The answer is no. You should be able to figure out the reason why by
reading the previous postings in this thread.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

wrote:
Just playing devels advocate here, but, as you state "If you put X watts
into one antenna and extract Y watts from an antenna coupled to it, and
measure the efficiency of the "transformer" the same way as you did the
conventional transformer, you'll find it has lousy
efficiency.", does that refer to the 377 ohms (or so) free space coupling
impedence, or could that effeciency be improved by having the antenna's
matched radiation resistance approach that 377 ohms? (I.E. max transfer of
power is at Z0 (in) matches Z0(out)! or, is this academic for this?
Perhaps, better for Dr. Shorza Gitchigoumi of CQ fame, or Larson E. Rapp of
ARRL fame (both with bad habit of only presenting articles in the 4th month
of the year in their respective publications) ! But, I'd thought I had
better ask! Jim NN7K


"Roy Lewallen" wrote in message
...

I hope you'll pardon me for amplifying this a little.

If you put X watts into the primary of a transformer and extract Y watts
from the secondary, the efficiency is Y/X by definition.

If you put X watts into one antenna and extract Y watts from an antenna
coupled to it, and measure the efficiency of the "transformer" the same
way as you did the conventional transformer, you'll find it has lousy
efficiency. Why? Because a goodly fraction of the power you applied to
the "primary" antenna never gets to the "secondary" antenna because it's
radiated instead. As far as the "secondary" is concerned, it might as
well have been converted to heat.

If you look at the impedance of the "primary" antenna, you'll find an
excess of resistance -- just enough, in fact, to account for the "lost"
(radiated) power.

This isn't a statement about how well coupled antennas function as
antennas, whose purpose is to radiate after all. It's a statement about
how well they function as a transformer. Poorly.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Well Cecil what ever you do do not use the word efficiency,
just use the ratio between X and Y fully stating what X is
and Y is. This way the word efficiency need not be used
for a baseless augument. I am very pleased by the way, that you are
not attempting to explain anything new but just educating the masses
on what is already known, and forgotton by the way, and re presenting
the facts of nature in a way everybody can understand that leaves no
room for argument.
If you do find something new present it in such a way that the Gurus
can respond in such a way that it is their idea or they knew it all
along but have just been to busy to write it up.
Send your paper again with the footnote that their previous response
and leadership is what you built upon and which you need further
assistance from them. It should then get printed in a couple of months
and your name printed as a foot note.
I saw a aeroplane crash data box a short time ago only to find that
is not a black "box" as previously stated. Ever thought of designing a
better black "box" to put it in and then become famous in your own
mind? The previous one made of cardboard just didn't work out when
things became all wet.

Best regards
Art
P.S. I misquoted the price of AO pro, the program actually costs $600





or X andW5DXP wrote in message ...
Art Unwin KB9MZ wrote:
Roy, the die was cast years ago when anything "new" was trashed
without a hearing. I now accept that all is now known about antennas
except the really deep things that Cecil is so bravely pushing on with
where I failed.

One slight correction, Art. Because of the similarity between light and
radiated EM waves, most things about antennas are known, at least to the
limit of the models to handle reality.

However, it appears to me that some things have been overlooked when the
coherent EM waves are confined to a one-dimensional transmission line. Those
things that have been overlooked are what I am pursuing and as far as I can
determine, they happen only inside a transmission line or at a thin-film
non-reflective surface using coherent light waves. That's what makes it
special.

That is not to conclude that you haven't discovered something special,
just that my focus is Z0-match points inside transmission lines and
non-glare thin-film coatings involving orthogonal coherent light.

'corse, should have attached the "smiley face" (my cynisicasm is/was on
:) !! ) Jim

"Roy Lewallen" wrote in message
...
The answer is no. You should be able to figure out the reason why by
reading the previous postings in this thread.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

wrote:
Just playing devels advocate here, but, as you state "If you put X watts
into one antenna and extract Y watts from an antenna coupled to it, and
measure the efficiency of the "transformer" the same way as you did the
conventional transformer, you'll find it has lousy
efficiency.", does that refer to the 377 ohms (or so) free space
coupling
impedence, or could that effeciency be improved by having the antenna's
matched radiation resistance approach that 377 ohms? (I.E. max
transfer of
power is at Z0 (in) matches Z0(out)! or, is this academic for this?
Perhaps, better for Dr. Shorza Gitchigoumi of CQ fame, or Larson E. Rapp
of
ARRL fame (both with bad habit of only presenting articles in the 4th
month
of the year in their respective publications) ! But, I'd thought I had
better ask! Jim NN7K


"Roy Lewallen" wrote in message
...

I hope you'll pardon me for amplifying this a little.

If you put X watts into the primary of a transformer and extract Y watts
from the secondary, the efficiency is Y/X by definition.

