balun recommendations
 

Using a T200A-2 for a 1:1 balun, what is the optimum number of turns and
best wire size? 200 watts max power.

I think, others will correct me if I am wrong--the "optimal" number of turns
would would present an impedance of 4x (four times) the impedence
(resistance) of the load/feed, at the lowest freq of operation... sometimes
this cannot be met, and other values must be used... you should be able to
compute this with the "Al" value of the toroid--with data from the
manufacturer...
Remember, I am a "newbie", greater authorites will provide finer details...

Warmest regards,
John

"Fred W4JLE" wrote in message
...
|
| Using a T200A-2 for a 1:1 balun, what is the optimum number of turns and
| best wire size? 200 watts max power.
|
|
|
|
|
|

Using a T200A-2 for a 1:1 balun, what is the optimum number of turns
and
best wire size? 200 watts max power.


What sort of circuit is it in?
Between what things is it to be used?
What frequency range?
We are not mind readers!

Without further information try 12 turns of Radio Shack, 18 or
16-gauge, twin, stranded, speaker wire. It might work.

Errr, impedance of the winding should be "inductive reactance"--excuse me,
these "unreal" things are confusing to me... grin

here is an piece I got somewhere I have been using with tollerable
results...
CALCULATING THE TURNS COUNT



Lets calculate the turns count for impedance matching a beverage antenna
with an impedance of 450 ohms to 50 ohm coax. Because this is a step-down
transformer, the primary (attached to the antenna) will be the larger
winding and we'll deal with that first.



The first formula to use will give us the desired inductance of the primary
winding:



desired L of winding = XL/2p¦



where L= Inductance in millihenries XL=Reactance in ohms ¦=Lowest
frequency of operation in kHz



XL may be found by multiplying the impedance of the antenna to be matched by
a factor of 4. This XL would be

4 x 450 ohms or 1800 ohms. To make things easy, lets use 500 kHz. as our
lowest frequency of operation.



So, L of the primary winding = 1800/2 x3.1416 x 500 or .573 mH

Now that we know the inductance (L) needed for the primary winding, we can
apply the following formula to determine the number of turns needed for the
primary winding.




N = 1000 ÖL/AL



In narrative, this formula should be read: Number of turns required (N) is
equal to 1000 times the

square root (Ö) of the Inductance (L) divided by the constant AL.



The constant AL is determined from the Amidon technical literature and takes
into account the RF qualities and the size of a Type 43 toroid that is 1.14
inches in diameter. The AL for the FT-114-43 is 603.



So, working the formula above, N = 1000 Ö.573/603 = 1000 x .030825 = 30.8
turns, use 31


DISCLAIMER:
If your radio blows up from the use of my advice I can ONLY be held to feel
sorry...

Warmest regards,
John
"John Smith" wrote in message
...
|I think, others will correct me if I am wrong--the "optimal" number of
turns
| would would present an impedance of 4x (four times) the impedence
| (resistance) of the load/feed, at the lowest freq of operation...
sometimes
| this cannot be met, and other values must be used... you should be able to
| compute this with the "Al" value of the toroid--with data from the
| manufacturer...
| Remember, I am a "newbie", greater authorites will provide finer
details...
|
| Warmest regards,
| John
|
| "Fred W4JLE" wrote in message
| ...
||
|| Using a T200A-2 for a 1:1 balun, what is the optimum number of turns and
|| best wire size? 200 watts max power.
||
||
||
||
||
||
|
|

"Optimum" depends on the frequency or frequencies of operation and on
the antenna system. What you need to do is go to the Micrometals web
site (Micrometals is probably the manufacturer of the core) and find the
inductance per turn squared of the core. Then you can calculate the
number of turns needed to get the required reactance at the operating
frequency. For nominally matched antennas, an impedance of 500 - 1000
ohms is generally adequate.

