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TV antenna question..........
Hello,
I hope I'm in the right newsgroup.......... I am totally remodeling my house. The walls are gutted down to the studs. I want to run any and all appropriate wires and cables before the drywall goes up. I want to receive UHF and VHF TV signals for my TV. Most people now get their signals via cable or satellite. I would be happy with just six channels or so. What kind of cable should I run ? What type of amplifier should I have ? Rotor type ? What are good antenna brands ? Model numbers ? Anything else ? Thanks, Hank |
hey hank channel master makes a good ant and amp also you can by
the coax from wal.mart cheaper the rat shack one more thing are you in the country or city is you tv sations close by . get the ant high as you can |
"Hank" wrote in message
... Hello, I hope I'm in the right newsgroup.......... I am totally remodeling my house. The walls are gutted down to the studs. I want to run any and all appropriate wires and cables before the drywall goes up. I want to receive UHF and VHF TV signals for my TV. Most people now get their signals via cable or satellite. I would be happy with just six channels or so. What kind of cable should I run ? What type of amplifier should I have ? Rotor type ? What are good antenna brands ? Model numbers ? Anything else ? Thanks, Hank NO, not the correct group for TV, satellite TV or home cabling ... try rec.video.satellite.tvro or comp.dcom.cabling or http://www.remotecentral.com/cgi-bin.../list.cgi?2130 Home cabling today (computer network, TV, etc) is referred to as structured wiring. http://electrical.bobvila.com/Article/371.html http://electrical.bobvila.com/Article/372.html http://www.ehow.com/how_12212_make-pre-wiring.html http://www.tvidish.com/builders.html Remember that "off the air" VHF/UHF analog signals are due to be replaced by Digital TV over the next 4 years. I would wire for satellite cabling standards, if you don't have a local CATV company. DIY TV cabling http://www.dba.org.au/uploads/docume...0802_amend.pdf http://www.smarthome.com/coaxcable.html Some other links http://www.satellitetv-hq.com/hqguid...l#installation http://www.starkelectronic.com/ The other choice is to just pull the plastic tubing for the cable (with a pull string) and pull the cabling later -- without ripping up your walls. Check with local building and inspection codes for acceptance in your area. http://www.phonegeeks.com/wirforfut.html TIA-570-A Grades of Cabling Service Grade 1 Cabling Requirements Grade 2 Cabling Requirements Telephone (1) 4-Pair category 3 (1) 4-Pair category 5 Optional (1) 4-Pair category 5 Optional (2) 4-Pair category 5 Television (1) 75-ohm Coax (1) 75-ohm Coax Optional (2) 75-ohm Coax Data (1) 4-Pair category 3 (1) 4-Pair category 5 Optional (1) 4-Pair category 5 Optional (2) Optical Fiber Multimedia Not Accommodated (1) 4-Pair category 5 Optional (2) Optical Fiber Benefits to Homeowners Homeowners or tenants are exploring the full spectrum of residential technologies available today and most certainly will continue to do so in the future. Entertainment, security and environmental controls are only a few of the highly desirable attributes being sought by homeowners and tenants. In addition, there are other convenience offerings and features, e.g., energy-efficiency, high performance in-home networking, internal or external digital video/audio systems to name a few. Enhanced capabilities for SOHO's, Internet access or telecommuting are obvious, and are among additional benefits to be enjoyed by residential users, all enabled by a TIA-570-A infrastructure in the home. |
Hi Hank
Since your doing a full gut rehab anyhow! Here are a few ideas that we often do during upscale renovations. The cost is negligible before the walls go up. In the den, we run a 3/4 PVC conduit from a pull box in the den, both upwards to the attic and downwards to the basement for future unknown technological advances. We sometimes do the same thing in the master bedroom. All homes are daisy chain wired to every room with two 4 wire telephone and two 6 wire shielded cable each in their respective pullboxes, plus from the central utility area two 75 ohm coax are run to a pullbox in each room. In addition to the AC electric, from the utility area we often install low voltage DC wiring to bathrooms, bedrooms, hallways, etc. for emergency lighting. And on rare occasions piping for oxygen to master bedroom, kitchen and den. And the security service wiring to doors and windows. And the zone controls for HVAC, etc. If you intend on having a hobby room, it's nice to have it vented and plumbed as a wet bar as well. Now, if your a HAM! Don't forget the SHACK, hi hi, it should have the very BEST of all amenities and grounded cable routes, etc. TTUL Gary |
"Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr." wrote in message