If you put X watts into one antenna and extract Y watts from an antenna
coupled to it, and measure the efficiency of the "transformer" the same
way as you did the conventional transformer, you'll find it has lousy
efficiency. Why? Because a goodly fraction of the power you applied to
the "primary" antenna never gets to the "secondary" antenna because it's
radiated instead. As far as the "secondary" is concerned, it might as
well have been converted to heat.

If you look at the impedance of the "primary" antenna, you'll find an
excess of resistance -- just enough, in fact, to account for the "lost"
(radiated) power.

This isn't a statement about how well coupled antennas function as
antennas, whose purpose is to radiate after all. It's a statement about
how well they function as a transformer. Poorly.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

On 28 Jul 2003 17:51:18 -0700, (Mark Keith) wrote:

If you think it's a great
idea, use it. The end performance will tell the true story.
As an example, note the "EH" guy. Personally, I think he's on a
misguided turd hunt, but at least he's got the nads to actually build
the crazy looking things.

Hi Mark,

This kinda sounds like the plot to "Parsival," the world's longest
Opera by Wagner.

I would expand further, but me and my buddies are out the door to
escape the heat at the mall's cineplex to see T³.
"I'll be back...."

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Richard Clark wrote:
Hi Tom,

Well I have little to fear of that from this group.

I just saw Gilbert and Sullivan's "The Gondoliers" last Saturday
night, visited the new Opera house the week before (they were setting
up for "Parsival") and have been to more than a few Opera fund drives
in the past year (full dress dinners). Then there were several Balls,
lectures (National Geographic), the Bavarian Symphony (front row,
third balcony - nie wieder!), "42nd Street" and as the King of Siam
would say: "et cetera, et cetera, et cetera." Hardly describes my
calendar for the year.

Back when I was in the film society, we had a hook-up program with the
Opera's Ring Cycle and showed Fritz Lang's "Die Nibelungen." To most
who even recognize either, that wouldn't be so remarkable until you
realize that this was a silent movie. There were quite a number of
"silent" Operas done in the 20's.

Well, T³ was a hoot (and kept us cool to boot). But is
getting too steep for a shorter sequel. The story is rather
derivative from T² (the liquid metal pursuer, even if a girl, is
getting a bit thin). There seems to be a new logic in showing movies
(matches some of the posting tactics I've seen here), if the plot is
wobbly, turn up the volume.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC, past President of the Seattle Film Society

Hi Richard,
If I'm permitted to add a little trivia, Jean and I were in St. Petersburg
earlier this month, where we saw the Russian Kirov Ballet performing
"Gisele' in the Kirov theatre. We also saw the house where Tchaikovsky lived
during his later composing days.

Walt, W2DU

Mark,
A couple of correction before I completely move away from my antenna
Yes I did not got to University, nor did I have a normal schooling in
my childhood since the London was undergoing changes forced upon it by
a man named Hitler
However I do believe that I have gained an education of sorts since I
managed to
meet all academic requirements as a P.E. I came to the States because
of offers that I received (expenses paid)My family sold up after three
months and followed me when it was realised that I ccould not last for
ever on fast food.
Since I workrd for G.E. as a Senior engineer upto retirement I now
lead a comfortable life. The patents that I wrote up on antennas
reflectes my inexperience with the subject but the present write up
should be more readable
when it is finally accepted by the P.T.O. As far as actually making my
antennas
it would be foolhardy not to, including double checking with computor
analysis together with academic review from first principles. All of
the above was done as a hobby to suit myself only as a 'lifeline'
activity after a serious illness. Enough said... my present project is
a 'micky' mouse tuner.
Best Regards
Art

(Mark Keith) wrote in message om...
(Art Unwin KB9MZ) wrote in message
Mark,
Put the whole antenna idea aside The thing could not possibly work, my
activity is a total illusion. If anything new comes along, which is
highly unlikely since all is known,do you really believe it would be
the likes of me to find it?

Many useful inventions have come from people that on the surface, you
would think are surely dumbasses in their fields due to lack of
training. I can think of many right off the top of my head. I don't
think Bill Lear had too much school and training, but he seemed to do
ok as one example. I think he invented the 8 track, along with a few
other aviation related patents. "I think anyway"..
Not to mention cobbling together the jet airplane which is quite
common at airports these days. So this "poor dumb ole Art" crap is not
going to fly far with me. If you feel the antenna would work, I think
you should build it. I would ignore everything everyone says. BUT! I
wouldn't presume to flog others for their lack of "vision", just
because something you don't even use or seemd to have built in real
life is not readily accepted as practical. If you think it's a great
idea, use it. The end performance will tell the true story.
As an example, note the "EH" guy. Personally, I think he's on a
misguided turd hunt, but at least he's got the nads to actually build
the crazy looking things. And this eventually lets others compare them
to tell the true story. Unfortunately, his antenna seems to be
primarily a feedline hanging device. It supports the feedline, which
is the "real" antenna and does the bulk of the radiating. I think a
pully or other hanging device would be about as efficient overall. :/
MK

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:20:58 GMT, "Walter Maxwell"
wrote:

Hi Richard,
If I'm permitted to add a little trivia, Jean and I were in St. Petersburg
earlier this month, where we saw the Russian Kirov Ballet performing
"Gisele' in the Kirov theatre. We also saw the house where Tchaikovsky lived
during his later composing days.