You might find you'll have trouble getting enough impedance at the lower
HF bands. Powdered iron is usually a poor choice for a balun core
because of its low impedance per turn squared. You might pass the self
resonant frequency by the time you get as much reactance as you want.
Ferrites such as type 43 are usually a much better choice -- you get
much more impedance, it stays relatively constant over a very wide
frequency range, and you'll be free of resonance effects.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Fred W4JLE wrote:

Using a T200A-2 for a 1:1 balun, what is the optimum number of turns and
best wire size? 200 watts max power.

one more thing, in most cases, "wire size" should always be the largest you
can get away with (have handy, etc)--not only is it more efficient (lower
ohmic loss of power) it usually holds form better... I would not be all
that concerned about capacitance between turns--unless for very high freq
use...

Regards,
John

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
| Errr, impedance of the winding should be "inductive reactance"--excuse me,
| these "unreal" things are confusing to me... grin
|
| here is an piece I got somewhere I have been using with tollerable
| results...
| CALCULATING THE TURNS COUNT
|
|
|
| Lets calculate the turns count for impedance matching a beverage antenna
| with an impedance of 450 ohms to 50 ohm coax. Because this is a step-down
| transformer, the primary (attached to the antenna) will be the larger
| winding and we'll deal with that first.
|
|
|
| The first formula to use will give us the desired inductance of the
primary
| winding:
|
|
|
| desired L of winding = XL/2p¦
|
|
|
| where L= Inductance in millihenries XL=Reactance in ohms ¦=Lowest
| frequency of operation in kHz
|
|
|
| XL may be found by multiplying the impedance of the antenna to be matched
by
| a factor of 4. This XL would be
|
| 4 x 450 ohms or 1800 ohms. To make things easy, lets use 500 kHz. as our
| lowest frequency of operation.
|
|
|
| So, L of the primary winding = 1800/2 x3.1416 x 500 or .573 mH
|
| Now that we know the inductance (L) needed for the primary winding, we can
| apply the following formula to determine the number of turns needed for
the
| primary winding.
|
|
|
|
| N = 1000 ÖL/AL
|
|
|
| In narrative, this formula should be read: Number of turns required (N) is
| equal to 1000 times the
|
| square root (Ö) of the Inductance (L) divided by the constant AL.
|
|
|
| The constant AL is determined from the Amidon technical literature and
takes
| into account the RF qualities and the size of a Type 43 toroid that is
1.14
| inches in diameter. The AL for the FT-114-43 is 603.
|
|
|
| So, working the formula above, N = 1000 Ö.573/603 = 1000 x .030825 = 30.8
| turns, use 31
|
|
| DISCLAIMER:
| If your radio blows up from the use of my advice I can ONLY be held to
feel
| sorry...
|
| Warmest regards,
| John
| "John Smith" wrote in message
| ...
||I think, others will correct me if I am wrong--the "optimal" number of
| turns
|| would would present an impedance of 4x (four times) the impedence
|| (resistance) of the load/feed, at the lowest freq of operation...
| sometimes
|| this cannot be met, and other values must be used... you should be able
to
|| compute this with the "Al" value of the toroid--with data from the
|| manufacturer...
|| Remember, I am a "newbie", greater authorites will provide finer
| details...
||
|| Warmest regards,
|| John
||
|| "Fred W4JLE" wrote in message
|| ...
|||
||| Using a T200A-2 for a 1:1 balun, what is the optimum number of turns and
||| best wire size? 200 watts max power.
|||
|||
|||
|||
|||
|||
||
||
|
|

one more thing, in most cases, "wire size" should always be the
largest you
can get away with (have handy, etc)--not only is it more efficient
(lower
ohmic loss of power) it usually holds form better... I would not be
all
that concerned about capacitance between turns--unless for very high
freq
use...

Regards,
John
======================================

John, have you ever tried winding the largest possible wire around a
ferrite toroid ring?
----
Reg.

Reg:

Yes, I have, started winding 'em with too BIG of wire to, had to drop a
couple sizes... which is why I said:
"...should always be the largest you can get away with...", as to "wire
size."
A 2" core is pretty big though, that is what he has got-if I know those
numbers correctly, and unless he is going to the basement (160M) or a KW
(probably could get by with a KW on a 200A too, but I'd go 2.5" core) he has
some room...
It is a 200A, they have a bit more inductance per turn too (bit fewer turns
for same mh/uh), than just a 200, if I remember datasheets correctly...

Warmest regards,
John

"Reg Edwards" wrote in message
...
|
| one more thing, in most cases, "wire size" should always be the
| largest you
| can get away with (have handy, etc)--not only is it more efficient
| (lower
| ohmic loss of power) it usually holds form better... I would not be
| all
| that concerned about capacitance between turns--unless for very high
| freq
| use...
|
| Regards,
| John
| ======================================
|
| John, have you ever tried winding the largest possible wire around a
| ferrite toroid ring?
| ----
| Reg.
|
|

Use is 80 to 10 meters.


"Roy Lewallen" wrote in message
...
"Optimum" depends on the frequency or frequencies of operation and on
the antenna system. What you need to do is go to the Micrometals web
site (Micrometals is probably the manufacturer of the core) and find the
inductance per turn squared of the core. Then you can calculate the
number of turns needed to get the required reactance at the operating
frequency. For nominally matched antennas, an impedance of 500 - 1000
ohms is generally adequate.

You might find you'll have trouble getting enough impedance at the lower
HF bands. Powdered iron is usually a poor choice for a balun core
because of its low impedance per turn squared. You might pass the self
resonant frequency by the time you get as much reactance as you want.
Ferrites such as type 43 are usually a much better choice -- you get
much more impedance, it stays relatively constant over a very wide
frequency range, and you'll be free of resonance effects.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Fred W4JLE wrote:

Using a T200A-2 for a 1:1 balun, what is the optimum number of turns and
best wire size? 200 watts max power.

Fred W4JLE wrote:
Using a T200A-2 for a 1:1 balun, what is the optimum number of turns and
best wire size? 200 watts max power.

#2 material is a good choice for inductors, not so good a choice
for a balun. I bought a commercial balun made from #2 material.
It did not perform well over all of HF. #2 is powdered iron.
Suggest a ferrite like FT-240-61 or a W2DU style choke.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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Fred W4JLE wrote:

Use is 80 to 10 meters.

In that case I'd seriously recommend using ferrite rather than the
powdered iron core. Type 43 or one of the 70 series would be best.
Around ten turns on a fair sized core would be in the ballpark, but you
could get more detailed information from the web site of the ferrite
manufacturer.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

It is to be used in a transmission line. I need to cover 10-80 meters. The
core has m=10 and uH per hundred turns of 218.

"Reg Edwards" wrote in message
...


Using a T200A-2 for a 1:1 balun, what is the optimum number of turns
and
best wire size? 200 watts max power.


What sort of circuit is it in?
Between what things is it to be used?
What frequency range?
We are not mind readers!

Without further information try 12 turns of Radio Shack, 18 or
16-gauge, twin, stranded, speaker wire. It might work.

But all I have is a couple of t200a cores.

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
Fred W4JLE wrote:
Using a T200A-2 for a 1:1 balun, what is the optimum number of turns and
best wire size? 200 watts max power.

#2 material is a good choice for inductors, not so good a choice
for a balun. I bought a commercial balun made from #2 material.
It did not perform well over all of HF. #2 is powdered iron.
Suggest a ferrite like FT-240-61 or a W2DU style choke.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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Fred W4JLE wrote:
But all I have is a couple of t200a cores.

With two of them, you might be able to wind one for 80m-30m
and the other for 20m-10m. Bit if I were you, I'd order the
Amidon AB-240 balun kit for $9.

http://www.amidoncorp.com/aai_cost_experimenter.htm
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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I don't have $9.00, still need to use what I have.

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
Fred W4JLE wrote:
But all I have is a couple of t200a cores.

With two of them, you might be able to wind one for 80m-30m
and the other for 20m-10m. Bit if I were you, I'd order the
Amidon AB-240 balun kit for $9.

http://www.amidoncorp.com/aai_cost_experimenter.htm
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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Approximately 12 turns of 18 gauge speaker wire on a 2" diameter
ferrite ring will do the job.

Ferrite material with Mu = 200 to 500, ordinary LF to HF grade will be
OK.

