where does the power when using an antenna-tuner go to ?
 

Hi all,


Months ago, when the C-word was something still something far away in a
distant land, we had a small discussion in our radio-club.
The idea was this: "fundamentals Fridays"(*), a chance to ask questions
on aspects of amateur-radio that we all know that are true, but nobody
seams to be able to explain why exactly they are the way they are.



One of the questions that popped up is this: (although I am not sure of
this is a question about physics or about antennas)


It is "common knowledge" that when using an antenna with an
antenna-tuner, the efficiency of an antenna goes down: the smaller the
size of the antenna compared the wavelength, the less power is emitted
and the more power is "lost in the tuner".

But, why is that?
Where does this "lost" energy go to?




In essence, the goal of an antenna-tuner is to do impedance-matching:
match the impedance of an antenna at a certain frequency to the (50 ohm)
output impedance of the transmitter and the transmission-line. For that,
it uses inductors or capacitors. (although I know that these components
do also have a resistive part, but I think we can ignore this here)


Now, I understand that a capacitor can "store" energy in the electrical
field between the two plates, and an inductor uses electrical fields to
create a current to counter changes in current, ... but why does this
create a "lost" of energy?

In what form is that energy then "lost"? Is it converted to heat? Is it
"emitted"?


I've been reading about the "Radiation resistance" of an antenna (**)
and, although I am not a physicist, I kind-of understand the notion of
the transfer of energy from the momentum of an electron to a photon.

But physical process is at work inside an antenna-tuner?
And to what kind of energy is the "lost power" converted? Heat?

Does an antenna-tuner actually heat up?
(again, ignoring the "resistive" loss of the components of the tuner)




(*) Fundamental Fridays: (c) EEVblog

(**) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_resistance


73
kristoff - ON1ARF

where does the power when using an antenna-tuner go to ?
 

In article , kristoff
wrote:

In essence, the goal of an antenna-tuner is to do impedance-matching:
match the impedance of an antenna at a certain frequency to the (50 ohm)
output impedance of the transmitter and the transmission-line. For that,
it uses inductors or capacitors. (although I know that these components
do also have a resistive part, but I think we can ignore this here)

Kristoff-

Are you over-thinking this? The power is lost in resistance. For a
great mis-match, currents might be very high in the tuner.

Suppose you have a lousy antenna where 50 percent of your power is lost
in the transmission line and tuner. Anyone listening to you would
suffer a 3 DB reduced signal compared to the ideal antenna. That is one
half S-Unit. They probably would not know the difference.

Also your lousy antenna may have a poor pattern, transmitting your
signal in the wrong direction. The tuner can not fix that.

Fred

where does the power when using an antenna-tuner go to ?
 

On Fri, 10 Jul 2020 23:27:37 +0200, kristoff
wrote:

Does an antenna-tuner actually heat up?
(again, ignoring the "resistive" loss of the components of the tuner)

Yada, just ignore whatever you don't like.
w.

where does the power when using an antenna-tuner go to ?
 

Helnut,



On 11/07/2020 10:00, Helmut Wabnig wrote:

Does an antenna-tuner actually heat up?
(again, ignoring the "resistive" loss of the components of the tuner)

Yada, just ignore whatever you don't like.


A tuner has a current flowing through it and it has a resistance so it
to heat up. But that's not the question. Resistive loss is independent
of the frequency.


The question is, .. are the other additional physics effects playing
here that will cause it to "ventilate" energy?


73
kristoff - ON1ARF

where does the power when using an antenna-tuner go to ?
 

HI Fred,


On 11/07/2020 04:57, Fred McKenzie wrote:

In essence, the goal of an antenna-tuner is to do impedance-matching:
match the impedance of an antenna at a certain frequency to the (50 ohm)
output impedance of the transmitter and the transmission-line. For that,
it uses inductors or capacitors. (although I know that these components
do also have a resistive part, but I think we can ignore this here)

Kristoff-

Are you over-thinking this? The power is lost in resistance. For a
great mis-match, currents might be very high in the tuner.

Well, that's the question. (As noted, this is why we called it
"fundamental Fridays" :-) )


The reason I kind-of ignored resistive loss as that component is not
relative to frequency while the efficiency of an antenna+antenna-tuner
system is clearly frequency dependent.


It is however an interesting thought that power-dissipation due to
resistance can be frequency-dependent via its current.

But would this not mean that the efficiency of tuned antenna would be
dependent of the design of the tuner and that a theoretical
antenna-tuner without resistance would have 100 % efficiency.

I have not found this in any documents I have been reading on this.




Suppose you have a lousy antenna where 50 percent of your power is lost
in the transmission line and tuner. Anyone listening to you would
suffer a 3 DB reduced signal compared to the ideal antenna. That is one
half S-Unit. They probably would not know the difference.