... Hi Hank Since your doing a full gut rehab anyhow! Here are a few ideas that we often do during upscale renovations. The cost is negligible before the walls go up. In the den, we run a 3/4 PVC conduit from a pull box in the den, both upwards to the attic and downwards to the basement for future unknown technological advances. We sometimes do the same thing in the master bedroom. All homes are daisy chain wired to every room with two 4 wire telephone and two 6 wire shielded cable each in their respective pullboxes, plus from the central utility area two 75 ohm coax are run to a pullbox in each room. Gary The usage of a pathway (conduit, etc.) is always a good idea for future additions for your structure home cabling (especially heavily used areas) "Daisy chaining" is NO longer the acceptable physical installation practice for home structured cabling (EIA/TIA 570-A standard). This was the practice by the Bell Operating companies for telephone cabling before its breakup in 1984 .. and is mentioned as a legacy method used before the adoption of the EIA/TIA standards. The standard also addresses 75 ohm video cabling (TV, etc.) as well as have foundation standards (568 and 569) more suited for larger commercial or business installations. The standardized practice for structure cabling in new installations (and remodeling or major retro-fits) is for "home-run" wiring from each outlet from a central location (cabling in a physical star topology) with a distance limitation of no more than 100 meters from equipment to the telecommunications outlet. BICSI also performs certification of structured cabling installers (electricians, contractors) for both residential and commercial installations. Do a Google search on EIA/TIA 570-A ; structured cabling or BICSI and you will find the necessary information. The major cabling vendors (Leviton, Systemax(old AT&T cable), etc.) also have this pertinent information. I only point this out, since I am a professional consultant in this area --- and find the "daisy chain" approach for physical cable installation still practiced and approved by municipalities and contractors ... UNAWARE of these standards ... now 10 years old and reviewed on an annual basis through the EIA and TIA organizations. gb |
On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 15:18:40 GMT, w9gb hath writ:
"Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr." wrote in message ... Hi Hank Since your doing a full gut rehab anyhow! Here are a few ideas that we often do during upscale renovations. The cost is negligible before the walls go up. In the den, we run a 3/4 PVC conduit from a pull box in the den, both upwards to the attic and downwards to the basement for future unknown technological advances. We sometimes do the same thing in the master bedroom. All homes are daisy chain wired to every room with two 4 wire telephone and two 6 wire shielded cable each in their respective pullboxes, plus from the central utility area two 75 ohm coax are run to a pullbox in each room. The usage of a pathway (conduit, etc.) is always a good idea for future additions for your structure home cabling (especially heavily used areas) "Daisy chaining" is NO longer the acceptable physical installation practice for home structured cabling (EIA/TIA 570-A standard). This was the practice by the Bell Operating companies for telephone cabling before its breakup in 1984 .. and is mentioned as a legacy method used before the adoption of the EIA/TIA standards. The standard also addresses 75 ohm video cabling (TV, etc.) as well as have foundation standards (568 and 569) more suited for larger commercial or business installations. The standardized practice for structure cabling in new installations (and remodeling or major retro-fits) is for "home-run" wiring from each outlet from a central location (cabling in a physical star topology) with a distance limitation of no more than 100 meters from equipment to the telecommunications outlet. BICSI also performs certification of structured cabling installers (electricians, contractors) for both residential and commercial installations. Do a Google search on EIA/TIA 570-A ; structured cabling or BICSI and you will find the necessary information. The major cabling vendors (Leviton, Systemax(old AT&T cable), etc.) also have this pertinent information. I only point this out, since I am a professional consultant in this area --- and find the "daisy chain" approach for physical cable installation still practiced and approved by municipalities and contractors ... UNAWARE of these standards ... now 10 years old and reviewed on an annual basis through the EIA and TIA organizations. I second the comment daisy chaining telco wiring. Several months ago I did a self-install of DSL here. And, from past 'projects' putting in 'extra' phones in various rooms, I knew the hay-wire daisy chain scheme I had (circa. 1977) -- going all 'round the attic -- thence to the finished basement and snaking through the stud walls there. What I ended up doing was installing my own NIB (Network Interface Box) just downstream from the telco NIB. There I installed a DSL filter on the daisy chain line headed for attic. Ahead of the DSL filter I installed a new line and pulled it into the home office. Not a lick of trouble with DSL since day 1. Going the other route: installing DSL filters at each outlet along the daisy chain did *not* give me a warm and fuzzy feeling. I felt there would still be plenty of opportunity for RF noise to get into the long daisy chain (read: random wire antenna) -- which would degrade the DSL operation. Too, I was concerned about the interaction (both ways) between the DSL signals and my amateur radio activity. Just last week I did a DSL install for a small, local real estate office -- two agents and a receptionist -- 3 PC's (that were here-to-fore freestanding.) They had a punch-down block in the basement for 2 'voice' lines and 1 'fax' line -- with separate lines running off to phones and fax. Simple install: I installed a DSL filter on the fax line (the line carrying DSL) right at the punch-down block -- breaking out a new, short line to the DSL modem/router and hub thingies which I mounted on a shelf close by. From there it was 'simple' to pull CAT-5 cable to each of the 3 PC's upstairs. I'd say: pay the telco to put in a punch-down block -- and run two lines in from the street or alley (even if you only plan on using 1 line -- now.) Then run 2-pair from 'everywhere' in the house to the punch-down block -- but tie back (store) the ones that are not (yet) in use. HTH Jonesy -- | Marvin L Jones | jonz | W3DHJ | linux | Gunnison, Colorado | @ | Jonesy | OS/2 __ | 7,703' -- 2,345m | config.com | DM68mn SK |
"Allodoxaphobia" wrote in message
... On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 15:18:40 GMT, w9gb hath writ: "Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr." wrote in message ... I second the comment daisy chaining telco wiring. Several months ago I did a self-install of DSL here. And, from past 'projects' putting in 'extra' phones in various rooms, I knew the hay-wire daisy chain scheme I had (circa. 1977) -- going all 'round the attic -- thence to the finished basement and snaking through the stud walls there. What I ended up doing was installing my own NIB (Network Interface Box) just downstream from the telco NIB. There I installed a DSL filter on the daisy chain line headed for attic. Ahead of the DSL filter I installed a new line and pulled it into the home office. Not a lick of trouble with DSL since day 1. [snip] HTH Jonesy -- Yes, one DSL filter at the "head-end" or entrance panel can address all of the distribution issues with DSL. In fact, I prefer to keep the DSL modem and router AT the head end. Surplus network equipment that is more than adequate for home networking is almost being given away these days. I live the Leviton system, but have used others, as well as the original plywood backer board and 66-block / 110 block installations Leviton has a very good book (Adobe Acrobat that anyone can download) that should be required reading for the planning stages. It's normally $ 10 BUT the downloadable Acrobat copy is FREE Covers ALL of the diagrams and techniques the are compatible with the EIA/TIA standards. This is a MUST for your local building contractor or DIY installer. http://www.levitonvoicedata.com/learning/wiring.asp Wiring Strategies Installation Guide (its a 2 Mb file) http://www.levitonvoicedata.com/lear...strategies.pdf w9gb |
"Hank" wrote in message
... Hello, I hope I'm in the right newsgroup.......... I am totally remodeling my house. The walls are gutted down to the studs. I want to run any and all appropriate wires and cables before the drywall goes up. I want to receive UHF and VHF TV signals for my TV. Most people now get their signals via cable or satellite. I would be happy with just six channels or so. Thanks, Hank The difference between RG-6 and RG-59 coaxial cable What's the difference between RG-6 and RG-59 Cable? RG-6 and RG-59 are two types of coaxial cables that can be used with F-type connectors for the distribution of RF signals for cable TV (CATV) and satellite (broadband), and BNC connectors for closed-circuit environments and data transmission (baseband). RG-59 is a lower grade of coaxial cable, consisting of a small center conductor, a small insulating dielectric, and typically, a single outer shield. It delivers acceptable performance for all of the above-mentioned applications. RG-6, on the other hand, has a larger center conductor, a dual or quad shield, and a much larger insulating dielectric, thus ensuring more bandwidth and a lower frequency loss per foot. It delivers exceptional performance for the above-mentioned applications, and is considered the cable of choice for digital TV. |
"Hank" wrote in message
... Hello, I hope I'm in the right newsgroup.......... I am totally remodeling my house. The walls are gutted down to the studs. I want to run any and all appropriate wires and cables before the drywall goes up. I want to receive UHF and VHF TV signals for my TV. Most people now get their signals via cable or satellite. I would be happy with just six channels or so. Thanks, Quality 3/4" exterior grade plywood can easily serve as a centralized wiring center (TV, telephone, computer network) for service demarcations and termination point for the house wiring (coax, UTP and fiber), in some cases -- space or esthetics dictate other approaches or solutions for a centralized wiring center. When you do not have no basement, need a "flush mounting" cabinet (that fits between standard 16" stud construction) and have esthetic considerations