If Mu = 10 then the core material is iron dust. Permeability is much
too low. Many turns would be needed to obtain sufficient inductance
at 80m. Too many turns prevent correct operation at 20 and 10m. And
the wire would be too thin for operation at 200 watts.
----
Reg, G4FGQ.

========================================

"Fred W4JLE" wrote in message
...

It is to be used in a transmission line. I need to cover 10-80
meters. The
core has m=10 and uH per hundred turns of 218.

"Reg Edwards" wrote in message
...


Using a T200A-2 for a 1:1 balun, what is the optimum number of
turns
and
best wire size? 200 watts max power.


What sort of circuit is it in?
Between what things is it to be used?
What frequency range?
We are not mind readers!

Without further information try 12 turns of Radio Shack, 18 or
16-gauge, twin, stranded, speaker wire. It might work.

I found this page of interest, mainly because he speaks (mentions) of the
EXACT core you wish to use...
http://www.rason.org/Projects/balun/balun.htm

Warmest regards,
John

"Fred W4JLE" wrote in message
...
|
| Using a T200A-2 for a 1:1 balun, what is the optimum number of turns and
| best wire size? 200 watts max power.
|
|
|
|
|
|

Yes, but this page shows a 4:1 balun, I need a 1:1

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
I found this page of interest, mainly because he speaks (mentions) of the
EXACT core you wish to use...
http://www.rason.org/Projects/balun/balun.htm

Warmest regards,
John

"Fred W4JLE" wrote in message
...
|
| Using a T200A-2 for a 1:1 balun, what is the optimum number of turns and
| best wire size? 200 watts max power.
|
|
|
|
|
|

Well, going by his figures, two windings of 13 turns each, hooked as a
1:1....
I forgot if you were going Balun or UnUn, if Balun, it would be a trifilimar
hooked as a voltage balun, correct?
And, that is assuming if what I present is correct--by what I have "thought"
I have leaned (picked-up)...

Regards,
John

"Fred W4JLE" wrote in message
...
| Yes, but this page shows a 4:1 balun, I need a 1:1
|
| "John Smith" wrote in message
| ...
| I found this page of interest, mainly because he speaks (mentions) of
the
| EXACT core you wish to use...
| http://www.rason.org/Projects/balun/balun.htm
|
| Warmest regards,
| John
|
| "Fred W4JLE" wrote in message
| ...
| |
| | Using a T200A-2 for a 1:1 balun, what is the optimum number of turns
and
| | best wire size? 200 watts max power.
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
|
|
|
|

Errr, and that is assuming (yes, I know, I keep making that mistake) that
the two turn winding (bifilar winding) is used in a “phase reversal”
configuration… for unbalanced-to-unbalanced 1:1 effect…. and, I think this
qualifies as a "current balun."



Why the trifilar winding becomes a "voltage balun" is a concept still
escaping me...

I am working on that, for anyone who would like to explain?



Warmest regards,

John



"John Smith" wrote in message
...
| Well, going by his figures, two windings of 13 turns each, hooked as a
| 1:1....
| I forgot if you were going Balun or UnUn, if Balun, it would be a
trifilimar
| hooked as a voltage balun, correct?
| And, that is assuming if what I present is correct--by what I have
"thought"
| I have leaned (picked-up)...
|
| Regards,
| John
|
| "Fred W4JLE" wrote in message
| ...
|| Yes, but this page shows a 4:1 balun, I need a 1:1
||
|| "John Smith" wrote in message
|| ...
|| I found this page of interest, mainly because he speaks (mentions) of
| the
|| EXACT core you wish to use...
|| http://www.rason.org/Projects/balun/balun.htm
||
|| Warmest regards,
|| John
||
|| "Fred W4JLE" wrote in message
|| ...
|| |
|| | Using a T200A-2 for a 1:1 balun, what is the optimum number of turns
| and
|| | best wire size? 200 watts max power.
|| |
|| |
|| |
|| |
|| |
|| |
||
||
||
||
|
|

Fred W4JLE wrote:
Yes, but this page shows a 4:1 balun, I need a 1:1

Put as many turns of RG-316 as the toroid will hold
and see if that works for 80m.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


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