OK, but you can just as easy apply this for -say- an antenna for 475 or
137 KHz band where the efficiency of the antenna-system is ... euh ..
less then 50 % (unless you have a very very very big garden :-) )



Also your lousy antenna may have a poor pattern, transmitting your
signal in the wrong direction. The tuner can not fix that.

That's true and if this was the only effect playing here, then an
antenna-tuner would not have a lower efficiency then a fully matched
antenna, just a different radiation-pattern.

But we all learned at the ham-radio academy that a tuned antenna has a
lower efficiency, no?
Or where things wrongly represented at the ham-radio lessons?




I know. We have been chewing on this question for some time too and
so-far have not come up with an answer neither.

Every answer seams to produce as many counter-arguments.
(I guess that what you get from asking "fundamental" questions) :-(







Fred

Kristoff - ON1ARF

where does the power when using an antenna-tuner go to ?
 

kristoff wrote:
The reason I kind-of ignored resistive loss as that component is not
relative to frequency while the efficiency of an antenna+antenna-tuner
system is clearly frequency dependent.

Well, with so many assumptions already cast in stone, there is not
very much to discuss anymore, right?

where does the power when using an antenna-tuner go to ?
 

In article , says...

The reason I kind-of ignored resistive loss as that component is not
relative to frequency while the efficiency of an antenna+antenna-tuner
system is clearly frequency dependent.


It is however an interesting thought that power-dissipation due to
resistance can be frequency-dependent via its current.

But would this not mean that the efficiency of tuned antenna would be
dependent of the design of the tuner and that a theoretical
antenna-tuner without resistance would have 100 % efficiency.




The loss in the tuner is the loss in the components, mostly the
resistance of the coil. It could be some in the capacitors if they are
not a air or vacuum variatables ( switched in capacitors sometimes used)
It could also be in the internal wiring.

Tuners are only optimised over a small band of frequencies and
impedances. If one designs the tuner to be the best at 14 MHz, then the
coil and capacitors will be too large or too small at other frequencies
for optimen power transfer. That is often referred to the Q of the
circuit. YOu start to get larger and larger circulating currents in the
tuner and the losses go up due to the resistance of the coil and wires
in the tuner.

Look at transmitters of the old tube circuits. The plate circuit is
designed for a Q of around 10 to 12. That seems to be the best
compromise between the harmonic reduction and efficency. Go one way and
the losses go down, but the harmonics go up. Go the other way you
reduce the harmonics but the efficeny goes down.

where does the power when using an antenna-tuner go to ?
 

On Fri, 10 Jul 2020 23:27:37 +0200, kristoff
wrote:

Where does this "lost" energy go to?

Mostly into heating the tuner inductors. The Q of the inductors is
the major contributor with skin effect being a close second. That's
why antenna tuners tend to use big fat silver plated conductors.

This T-network antenna tuner simulation might be helpful:
http://fermi.la.asu.edu/w9cf/tuner/tuner.html
Download the tuner.jar file to your machine. Assuming you have a Java
runtime installed, running the program will produce a front panel with
adjustment knobs and VSWR meter. To minimize knob twiddling, it has
an autotune button. You can adjust the component values and coil Q's
with the setup button. The default frequency is in the 160 meter
band, where the effects of coil Q are the worst. With the values
provided (Q = 100), the tuner loss at 1.83Mhz is 2.0dB (36.3%).
Capacitors also have a Q value, but losses from high Q air dielectric
caps are minimal.

Also, by the same author:
"Estimating T-network losses at 80 and 160 meters"
http://fermi.la.asu.edu/w9cf/articles/tuner/index.html

Mo
http://fermi.la.asu.edu/w9cf/index.html


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

where does the power when using an antenna-tuner go to ?
 

On 11/07/2020 14:57, Jim H wrote:
===================================
Antenna Matching Units ( I prefer not to use the word "Tuner") do have
fixed resistance in inductors and wiring as has been stated in this thread.

Frank , EI7KS

where does the power when using an antenna-tuner go to ?
 

Jim H wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jul 2020 18:07:01 +0100, in ,
Jeff wrote:

On 14/07/2020 14:16, wicklowham wrote:
On 11/07/2020 14:57, Jim H wrote:
===================================
Antenna Matching Units ( I prefer not to use the word "Tuner") do have
fixed resistance in inductors and wiring as has been stated in this thread.


No! The amount of inductance varies depending on how much of the
inductor is used, thus the resistance of the unit varies with the
setting. Resistance also varies with frequency since the skin effect
is "deeper" (lower resistance) with lower frequency.

And, the antenna resistance to be matched also varies. When the
antenna is too short it will have a lower resistance, and thus any fixed
losses in tuner and feeder will have a higher relative effect.

All in all it is a completely wrong assumption that the losses will
be independent from frequency, even when te resistive values in the
tuner would be the same.