within the house ..... I like to install and use the Leviton Structured Media Center. http://www.levitonvoicedata.com/cata...uildPageID=223 I installed one of these Leviton enclosures last year at my brother's home (1-story ranch) which was built in the mid-1990s. Leviton SMC enclosures are available at Home Depot, Lowes and numerous electrical distributors that carry Leviton (e.g. TriState Electronics, Mt. Prospect, IL). Installed the Leviton model 420 (large unit) flush in his garage wall. This larger enclosure allows for the eventual incorporation of a security system and a whole house audio/sound system. Today, the SMC supports two Category 5e unshielded twisted pair (UTP) cables and 1 RG-6/U quad shielded coax cable terminated at a telecommunications outlet (every room of the house). Specific room locations (e.g. video/sound media center, home office/computer area; large family room) were wired with additional jacks or outlets to accommodate specific equipment needs, future growth and the ability to move furniture within large rooms (and hide cables). The installation was standardized on telecommunication outlets from Leviton's QuickPort Decora Multimedia Insert collection. This matched the existing Leviton Decora electrical switches and outlets (in both color and design - esthetic considerations) throughout the house. I primarily used the 4-port inserts with some 2 and 3 port inserts at specific locations of the house for specific usage. Complete installation took about one week (2003 Thanksgiving week): Maintain all telephone, CATV, home network and Internet services during installation (This does contribute to the longer installation timeline) Installation work could only be performed between 9 AM and 5 PM, with mandatory clean-up tasks at 4:30 PM (This was due to the week chosen and specific hosting and family commitments) Rough in Leviton Structured Media Center (SMC) Pull new Category 5e cables (about 24 runs) Pull new Quad shielded RG-6/U coax (about 12 runs) Reroute high quality CATV cables for reuse (3 runs). Route all cabling through attic space and establish primary cable pathways within attic space (minimizing pathways adjacent to home electrical cabling) Install multimedia (coax) 3x8 distribution unit (supports satellite, cable and video inputs) New service drops (CATV) to SMC from 2 local providers (Newnan Utilities and Charter cable) New electrical circuit run for main circuit breaker box (power to the SMC) Reroute Bell South telephone drop and demarcation to SMC enclosure Remove original owner's Quad (obsolete 4-wire) telephone cabling throughout house. Former owner was a building contractor who installed existing cabling infrastructure (He was clueless on structured cabling or standards). BTW, if you get DSL services many Baby Bells will not support internal quad cabling .. and either wire to specific point or advise you to rewire the house. Remove existing (poor quality) RG-59 coax and distribution (splitter) system. Full 100 Mb (Fast Ethernet) home network and CATV services are supported throughout house, with 802.11(b) "WiFi" capabilities added this past summer. The only way to go, a "Plug-n-Play" house. w9gb |
Hi gb
I agree! I also was not quite clear in my statements either. We only daisy chain each rooms telephone circuits from a central locatiion using loops in the pullboxes, having blank cover plates over those pullboxes until it is decided which one will suffice for the room furniture layout. For computer we usually use the 75 ohm cable direct to the central area for internet, and for internal networking the 6 wire cable is used. It too runs from each room to the central area. If the internal network only goes to rooms B and D only those two connections are made in the central area. In my house I have a shielded twisted pair going to each room, in each room it is daisy chained to all possible outlets, at least 1 on each wall, in some cases two on a couple of the walls. Unless it was used at one time, there are no connections within the pull boxes. However one decides to handle their wiring and extra's it's better to have and not need than to not have at all. Price is also a consideration! Running 6 telephone lines from a central area to each room in the home can get quite expensive and overly redundant for most home installations. In addition, some cities charge 10 to 13 bucks extra on the permits for each pullbox installed, even when those pullboxes are used for non-permit required applications. In my old house we had 46 outlets in the kitchen. As if 46 were not enough already, the inspector required that we install 4 more additional outlets in areas we considered to be very hazardous to have outlets at all. And sure enough, one of the extra duplexes we had to add, became a constant torment to us. Not from usage, its 'required' location was in a place where it was continually damaged and required regular replacement. Another was in a location where water was splashed on it several times. But you cannot fight the STUPIDITY of City Hall! TTUL Gary |
"Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr." wrote in message
