( ~50+
j87) and use a series C ~130pf to take out the the +j87. You have to
do this at the antenna end.

It goes without saying you need a good ground.

Brian

What do you think of this while leaving his antenna unchanged?

2.3uH
___
'-----o-----UUU---------------
.-. | ^
| | | |
20 | | C| '
'-' C| 4uH
| C| 50 ohms
| |
--- | .
-130--- | |
| | v
'-----o------------------------
(created by AACircuit v1.28.6 beta 04/19/05 www.tech-chat.de)


Yes that works too. Lots of ways to do it.

Brian

Oh, yes of course. I try to avoid capacitors as much as I can because
one end can float with static voltage while an inductor does not. I've
had issues with nearby static lightning discharges.

Just my paranoia. To each his own.

But it is connected by a 20 ohm resistor. How bad can that be?


I don't understand. Do you mean the antenna's feed point resistance of
20 ohms? My understanding of the installation is that the antenna is not
directly connected to ground. Am I off track here?

Parallel coax
 

On 10/1/2015 1:21 PM, John S wrote:
On 10/1/2015 12:18 PM, rickman wrote:
On 10/1/2015 1:09 PM, John S wrote:
On 10/1/2015 11:56 AM, Brian Howie wrote:
In message , John S
writes
On 10/1/2015 3:29 AM, Brian Howie wrote:
In message , Wayne
writes


"Ian Jackson" wrote in message
...

In message , rickman
writes
On 9/30/2015 12:57 PM, John S wrote:
On 9/30/2015 10:12 AM, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , Jeff
writes
On 29/09/2015 14:31, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/29/2015 4:40 AM, Jeff wrote:


So let's get back to the original question. Was it ever really
answered? I think it was made slightly more complicated by the fact
that the antenna feedpoint impedance was not purely resistive, but
was actually around 20-j130 (at 14 MHz),

Was there any advantage in having the coax paralleled (both for 20
ohms resistive, and for 20-j130)?

A quick model.

A vertical antenna about 4.2m long with a wire radius of 0.5mm
approximates to what you have . The devil is in the j130 If you use a
1.5uH series L the SWR for the parallel 50ohm line is 1.19: 1 and
not a
bad match over the band

Expanding on the original question.... Antenna feedpoint
approximately 20-j130
The ATU drives the antenna through about 15 feet of coax.
Assuming that the ATU provides a +j130 conjugate match, does that
leave the coax with a SWR of 50/20= 2.5:1?
If so, then I will not bother with considering 2 parallel coax.

No the line SWR is still about 36:1. If you run a bit of poke, you
might
melt the coax.

If you want a single 50 ohm feed, extend the antenna to 5.7m ( ~50+
j87) and use a series C ~130pf to take out the the +j87. You
have to
do this at the antenna end.

It goes without saying you need a good ground.

Brian

What do you think of this while leaving his antenna unchanged?

2.3uH
___
'-----o-----UUU---------------
.-. | ^
| | | |
20 | | C| '
'-' C| 4uH
| C| 50 ohms
| |
--- | .
-130--- | |
| | v
'-----o------------------------
(created by AACircuit v1.28.6 beta 04/19/05 www.tech-chat.de)


Yes that works too. Lots of ways to do it.

Brian

Oh, yes of course. I try to avoid capacitors as much as I can because
one end can float with static voltage while an inductor does not. I've
had issues with nearby static lightning discharges.

Just my paranoia. To each his own.

But it is connected by a 20 ohm resistor. How bad can that be?


I don't understand. Do you mean the antenna's feed point resistance of
20 ohms? My understanding of the installation is that the antenna is not
directly connected to ground. Am I off track here?

My bad. I didn't realize that was the antenna. But the capacitor could
be bypassed with a large value resistor if static charge is your
concern. A kohm should do the job without impacting the circuit
significantly. But wait! Isn't the -130 cap also the antenna then?

--

Rick

Parallel coax
 

In message , John S
writes
On 10/1/2015 11:56 AM, Brian Howie wrote:
In message , John S
writes
On 10/1/2015 3:29 AM, Brian Howie wrote:
In message , Wayne
writes


"Ian Jackson" wrote in message
...

In message , rickman
writes
On 9/30/2015 12:57 PM, John S wrote:
On 9/30/2015 10:12 AM, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , Jeff
writes
On 29/09/2015 14:31, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/29/2015 4:40 AM, Jeff wrote:


So let's get back to the original question. Was it ever really
answered? I think it was made slightly more complicated by the fact
that the antenna feedpoint impedance was not purely resistive, but
was actually around 20-j130 (at 14 MHz),

Was there any advantage in having the coax paralleled (both for 20
ohms resistive, and for 20-j130)?

