On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 03:09:54 GMT, "
wrote:


But Buck that is exactly what I am talking about. Just think about what
types of antenna
can be considered a band opener. Somebody mentioned a 150 foot boom yagi
which tho
it has lots of gain it is at a low height. I suspect the lobe it is
projecting will be around 13 degrees
and the lobe will be fat suchg that the lower portion of the main lobe may
well encompass a 10 degree
signal. Another band opener will be say a three element antenna at a height
of say 150 to 200 feet.
The three element antenna is not a ground shaker but the lobe is made lower
than a normal
height antenna thus even tho the antenna is relative low gain this low gain
is directed at a low angle
say 10 to 11 degrees that can intercept signals just as the band is opening.
Another band opener is vertically stacked three element beams solely
because there is three db
gain to be had purely by stacking that can be added
to the uppermost antenna which also lowers the interception angle area by
virtue of a fatter lobe.
Now look at the band when it is well established, most antennas will now
intercept a lot of the DX signals
but at the same time many of the band opening antennas may well fail to hear
the signals as the signals
may well be coming in at a higher angle which coincides with the null
supplied between the first and
second lobe . In all of this you must take note of what Reg said in that
communicating signals must have the same hop distance which revolves around
lobe interception and not gain. If the lobe intersection of the two stations
vary by say a few hundred miles no amount of extra gain is going to make
communication possible.
I am a member of the RSGB and not the ARRL.

Fair enough, I can't know where everyone is on the internet. On the
air, I get the advantage of having their callsign. I'll be glad to
send you the antenna design if you wish. (I see that isn't your
problem here).


Regards
Art


It appeared to me that you were looking for that lower lobe, not the
higher one when the band opens. The longer the beam, the narrower its
pattern is, and like better the rejection from other directions (f/b,
f/s rejection, etc. I took that as an understood.) )While answering
both you and in part, Roy,)

from the OP:
Fact is that most long distance signals on 20 metres come in at angles
of 11 degrees or less where as the 'normal' antenna has a TOA of around
14 degrees.
end quote.

I was under the impression that you felt a need for designers to find
a lower TOA. closer to ten or eleven degrees. I am confused, there
can be no doubt of that in your minds at this point I am sure . I
do realize that at least in a yagi, as you increase the forward gain
(f/b and s/b ratios), generally by adding elements that it narrows the
forward lobe horizontally and vertically. A 150 foot boom (say 20
elements for example) beam might be perfect for picking up the lower
angle, which is what I thought you were looking for. The three
element beam will bring in higher angle signals as the lobe will have
a higher angle. A dipole will likely have even a higher, possibly a
NVIS angle. As for being quieter, I didn't define it but I mentioned
that the N4GG antenna was much quieter than my dipoles. It also has a
low angle of radiation, which fits very well with what you and Roy are
telling me. It doesn't have a high gain, in fact the designer doesn't
even try to calculate it except to say it is a little higher than a
dipole. He also said it was designed for the DX and not to expect to
chat with many nearby stations.

For a small real estate layout, I imagine that the N4GG can be used
with a dipole or small beam for continuous DX operation. Of course
the N4GG antenna is larger than a dipole. It is one wave long and has
quarter wave legs hanging off it.

.... from the OP
I believe it is time for antenna designers to concentrate less on
obtaining gain and instead concentrate more on lowering the TOA.
without the need of excessive real estate requirements.

Are you looking for a small antenna that will pick up the DX before
the other DX hounds start piling up?


--
Buck
N4PGW

"Buck" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 03:09:54 GMT, "
wrote:


snipArt


It appeared to me that you were looking for that lower lobe, not the
higher one when the band opens. The longer the beam, the narrower its
pattern is, and like better the rejection from other directions (f/b,
f/s rejection, etc. I took that as an understood.) )While answering
both you and in part, Roy,)

from the OP:
Fact is that most long distance signals on 20 metres come in at angles
of 11 degrees or less where as the 'normal' antenna has a TOA of around
14 degrees.
end quote.

I was under the impression that you felt a need for designers to find
a lower TOA. closer to ten or eleven degrees.

Yes, that is exactly what I said and what I mean.We need to get away from
the long boom high gain aproach which cannot be used in many places and
look at other aproaches to getting a lower lobe trajectory with a small
turning radius.
Some will say that is impossible where as I would say it is possible when
open minds
are turned to the task.
Just think of what I could be describing, a 20 metre antenna with a
ten to eleven degree TOA, turning radius of a conventional dipole and a
feed point
of something less than 75 foot high. Now thats good for small real estate
and a light duty rotor
tho the U.K. authority may baulk at the height. I have built very long boom
yagi.s. for 20 M
some with a couple of reflectors and some with as many as 13 elements but
this direction is limited
by minimal advances compared to complexity, thus my statement as to what the
hobby needs
for it to grow
Regards
Art KB9MZ........XG




I am confused, there
can be no doubt of that in your minds at this point I am sure . I
do realize that at least in a yagi, as you increase the forward gain
(f/b and s/b ratios), generally by adding elements that it narrows the
forward lobe horizontally and vertically. A 150 foot boom (say 20
elements for example) beam might be perfect for picking up the lower
angle, which is what I thought you were looking for. The three
element beam will bring in higher angle signals as the lobe will have
a higher angle. A dipole will likely have even a higher, possibly a
NVIS angle. As for being quieter, I didn't define it but I mentioned
that the N4GG antenna was much quieter than my dipoles. It also has a
low angle of radiation, which fits very well with what you and Roy are
telling me. It doesn't have a high gain, in fact the designer doesn't
even try to calculate it except to say it is a little higher than a
dipole. He also said it was designed for the DX and not to expect to
chat with many nearby stations.