... Hi gb I agree! I also was not quite clear in my statements either. We only daisy chain each rooms telephone circuits from a central locatiion using loops in the pullboxes, having blank cover plates over those pullboxes until it is decided which one will suffice for the room furniture layout. For computer we usually use the 75 ohm cable direct to the central area for internet, and for internal networking the 6 wire cable is used. It too runs from each room to the central area. If the internal network only goes to rooms B and D only those two connections are made in the central area. In my house I have a shielded twisted pair going to each room, in each room it is daisy chained to all possible outlets, at least 1 on each wall, in some cases two on a couple of the walls. Unless it was used at one time, there are no connections within the pull boxes. However one decides to handle their wiring and extra's it's better to have and not need than to not have at all. Price is also a consideration! Running 6 telephone lines from a central area to each room in the home can get quite expensive and overly redundant for most home installations. In addition, some cities charge 10 to 13 bucks extra on the permits for each pullbox installed, even when those pullboxes are used for non-permit required applications. [snip] TTUL Gary I would like to know which municipality or government entity these building codes (permit charges) are coming from. Category 5e cable is very inexpensive and the number of telecommunication outlets does not change -- whether daisy-chained or home-run. Daisy chaining STP cable just introduces potential ground loops, since no single ground potential point is established (grounding section of NEC and EIA/TIA), Luckily as long as the contractor does not staple the wire continuous along the studs (just at the "rough-in" plate) .. these nuisances are relatively easy to correct. Who taught you this physical cabling method? It is also contrary to BICSI certifications. The National Electrical Code has been changed to reflect the EIA/TIA standards for structured cabling and often takes precedence over local codes, UNLESS the local code is more stringent or specific for fire,health,safety reasons. For example, although ROMEX is permitted under code, DuPage county (IL) as well as city of Chicago strictly forbid its usage for electrical wiring. This stems from tragic fires and safety (e.g. 1959 elementary school fire in Chicago with large loss of life) gb |
Thanks for the link, that was very timely. I am days away from closing on a second house, where my existing bedroom shop will migrate to. I've always greatly preferred homerunning everything, even back in my alarm days, in the late 70's. Much easier to debug, much fewer problems. I will need to do phones, cable, cat5, and some misc control signals. I have a wiring panel coming, and a bunch of 66 blocks :) Brings back the good old days. Some of my resedential alarms filled a 4x8 sheet on the wall, and had dedicated rooms. Doubly or triply redundant systems, with multiple sensing technologies, supervised wiring, phone and wireless reporting. Those were the days. |
"Dave VanHorn" wrote in message
... Thanks for the link, that was very timely. I am days away from closing on a second house, where my existing bedroom shop will migrate to. I've always greatly preferred homerunning everything, even back in my alarm days, in the late 70's. Much easier to debug, much fewer problems. I will need to do phones, cable, cat5, and some misc control signals. I have a wiring panel coming, and a bunch of 66 blocks :) Brings back the good old days. Some of my resedential alarms filled a 4x8 sheet on the wall, and had dedicated rooms. Doubly or triply redundant systems, with multiple sensing technologies, supervised wiring, phone and wireless reporting. Those were the days. Dave, Here are some photos of a local install (not mine) for TC and phone ( 10 years old now) http://www.schmitzhouse.com/images/Video%20Dist.jpg I was not a fan of placing this block on a joist (who wants to look up all day) http://www.schmitzhouse.com/Johns_Electronics_03.htm His house inverter construction takes the prize for labor http://www.schmitzhouse.com/Johns_Electronics_02.htm Greg http://www.schmitzhouse.com/Johns_Electronics_03.htm |
His house inverter construction takes the prize for labor http://www.schmitzhouse.com/Johns_Electronics_02.htm Good lord.. Greg http://www.schmitzhouse.com/Johns_Electronics_03.htm nice pix. I'll need to do some cleanup before I can start in earnest, it used to be a rental, and the last tennant left "under duress". Still, it appraises for 20% more than I'm paying. :) I've been in a large bedroom for about 8 years now, but the bedroom seems to have shrunk over time. That, and I air condition 10 months out of the year, due to the surplus of electric heat from the equipment. I'm thinking in terms of a 6" pvc into the attic, some of the cables I need to pull thru are nearly an inch in diameter. I wish I had some from my early days projects, but that would have been kind of a bad idea... Not to mention disallowed in many cases.. The last one I did professionally, was the office of the commander in chief, pacific fleet. Fun doing wiring with an armed marine behind you all day. There was a time that I put 600 phone lines into a residential basement in wisconsin. |
