Ham op wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:

SNIPPED


Some say: "From the Mediterranean; to the Black Sea."



Yep, there is the possibility of an ancient flood that may have
made a mess out of the Mediterranean. I believe this may have been
possible.

The one I wonder about is the Fundie account where the water had
to cover the entire earth. This means that it had to cover the top of
Mt Everest. That is one honkin' load of water!

- Mike -


I agree with your statement, but disagree with your hypothesis.

Mike, you have to remember history. When Genesis and Gilgamesh were
written the world was flat, the Americas did not exist, the East
[Orient] did not exist, Mt. Everest and Russia did not exist, most
likely western Europe did not exist [in the experience of the authors].
The people of the UR valley [possibly today's IRAQ] did not know that
Israel, Lebanon, Greece, etc existed. Their world was very, very
localized. Their written language had not yet developed.

So, a major flood, similar to the Mississippi basin flood of a few years
ago, a 500 year flood [0.2% probable], would be a flood of their whole
world !!!

It is generally conceded that a flood occurred in the Near East in the
period of pre-history. This flood was carried in ORAL traditions in
several cultures. It appears in the subsequent writings of several
cultures.

So, the science community should focus on a fairly significant flood,
0.2% probable, in the near east possibly 4000 to 6000 years BCE.

Actually we do agree pretty well. My point was that the fundies who
insist on literal word for work unquestioning acceptance of King James
fall into silly traps on things like the flood. Your local major flood
*is* probably what gave rise to the Noah's ark story.

More's the pity. It is a good story, and had stood for a long time as
just that. Now we have some unusual types telling us it had to happen
verbatim...


Now, I ask, what has this to do with ham radio antennas?? Seems
like we
drifted off subject!

Indeed! 8^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote:
Ham op wrote:
snip
Where did the water come from, and where did it go?

- Mike -

Some say: "From the Mediterranean; to the Black Sea."

Yep, there is the possibility of an ancient flood
that may have made a mess out of the Mediterranean.
I believe this may have been possible.

Mike:

The last flood to have made a mess of the Med. Sea
happened more than 5 million years ago.
Just prior to water rushing through what is now the
Strait of Gibraltar, the Med. was a set of unconnected
salt lakes, surrounded by salt pans.

Ham:

Yes, some do say that water suddenly poured into the
Black Sea from the Med., but their numbers are shrinking.

Allow me to burden you with my standard rant on this
topic. Please, and thank you.

engage rant mode

Sadly, you, and maybe millions of other people,
have been misled on this subject.


Alas, there was no "Noachian" Black Sea Flood, and
the science in William Ryan's and Walter Pitman's book
"Noah's Flood: the event that changed history" has in
several cases been superceded by better information that
indicates that there was no such event, and was in most
cases preceded by evidence that indicated that there
was no such event.
Ryan and Pitman set out to overturn the orthodox view
of the history of the Black Sea, but they have apparently
abandoned their hypothesis, if more recent articles
co-authored by Ryan are any indication.
The orthodox view has prevailed, subject to some recent
modifications.


There is evidence that there was an _outflow_ southward
from the Black Sea through the Bosphorus into the
Mediterranean from more than 10000 years ago
(well before R & P's initial 5600 BCE flood date),
continuously until the present day, though there may have
been a relatively short interruption.
And evidence from the south shore of the Black sea shows
that the level of the Black Sea was only 18 m below the
present level at the time of the supposed flood.
The more recent claim by Ryan puts the flood date at
8400 BP, or about 9000 years ago, but then the
"floodwaters" through the Bosphorus channel would have been
only about 5 metres deep. 9000 years ago is when everybody
else always thought that Mediterranean sal****er first
entered the Black Sea. At about that time, the last phase
of Glacial Lake Agassiz, in central Canada, finally found
an outlet to the sea through or under the remnants of the
Laurentide Ice Sheet, and so out into the North Atlantic,
raising sea level an appreciable amount, and _perhaps_
triggering a sudden inflow of sal****er into the Black Sea
basin.
But probably not sudden or great enough to inspire a
Noachian Flood myth.
Better candidates are widespread inundation of low-lying
parts of the Persian Gulf associated with the final draining
of Glacial Lake Agassiz, and similar flooding of the Tigris-
Euphrates delta, and (most likely) simultaneous flooding of
the Tigris and Euphrates, which would have looked like a
flooding of the entire world from the viewpoint of a person
near present-day Baghdad. These candidates could each or all
have inspired the flood myth in the epic of Gilgamesh, which
predates the first known appearance of the Noachian Flood
myth.

Check this out, for a layman-friendly synopsis of the
refutation:

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/bs=ADeaflod.htm

On the draining of Glacial Lake Agassiz:

http://cgrg.geog.uvic.ca/abstr=ADact...nceDuring.html

Full article:

http://www.highbeam.com/librar=ADy/d...4735&=ADrefid=
=3Dip_...


And here's a fairly recent news item on refutation of
Ryan's and Pitman's hypothesis:

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/o=ADbse...ws/4949335.htm

BEGIN QUOTE
January 14, 2003

Scientists are seriously challenging a recent,
fascinating proposal that Noah's epic story --
setting sail with an ark jam-full of animal couples --
was based on an actual catastrophic flood that suddenly
filled the Black Sea 7,500 years ago, forcing people to
flee.

In a detailed new look at the rocks, sediments, currents
and seashells in and around the Black Sea, an international
research team pooh-poohs the Noah flood idea, arguing that
all the geologic, hydrologic and biologic signs are wrong.