For a small real estate layout, I imagine that the N4GG can be used
with a dipole or small beam for continuous DX operation. Of course
the N4GG antenna is larger than a dipole. It is one wave long and has
quarter wave legs hanging off it.

... from the OP
I believe it is time for antenna designers to concentrate less on
obtaining gain and instead concentrate more on lowering the TOA.
without the need of excessive real estate requirements.

Are you looking for a small antenna that will pick up the DX before
the other DX hounds start piling up?


--
Buck
N4PGW

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 05:29:13 GMT, "
wrote:

Just think of what I could be describing, a 20 metre antenna with a
ten to eleven degree TOA, turning radius of a conventional dipole and a
feed point
of something less than 75 foot high. Now thats good for small real estate
and a light duty rotor
tho the U.K. authority may baulk at the height. I have built very long boom
yagi.s. for 20 M
some with a couple of reflectors and some with as many as 13 elements but
this direction is limited
by minimal advances compared to complexity, thus my statement as to what the
hobby needs
for it to grow


I see what you are asking for. I would definitely want one myself,
but the problem I see with your theory is that the antenna can't
change the earth's effect on electromagnetic waves.

I have never had a beam up 75 feet. I had a TA-33 JR up 35 feet,
about half of the height you recommend. I can't say I had the perfect
TAO, but compared to the dipole and a vertical I was using before I
got it, the beam significantly improved my operating. I was county
hunting at the time (operating with mobiles in each US county) and the
short beam made the difference between not hearing a car and
exchanging 5-9 signal reports. While it wasn't perfect or optimum, it
was an improvement. I guess that is the best we can hope for. A
better antenna for the same space.

I like building mostly wire antennas and I have a few designs in mind
and in the works. There are many to choose from to try. Maybe one of
them will be an improvement.

When it comes to making a contact, I have resigned myself to this one
fact: If there is no propagation between two points, there is no
communications. If there is enough propagation, even the poorest of
stations can communicate.

I wish you the best on your DXing and antennas. I've enjoyed the
topic.

73 for now.

Buck
N4PGW

--
Buck
N4PGW

A 150 foot boom ( say 20
elements for example) beam might be perfect for picking up t he lower
angle, which is what I thought you were looking for. The t hree
element beam will bring in higher angle signals as the lobe will
have
a higher angle. A dipole will likely have even a higher, po ssibly a
NVIS angle. ...................................


Dunno...I've never compared super long yagi's vs short ones, but I
don't
think boom length has a drastic effect on the takeoff angle...The
height above
ground is what really determines that...Same for a dipole...A dipole
has a very
low takeoff angle *if* it's high enough..The various yagi's takeoff
angles *should*
be about the same as a dipole at that same height...Or seems to me,
without
looking into it farther. MK

On 29 Jan 2005 21:57:40 -0800, wrote:

A 150 foot boom ( say 20
elements for example) beam might be perfect for picking up t he lower
angle, which is what I thought you were looking for. The t hree
element beam will bring in higher angle signals as the lobe will
have
a higher angle. A dipole will likely have even a higher, po ssibly a
NVIS angle. ...................................


Dunno...I've never compared super long yagi's vs short ones, but I
don't
think boom length has a drastic effect on the takeoff angle...The
height above
ground is what really determines that...Same for a dipole...A dipole
has a very
low takeoff angle *if* it's high enough..The various yagi's takeoff
angles *should*
be about the same as a dipole at that same height...Or seems to me,
without
looking into it farther. MK


I believe that the TAO is narrower, but, like you said, it is really
affected by height and terrain. The range of the TAO of a short beam
might be -25 to +25 and a long beam might be -10 to +10 degrees
relative to horizontal (assuming maximum height of the antenna).

We are in agreement here. The author wants a small footprint antenna
to have a very low TAO, but I think that elevation has more to say
than does the antenna design. A three element beam at 20 feet might
have a TAO of 14 degrees, but the only thing you can do is point the
antenna in the direction you want. I can see pointing the antenna
upwards to get a more vertical TAO, but pointing it down won't give
you a lower one. Like you say, it takes elevation for that and then
it depends on the frequency. If that elevation is 125 feet for 20
meters how can an antenna change it to a lower elevation?

Thanks for the input. I think I have been confused as to what the OP
wanted for an answer and no doubt my answers are confusing too.
Strangely enough, I am thinking that except for the desire of the OP
for a solution, everyone in here is in agreement with the technology.

73

--
Buck
N4PGW

wrote in message
oups.com...
A 150 foot boom ( say 20
elements for example) beam might be perfect for picking up t he lower
angle, which is what I thought you were looking for. The t hree
element beam will bring in higher angle signals as the lobe will
have
a higher angle. A dipole will likely have even a higher, po ssibly a
NVIS angle. ...................................


Dunno...I've never compared super long yagi's vs short ones, but I
don't
think boom length has a drastic effect on the takeoff angle...

Mark I never used the word "drastic" however the long boom antenna
will lower the TOA by around a degree. The reader has to determine
the value of this for himself. If one reviews the incomming signals in the
ARRL literature one can see the percentage of signals that come in from
Europe
at 9 thru 13 degrees.These angles by the way are not to be confused with TOA
and explains exactly why a silly db can mean a lot.
It also shows that the long boom aproach has its limits with respect to
lower
TOA and height certainly changes the TOA more in terms of less complexity.
What I am looking for is the latter method but with less emphasis on feed
point height
which will require a deflection method to achieve lower angles. I am sure
that multiple reflectors
and a single director can be manipulated to do this
Regards
Art



The
height above
ground is what really determines that...Same for a dipole...A dipole
has a very
low takeoff angle *if* it's high enough..The various yagi's takeoff
angles *should*
be about the same as a dipole at that same height...Or seems to me,
without
looking into it farther. MK