Reg Edwards wrote:
Your only avenue of escape is to prove the | rho |
meter gives incorrect meter readings.

Nope, your only avenue of escape is to prove that a passive
load can reflect more than the incident power. :-)

By the way, does that Texas vinyard you mentioned have
a website? ;o)

I don't know but I will check. Heck, I might even try a
bottle to see if it's worth sending to you.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:33:56 -0500, Cecil Moore
wrote:

a vast assemblage of text snipped.

Hi Cecil,

So, do you want the bridge description
Or
Not?

This question was even simpler than that of two resistors and the hank
of wire. I can look forward to the amusement of how long a side
thread this may develop into.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Roy Lewallen wrote:
I'll now bow out, unless a coherent alternative analysis, or specific
corrections to the one I posted, are presented.

Heh, heh, just discovered how wrong you are, eh? :-) It was an
easy mistake to make, Roy.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Cecil Moore wrote:

1. The power reflected from the network input back toward the source. |s11|^2

2. The power transmitted through the network port toward the load. |s21|^2

3. The power re-reflected from the network output back toward the load. |s22|^2

4. The power transmitted through the network port toward the source. |s12|^2

These are the four powers you calculated and you consider only |s12|^2 to
be forward power. That is an error. |s22|^2 is also forward power. These
two forward power flow vectors have to be added to obtain the total
forward Poynting vector. I do believe that clears up the confusion.

Was not the discussion about powers on the source side?
Is not |s22|^2 on the load side?

....Keith

wrote:
And yes, |rho| can be greater than unity for a passive load.

But the power reflection coefficient cannot be greater than 1.0
which is what the argument is all about.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Richard Clark wrote:

wrote:

a vast assemblage of text snipped.

Hi Cecil,

So, do you want the bridge description
Or
Not?

Since you snipped my posting, I have no idea what it was all about.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Reg Edwards wrote:

Cecil and others, even authors of books, have said -

- - - - |rho|^2 cannot be greater than 1.0 - - - -

====================================

Would you change your minds if I describe a
reflection-coefficient bridge, which anybody can
construct, which accurately measures values of | rho |
up to its greatest possible value in transmission lines
of 2.414 There's no catch!

I don't think I need to change my mind, but I would like
to see a description of a reflection-coefficient bridge,
if you could be so kind as to post it.

Thanks,

Keith

wrote:

Cecil Moore wrote:

1. The power reflected from the network input back toward the source. |s11|^2

2. The power transmitted through the network port toward the load. |s21|^2

3. The power re-reflected from the network output back toward the load. |s22|^2

4. The power transmitted through the network port toward the source. |s12|^2

These are the four powers you calculated and you consider only |s12|^2 to
be forward power. That is an error. |s22|^2 is also forward power. These
two forward power flow vectors have to be added to obtain the total
forward Poynting vector. I do believe that clears up the confusion.

Was not the discussion about powers on the source side?
Is not |s22|^2 on the load side?

Roy apparently doesn't realize it, but when he introduced 'x' into his
equations, he introduced 2-port analysis terms so, in his math, there are
indeed two powers existing on the load side. That's what got him confused
and he forgot to include those terms in his forward power and reflected
power, i.e. his rP is not all of the reflected power and his fP
is not all of the forward power. It's an easy mistake to make. But to
compound his mistake, he then combined those two terms on the load side,
one reflected and one forward, into one term so it is difficult to determine
which way its power flow vector points.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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What all you experts have forgotten is that SWR on a
lossless line is the ratio of two voltages, max and
min, SPACED APART BY 1/4-WAVELENGTH. That is if the
line is long enough to contain both a max and a min.

When the line is not lossless, ie., it has appreciable
attenuation in dB per 1/4-wavelength, then the ratio is
'distorted' and has a phase angle. So negative values
of indicated SWR can be expected at some values of |
Vmax | / | Vmin |

SWR is calculated from the square of | rho |. As I've
said before, immediately | rho | is squared, half the
information it contains is junked. Any
discussion/argument about power waves following
rho-squared on a lossy (a real ) line is meaningless
piffle.

Anybody who writes books about power waves, selling
them to make a living, is obtaining money under false
pretences.

On the other hand we should be kind to otherwise
unemployed Ph.D's. They too have wive's and kid's to
clothe, feed and provide a roof over their heads.
That's life!
---
Reg.

Reg Edwards wrote:

Roy wrote -
If you have some other "rho" you want to
argue about, please call it something else.

- - - and while you are about it change the name of
the SWR meter.

Trouble is, (Z2-Z1)/(Z2+Z1) is not always equal to Sqrt(Pref/Pfwd)
What then?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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