"Dave VanHorn" wrote in message
... His house inverter construction takes the prize for labor http://www.schmitzhouse.com/Johns_Electronics_02.htm Good lord.. Nice pix. I'll need to do some cleanup before I can start in earnest, it used to be a rental, and the last tennant left "under duress". Still, it appraises for 20% more than I'm paying. :) I've been in a large bedroom for about 8 years now, but the bedroom seems to have shrunk over time. That, and I air condition 10 months out of the year, due to the surplus of electric heat from the equipment. I'm thinking in terms of a 6" pvc into the attic, some of the cables I need to pull thru are nearly an inch in diameter. I wish I had some from my early days projects, but that would have been kind of a bad idea... Not to mention disallowed in many cases.. The last one I did professionally, was the office of the commander in chief, pacific fleet. Fun doing wiring with an armed marine behind you all day. There was a time that I put 600 phone lines into a residential basement in Wisconsin. In commercial installs, (multi-story high rises) I used two 4" sleeves (three sleeves on some of the lower floors) between wiring closets on the floors. For residential, I usually use two or three runs of 2 inch schedule 40 PVC electrical conduit (schedule 80 when required) and one of two runs of 1 inch PVC conduit. Fits with most stud wall (2x4) construction and 2" is the largest knockout size for the flush mount enclosures (electrical or Leviton's SMC) I keep the RG-6 coax runs in separate conduit from the UTP runs. I save the 1 inch runs for special marked cables (service runs from outdoor demarcations, alarm, etc.) OR for fiber optic cabling. Greg |
In commercial installs, (multi-story high rises) I used two 4" sleeves (three sleeves on some of the lower floors) between wiring closets on the floors. I'd bet few of those had any 1 inch hardline running around :) I keep the RG-6 coax runs in separate conduit from the UTP runs. Hmm.. Why? Shouldn't be any effect either way. |
"Dave VanHorn" wrote in message
... In commercial installs, (multi-story high rises) I used two 4" sleeves (three sleeves on some of the lower floors) between wiring closets on the floors. I'd bet few of those had any 1 inch hardline running around :) I keep the RG-6 coax runs in separate conduit from the UTP runs. Hmm.. Why? Shouldn't be any effect either way. Reduces problems (you never know who will follow you) with pulling future RG-6 cables. Also the bend radius tolerances are different. IF UTP cables are within same pathway the pulling crew has to be more gentle and careful. Now if you have ever worked a large cabling installation ... you know that words "gentle" and "careful" are a foreign language terms to many cabling pulling crews. Although when I have traveled with these crews .. they referred to the airline baggage handlers (pre-9/11) as gorillas (former TV ad of a logistics company). gb |
I keep the RG-6 coax runs in separate conduit from the UTP runs. Hmm.. Why? Shouldn't be any effect either way. Reduces problems (you never know who will follow you) with pulling future RG-6 cables. Also the bend radius tolerances are different. IF UTP cables are within same pathway the pulling crew has to be more gentle and careful. I see.. I never had to work with multiple different types in one pull. Now if you have ever worked a large cabling installation ... you know that words "gentle" and "careful" are a foreign language terms to many cabling pulling crews. VBG! Yes, pull till it parts, and then back off a little. There was this time in the Ala-Moana building, when I was installing coax for video from the first to the 25th floor. We decided to to it from the top down, so somewhere along the way, threading the cables down the core, the end cap came off. A couple floors later, when we went down to take it the next level, we found the raw end sticking inside the cage that surrounds the 440VAC busbars. The other end of the cable was already connected, so that would have been rather exciting on many levels! Although when I have traveled with these crews .. they referred to the airline baggage handlers (pre-9/11) as gorillas (former TV ad of a logistics company). I saw a UAL baggage handler slam a suitcase down on the belt so hard once, that his feet left the ground. I rarely put anything more damagable than clothes in my bags anymore. |
Hi gb
St. Louis County, MO (and several municipalities within same) is who charges additional permit fees for each pull box affixed to the studs or otherwise properly mounted. The wiring codes are vastly different for residential, commercial, schools, hospitals, etc. I know of NO allowance for Romex in any structure other than residential and even in residential usage, conduit is still required in several areas. If I recall correctly, regarding Romex A staple is required within 6 inches of a plastic pull box or 14 inches of a clamped metal pull box. Some inspectors (whether code or not) will require a staple on ALL wiring within 6 inches of the pull box, regardless of what kind of wiring it is. Of course, you know how some inspectors are royal PITA's. It's been over 30 years since I worked my way up the ranks and roughly 10 years since I worked in the field. And even then I only worked in residential. Everything since then was just predication work. TTUL Gary |
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 15:20:50 -0500, Dave VanHorn hath writ:
I'm thinking in terms of a 6" pvc into the attic, some of the cables I need to pull thru are nearly an inch in diameter. Probably a thing that keeps your local fire marshal awake at night. A vertical, non-fireproof chimney (and that's what 6" PVC is) running vertical between floors will facilitate the growth of a small fire on a lower floor into one of catastrophic proportions. Use metal conduit, and stuff some coarse steel wool into the ends after you have run the cables. You, you family, and the fire marshal will sleep better. It's a Real Good Thing to even stuff something like steel wool into overly large holes used to pass smallish cable through sill plates. There was a time that I put 600 phone lines into a residential basement in wisconsin. I think I know the name of that spammer. :-) Regards, Jonesy -- | Marvin L Jones | jonz | W3DHJ | linux | Gunnison, Colorado | @ | Jonesy | OS/2 __ | 7,703' -- 2,345m | config.com | DM68mn SK |
Probably a thing that keeps your local fire marshal awake at night. A vertical, non-fireproof chimney (and that's what 6" PVC is) running vertical between floors will facilitate the growth of a small fire on a lower floor into one of catastrophic proportions. Use metal conduit, and stuff some coarse steel wool into the ends after you have run the cables. You, you family, and the fire marshal will sleep better. In this case, it's from the "laundry room" (now equipment room) of a small 2BR house, into the attic of same. It's a Real Good Thing to even stuff something like steel wool into overly large holes used to pass smallish cable through sill plates. Oh yes, among other things, the heat bill would eat me alive otherwise. There was a time that I put 600 phone lines into a residential basement in wisconsin. I think I know the name of that spammer. :-) Not my site! That site became www.cedar.net I got the lines put in for free, including running them under a freeway, and adding a fiber cabinet near the rail line. :) Our first web server was a SCO box, where I hacked the help system to respond on port 80. That was when web server sw was $10k+ |
"Allodoxaphobia" wrote in message
... On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 15:20:50 -0500, Dave VanHorn hath writ: I'm thinking in terms of a 6" pvc into the attic, some of the cables I need to pull thru are nearly an inch in diameter. Probably a thing that keeps your local fire marshal awake at night. A vertical, non-fireproof chimney (and that's what 6" PVC is) running vertical between floors will facilitate the growth of a small fire on a lower floor into one of catastrophic proportions. Use metal conduit, and stuff some coarse steel wool into the ends after you have run the cables. You, you family, and the fire marshal will sleep better. It's a Real Good Thing to even stuff something like steel wool into overly large holes used to pass smallish cable through sill plates. Good point. I have used fiberglass insulation for both minimizing heat loss and for some firestopping, however you can purchase from many electrical contractors .. firestopping putty (it was a red colored putty when I used it 12 years ago) gb |
"Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr." wrote in message
... Hi gb St. Louis County, MO (and several municipalities within same) is who charges additional permit fees for each pull box affixed to the studs or otherwise properly mounted. OK, that helps ... they should know better .. especially with Emerson Electric in town and that I believe the IBEW started in St. Louis ! The wiring codes are vastly different for residential, commercial, schools, hospitals, etc. I know of NO allowance for Romex in any structure other than residential and even in residential usage, conduit is still required in several areas. For residental yes, but I am seeing less of it even in residental. Much more usage of flexible or rigid conduits .. although metal vs PVC / composites is a religous war in many areas. If I recall correctly, regarding Romex A staple is required within 6 inches of a plastic pull box or 14 inches of a clamped metal pull box. Some inspectors (whether code or not) will require a staple on ALL wiring within 6 inches of the pull box, regardless of what kind of wiring it is. Of course, you know how some inspectors are royal PITA's. Yup, worked under one for while as summer job. Made me a damn perfectionist. Very difficult to buy a house these days (better to close my eyes) It's been over 30 years since I worked my way up the ranks and roughly 10 years since I worked in the field. And even then I only worked in residential. Everything since then was just predication work. It's interesting that since WW2 how the amount of electrical appliances, computer, etc. in residential and SOHO (small home offices) .. that they are looking more like commercial every decade ! gb |