A quick model.

A vertical antenna about 4.2m long with a wire radius of 0.5mm
approximates to what you have . The devil is in the j130 If you use a
1.5uH series L the SWR for the parallel 50ohm line is 1.19: 1 and not a
bad match over the band

Expanding on the original question.... Antenna feedpoint
approximately 20-j130
The ATU drives the antenna through about 15 feet of coax.
Assuming that the ATU provides a +j130 conjugate match, does that
leave the coax with a SWR of 50/20= 2.5:1?
If so, then I will not bother with considering 2 parallel coax.

No the line SWR is still about 36:1. If you run a bit of poke, you might
melt the coax.

If you want a single 50 ohm feed, extend the antenna to 5.7m ( ~50+
j87) and use a series C ~130pf to take out the the +j87. You have to
do this at the antenna end.

It goes without saying you need a good ground.

Brian

What do you think of this while leaving his antenna unchanged?

2.3uH
___
'-----o-----UUU---------------
.-. | ^
| | | |
20 | | C| '
'-' C| 4uH
| C| 50 ohms
| |
--- | .
-130--- | |
| | v
'-----o------------------------
(created by AACircuit v1.28.6 beta 04/19/05 www.tech-chat.de)


Yes that works too. Lots of ways to do it.

Brian

Oh, yes of course. I try to avoid capacitors as much as I can because
one end can float with static voltage while an inductor does not. I've
had issues with nearby static lightning discharges.

Just my paranoia. To each his own.

Good point.

Brian
--
Brian Howie

Parallel coax
 

On 10/1/2015 12:27 PM, rickman wrote:
On 10/1/2015 1:21 PM, John S wrote:
On 10/1/2015 12:18 PM, rickman wrote:
On 10/1/2015 1:09 PM, John S wrote:
On 10/1/2015 11:56 AM, Brian Howie wrote:
In message , John S
writes
On 10/1/2015 3:29 AM, Brian Howie wrote:
In message , Wayne
writes


"Ian Jackson" wrote in message
...

In message , rickman
writes
On 9/30/2015 12:57 PM, John S wrote:
On 9/30/2015 10:12 AM, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , Jeff

writes
On 29/09/2015 14:31, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/29/2015 4:40 AM, Jeff wrote:


So let's get back to the original question. Was it ever really
answered? I think it was made slightly more complicated by the
fact
that the antenna feedpoint impedance was not purely resistive, but
was actually around 20-j130 (at 14 MHz),

Was there any advantage in having the coax paralleled (both for 20
ohms resistive, and for 20-j130)?

A quick model.

A vertical antenna about 4.2m long with a wire radius of 0.5mm
approximates to what you have . The devil is in the j130 If you
use a
1.5uH series L the SWR for the parallel 50ohm line is 1.19: 1 and
not a
bad match over the band

Expanding on the original question.... Antenna feedpoint
approximately 20-j130
The ATU drives the antenna through about 15 feet of coax.
Assuming that the ATU provides a +j130 conjugate match, does that
leave the coax with a SWR of 50/20= 2.5:1?
If so, then I will not bother with considering 2 parallel coax.

No the line SWR is still about 36:1. If you run a bit of poke, you
might
melt the coax.

If you want a single 50 ohm feed, extend the antenna to 5.7m ( ~50+
j87) and use a series C ~130pf to take out the the +j87. You
have to
do this at the antenna end.

It goes without saying you need a good ground.

Brian

What do you think of this while leaving his antenna unchanged?

2.3uH
___
'-----o-----UUU---------------
.-. | ^
| | | |
20 | | C| '
'-' C| 4uH
| C| 50 ohms
| |
--- | .
-130--- | |
| | v
'-----o------------------------
(created by AACircuit v1.28.6 beta 04/19/05 www.tech-chat.de)


Yes that works too. Lots of ways to do it.

Brian

Oh, yes of course. I try to avoid capacitors as much as I can because
one end can float with static voltage while an inductor does not. I've
had issues with nearby static lightning discharges.

Just my paranoia. To each his own.

But it is connected by a 20 ohm resistor. How bad can that be?


I don't understand. Do you mean the antenna's feed point resistance of
20 ohms? My understanding of the installation is that the antenna is not
directly connected to ground. Am I off track here?

My bad. I didn't realize that was the antenna. But the capacitor could
be bypassed with a large value resistor if static charge is your
concern. A kohm should do the job without impacting the circuit
significantly. But wait! Isn't the -130 cap also the antenna then?


Yes. I guess I should have enclosed the combination in a box to
represent the antenna. Sorry.