Little that the earth can tell us seems to fit the Noah
story, they say. The new research takes direct aim at the
work of two Columbia University geologists -- William Ryan
and Walter Pitman -- whose proposal in 1997 ignited much
new interest, and much new research, into Middle East
history and geology.

END QUOTE

Also, Ballard did not find Noah's House, and he has
recently admitted that he didn't find any evidence of
human occupation of the Black Sea continental shelf,
let alone any support for the BSFlood hypothesis.
Here is another recent news article telling you about
that (please be warned that several statements in the
article are erroneous, e.g.
"Scholars agree the Black Sea flooded when
rising world sea levels caused the Mediterranean to
burst over land and fill the then-freshwater lake."):

"Black Sea Trip Yields No Flood Conclusions"

http://www.puresupply.com/newa=ADp/D8458SGG3.html

There was no actual ruined building found by
Ballard, but rather just a partly rectangular outline
of raised bed on the continental shelf, that might
even be the outline of the wheelhouse of a modern
freighter.
To the northwest the outline continues, and narrows
to a point.
To the southeast, the outline continues for a shorter
distance, and ends in a rounded curve.
Just what you'd expect when a sunken ship's hull is
covered with sediment.
The wood didn't necessarily contaminate the site,
it might have been part of the ship, and so accurately
dates the site.
The roughly-worked stones could have been the ship's
ballast.

If you wish, I can supply links to the writeups on
Ballard's finds in professional journals.

And here are a couple of scientific papers:

"Is the abrupt drowning of the Black Sea shelf at
7150 yr BP a myth?"

http://lava.tamu.edu/courses/g=ADeol...l=ADoodCritiq=
..=2E.


"Persistent Holocene Outflow from the Black Sea to
the Eastern Mediterranean Contradicts Noah's Flood
Hypothesis"

http://www.geosociety.org/pubs=AD/gsatoday/toc0205.htm

And there's lots more, but you'd need access to
scientific journals to read it, but you could ask me
for more details if you want them.
Some of the articles are available on the Web.

Sorry to splash water in the frying pan.

Daryl Krupa=20

disengage rant mode

wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:

Ham op wrote:

snip

Where did the water come from, and where did it go?

- Mike -


Some say: "From the Mediterranean; to the Black Sea."

Yep, there is the possibility of an ancient flood
that may have made a mess out of the Mediterranean.
I believe this may have been possible.


Mike:

The last flood to have made a mess of the Med. Sea
happened more than 5 million years ago.
Just prior to water rushing through what is now the
Strait of Gibraltar, the Med. was a set of unconnected
salt lakes, surrounded by salt pans.

Ham:

Yes, some do say that water suddenly poured into the
Black Sea from the Med., but their numbers are shrinking.

Allow me to burden you with my standard rant on this
topic. Please, and thank you.

engage rant mode

Sadly, you, and maybe millions of other people,
have been misled on this subject.


Thanks for the references, but you have som incorrect attributions in
the post.

For the argument I simply stated that such a flood was a possibility.
I'm aware that opinion is starting to run against that theory.

But you have to admit that it is still more plausable than th e
idea of of a 40 day rainfall that raises sea level at least 29,035+ feet.

I'm not subtracting the amount that tectonic forces have raised Everest
due to not knowing exactly *when* the great flood occured, if the
current rate of upthrust was maintained in that time, and also if
erosion rates have remained the same or not. But if the flood was 3000
years ago (keeping in mind that many fundies allow no greater age than
4004 bce) we could have the mountain some 98.5 feet less in altitude at
the peak at 0.394 inch per year upthrust.


- Mike KB3EIA -

Michael Coslo wrote:
But you have to admit that it is still more plausable than th e
idea of of a 40 day rainfall that raises sea level at least 29,035+ feet.

For goodness sake, Mike, didn't you ever see "Waterworld"?
--
73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

I am still examining the leavings of the tea leaves in my last cup of
tea--any of your grandmothers have any ideas? -- if so, will provide a
rough sketch and have them analyse 'em for me.... grin

Warmest regards,
John

"Michael Coslo" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:

Ham op wrote:

snip

Where did the water come from, and where did it go?

- Mike -


Some say: "From the Mediterranean; to the Black Sea."

Yep, there is the possibility of an ancient flood
that may have made a mess out of the Mediterranean.
I believe this may have been possible.


Mike:

The last flood to have made a mess of the Med. Sea
happened more than 5 million years ago.
Just prior to water rushing through what is now the
Strait of Gibraltar, the Med. was a set of unconnected
salt lakes, surrounded by salt pans.

Ham:

Yes, some do say that water suddenly poured into the
Black Sea from the Med., but their numbers are shrinking.

Allow me to burden you with my standard rant on this
topic. Please, and thank you.

engage rant mode

Sadly, you, and maybe millions of other people,
have been misled on this subject.


Thanks for the references, but you have som incorrect attributions in the
post.

For the argument I simply stated that such a flood was a possibility. I'm
aware that opinion is starting to run against that theory.

But you have to admit that it is still more plausable than th e
idea of of a 40 day rainfall that raises sea level at least 29,035+ feet.

I'm not subtracting the amount that tectonic forces have raised Everest
due to not knowing exactly *when* the great flood occured, if the current
rate of upthrust was maintained in that time, and also if erosion rates
have remained the same or not. But if the flood was 3000 years ago
(keeping in mind that many fundies allow no greater age than 4004 bce) we
could have the mountain some 98.5 feet less in altitude at the peak at
0.394 inch per year upthrust.


- Mike KB3EIA -