Good point. I have used fiberglass insulation for both minimizing heat loss and for some firestopping, however you can purchase from many electrical contractors .. firestopping putty (it was a red colored putty when I used it 12 years ago) Indeed. Steel wool burns rather nicely, once started. |
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 23:11:11 -0500, Dave VanHorn hath writ:
Good point. I have used fiberglass insulation for both minimizing heat loss and for some firestopping, however you can purchase from many electrical contractors .. firestopping putty (it was a red colored putty when I used it 12 years ago) Indeed. Steel wool burns rather nicely, once started. Kewl, I had never heard of firestopping putty. I assume/hope it can be easily dug out when/if you need to fish new cables. I think I'd like it, too, for it's draft blockage feature Jonesy -- | Marvin L Jones | jonz | W3DHJ | linux | Gunnison, Colorado | @ | Jonesy | OS/2 __ | 7,703' -- 2,345m | config.com | DM68mn SK |
Hi gb
OK, that helps ... they should know better .. especially with Emerson Electric in town and that I believe the IBEW started in St. Louis ! It was hard working in St. Louis, we have so many larger companies and unions controlling the government, that the smaller companies have virtually no chance of getting ahead. For residental yes, but I am seeing less of it even in residental. Much more usage of flexible or rigid conduits .. although metal vs PVC / composites is a religous war in many areas. I still prefer metal myself for indoor, PVC for exposed outdoor and underground installations. I often use conduit even when not called for, especially in attic runs where squirrels, etc. might some day be able to get to the wiring. But within the closed cavity of partition walls, I see no need for conduit, unless you are considering future additions using same. Yup, worked under one for while as summer job. Made me a damn perfectionist. Very difficult to buy a house these days (better to close my eyes) Ain't that the truth! It's interesting that since WW2 how the amount of electrical appliances, computer, etc. in residential and SOHO (small home offices) .. that they are looking more like commercial every decade ! That's one of the reasons for so many outlets in my last home! You may laugh at this, considering it's simple residential wiring. But every bathroom and/or windowless room that I wired, I ran two separate lighting branch circuits to each room(s). If a bathroom had both ceiling lights and vanity lighting, they were wired on separate branch circuits, so one would not be left in the dark if one of the breakers was tripped. Same with long hallways, every other ceiling fixture was on a separate circuit. I think I use more electric in my home/office alone than I do in all the rest of the house, including the kitchen. Color laser printers and copiers are all on dedicated circuits. Computers are on their own dedicated circuits, then all the peripheral components, scanners, hard drives, USB powered ports, etc. all on another separate circuit. The nightmare comes in trying to keep both sides of the bus balanced while keeping spikes from large motors all on one side and away from the computers. TTUL Gary |
"Allodoxaphobia" wrote in message
... On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 23:11:11 -0500, Dave VanHorn hath writ: Kewl, I had never heard of firestopping putty. I assume/hope it can be easily dug out when/if you need to fish new cables. I think I'd like it, too, for it's draft blockage feature Jonesy --- Absolutely, has become a big problem with independent contractors in many building (especially hospitals). When I did a major rewire in the early 1990s (to EIA/TIA specifications), I pulled out so much cable and found so much out of compliance work .. that the engineering department of the hospital thanked me and the legal counseling firm sent me a big gift for reduced risk and potential litigation costs. Fire code comments http://www.bccresearch.com/chem/DFI95.html Caulks and putties for joints and penetrations http://www.na.graceconstruction.com/...=c&did=4&id=96 http://www.rectorseal.com/frstpn2.htm http://www.all-stateproducts.com/html/firestopping.htm |
"Allodoxaphobia" wrote in message
... On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 23:11:11 -0500, Dave VanHorn hath writ: Kewl, I had never heard of firestopping putty. I assume/hope it can be easily dug out when/if you need to fish new cables. I think I'd like it, too, for it's draft blockage feature Jonesy Here is the White Paper from Wiremold http://www.wiremold.com/www/commerci...ex.asp?wpid=13 |
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 23:11:11 -0500, Dave VanHorn hath writ: Kewl, I had never heard of firestopping putty. I assume/hope it can be easily dug out when/if you need to fish new cables. I think I'd like it, too, for it's draft blockage feature Jonesy Wasn't me what writ that part. |
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 00:40:23 -0500, Dave VanHorn hath writ:
Wasn't me what writ that part. sri Jonesy |
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