Walt, W2DU

Hi Walt,

Wish I had been there along with you.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Richard Clark wrote:
Hi Tom,

Well I have little to fear of that from this group.

I just saw Gilbert and Sullivan's "The Gondoliers" last Saturday
night, visited the new Opera house the week before (they were setting
up for "Parsival") and have been to more than a few Opera fund drives
in the past year (full dress dinners). Then there were several Balls,
lectures (National Geographic), the Bavarian Symphony (front row,
third balcony - nie wieder!), "42nd Street" and as the King of Siam
would say: "et cetera, et cetera, et cetera." Hardly describes my
calendar for the year.

Back when I was in the film society, we had a hook-up program with the
Opera's Ring Cycle and showed Fritz Lang's "Die Nibelungen." To most
who even recognize either, that wouldn't be so remarkable until you
realize that this was a silent movie. There were quite a number of
"silent" Operas done in the 20's.

Well, T³ was a hoot (and kept us cool to boot). But is
getting too steep for a shorter sequel. The story is rather
derivative from T² (the liquid metal pursuer, even if a girl, is
getting a bit thin). There seems to be a new logic in showing movies
(matches some of the posting tactics I've seen here), if the plot is
wobbly, turn up the volume.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC, past President of the Seattle Film Society

Hi Richard,
If I'm permitted to add a little trivia, Jean and I were in St. Petersburg
earlier this month, where we saw the Russian Kirov Ballet performing
"Gisele' in the Kirov theatre. We also saw the house where Tchaikovsky lived
during his later composing days.

Walt, W2DU



You guys sure know how to lead the good life. I've been reduced, lately, to
sitting around the house reading leather-bound classics.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

"Tdonaly" wrote in message
...

Richard Clark wrote:
Hi Tom,

Well I have little to fear of that from this group.

I just saw Gilbert and Sullivan's "The Gondoliers" last Saturday
night, visited the new Opera house the week before (they were setting
up for "Parsival") and have been to more than a few Opera fund drives
in the past year (full dress dinners). Then there were several Balls,
lectures (National Geographic), the Bavarian Symphony (front row,
third balcony - nie wieder!), "42nd Street" and as the King of Siam
would say: "et cetera, et cetera, et cetera." Hardly describes my
calendar for the year.

Back when I was in the film society, we had a hook-up program with the
Opera's Ring Cycle and showed Fritz Lang's "Die Nibelungen." To most
who even recognize either, that wouldn't be so remarkable until you
realize that this was a silent movie. There were quite a number of
"silent" Operas done in the 20's.

Well, T³ was a hoot (and kept us cool to boot). But is
getting too steep for a shorter sequel. The story is rather
derivative from T² (the liquid metal pursuer, even if a girl, is
getting a bit thin). There seems to be a new logic in showing movies
(matches some of the posting tactics I've seen here), if the plot is
wobbly, turn up the volume.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC, past President of the Seattle Film Society

Hi Richard,
If I'm permitted to add a little trivia, Jean and I were in St.
Petersburg
earlier this month, where we saw the Russian Kirov Ballet performing
"Gisele' in the Kirov theatre. We also saw the house where Tchaikovsky
lived
during his later composing days.

Walt, W2DU



You guys sure know how to lead the good life. I've been reduced, lately,
to
sitting around the house reading leather-bound classics.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Hi Tom,

You've just given me the opening to rub it in a little. We took a three-week
N European Cruise from Dover to LeHavre, Oslo, Copenhagen, Rostock, Gdansk,
Tallinn, St. Petersburg, Helsinki, Stockholm and back to London. One of the
best cruises we've had.

Had a lot of fun with the GPS. It still worked while in Eastern Longitudes.
I got Ian's phone number from Roy, but any time I was available to call him
was an inappropriate time to call him, so I missed him. Roy emailed Reg to
have him email me his address, and I sent him two emails asking for it, but
he never answered. Was hoping to be able to meet them both while in England,
but better luck next time. I hope you're drooling, Tom.

Walt, W2DU

Hi Tom,

You've just given me the opening to rub it in a little. We took a three-week
N European Cruise from Dover to LeHavre, Oslo, Copenhagen, Rostock, Gdansk,
Tallinn, St. Petersburg, Helsinki, Stockholm and back to London. One of the
best cruises we've had.

Had a lot of fun with the GPS. It still worked while in Eastern Longitudes.
I got Ian's phone number from Roy, but any time I was available to call him
was an inappropriate time to call him, so I missed him. Roy emailed Reg to
have him email me his address, and I sent him two emails asking for it, but
he never answered. Was hoping to be able to meet them both while in England,
but better luck next time. I hope you're drooling, Tom.

Walt, W2DU


I certainly am, Walt.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH