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Al:
This room is less about antennas than it is about egos, hero worship, and the "good ole boys club." I have seen egos here large enough to chase all the air from the room--leaves one breathless... a couple of these guys are even "LEGENDS IN THEIR OWN MINDS!", now that's gotta count for something! Perhaps we will eventually get some 25 to 45 year olds in here and restore some progressive thinking, discussion, debate and argument which civilized men can conduct in productive ways... those who have had their day in the sun (or 15 minutes of fame) will eventually move on. Right now, there is little point in fighting the "status quo" here--they turn like a pack of wild dogs in attack if even someone poses an original thought, or explores an unconventional path... one poor long tall drink of water from Texas is taking his lickings for this now. It does have the effect of chasing off fresh new minds which would be of interest to us who would enjoy group participation--rather than a lecture by a dinosaur (and I can say that even being close to "dinosaur age" myself.) Hang in there OM... if you have measured those swr's and know your product, people will give it a go... .... the construction seems well done and should provide service for many years... Should be more than satisfactory for someone just wanting to get on the band(s) and not become an antenna guru. Heck, with an L-Match on it a guy might be surprised how wide that bandwidth can become... Warmest regards, John "Al" wrote in message oups.com... Hey Al, Don't let the nay-sayers in this NG bother you, and don't waste your time arguing with them. Some of them can't stand the thought that any antenna which differs from their personal pet(s) might be good. Others can't grasp the idea that when model predictions and actual results differ, it's the results that count. Still others can't seem to understand that effects too small to measure usually do not matter in the real world. Your antenna is beautifully made, very reasonably priced, and you are (apparently) making a successful small business with it. Your customers are delighted, and refer their friends. You are starting to attract imitators. How many of these accomplishments can the nay-sayers claim? Keep up the good work... the XYL and I love our three OSJs! And they are now pretty much standard in our ARES/RACES organization. NO complaints heard to date. Thanks, Ed, W6LOL You are absolutely right. There is an old saying "You can't please all the people all the time". That's why I put the Money Back Guarantee on everything I sell. The return rate is less than 1 in 1,000 units sold. That's good enough for me. That's it, I am done. Thanks for all the fun. 73 Al Lowe N0IMW |
Again, I just think it is wrong to tell someone the antenna won't work
with out a choke. Well, obviously I've never said that. But I have done many tests with 1/2 waves with and without decoupling sections. They were always improved with the extra section. I just mainly wanted to clarify that no matter how the antenna is fed, or no matter the SWR, which is totally irrelevant, you still have to contend with the spillover currents. The only cure for that is a decoupling section, choke, or whatever. As far as I know, the isopole was electrically the best dual 5/8 ever built as far as decoupling the line. I've never heard of any competing designs beating it. The ringo ranger II is slightly inferior. But the isopole is also pretty ugly...Looks like a missile... I'm not saying it doesn't work ok now. I'm sure it does. I'm just saying it would likely work a bit better with it, and be more stable as far as common mode currents per users at different sites. I agree. I don't think you should change it...There are other designs if you want higher performance..Anyone wanting to further decouple the line can add their own chokes, etc.. The ringo ranger II was cushcrafts answer to the isopole. Before that, they sold the ringo ranger. It was basically fed the same way as the J pole, except using the gamma loop. Like the version you use, the gamma loop ain't half bad at decoupling the line in itself. It was fairly usable as is, and many used it for a few years...Then the isopole came out, with basically the same dual 5/8 design, but with decoupling. It just tore the ringo ranger a new one... Smoked it....Cushcraft knew they had a major problem. So they designed a decoupling section to add below the regular ringo ranger. Made a *huge* difference in performance for most users. I know myself, I tested it with and without the decoupling section, just out of curiosity. On local repeaters, the average difference was 3-4 S units, using an icom 22u. And thats totally reciprical. On VHF/UHF, I've found that decoupling is generally more important to low angle gain, that any gains from element lengths, or collinears, etc... A well decoupled 1/4 wave ground plane can easily match or beat a poorly decoupled much taller ringo ranger with no section... Myself....I prefer a small yagi....:/ I have a three el for FM, vertical... Smokes any vertical....MK |
Don't let the nay-sayers in this NG bother you, and don't waste
your time arguing with them. At this point, I don't consider my thoughts, arguing.... Just stating the fairly obvious...Don't ignore spillover currents if you want superior performance from an elevated vertical on VHF/UHF. Some of them can't stand the thought that any antenna which differs from their personal pet(s) might be good. I could care less...He didn't invent the J pole... Others can't grasp the idea that when model predictions and actual results differ, it's the results that count. The actual results count...I could care less about the models. I've tested all this in the real world, with real antennas. Still others can't seem to understand that effects too small to measure usually do not matter in the real world. Total BS in most cases....I seen the lack of decoupling totally ruin otherwise decent antennas... I've personally tested and seen easy 3-4 s unit differences in the same exact antenna , with and without the decoupling section connected. Decoupling is critical to high performance on VHF/UHF. All the best designs include it. Your antenna is beautifully made, very reasonably priced, and you are (apparently) making a successful small business with it. Your customers are delighted, and refer their friends. Yes, I agree. I know many people that use his arrow yagi's for SAT work...Just because his J pole doesn't have a decoupling device doesn't mean he doesn't build good antennas...Not that many people decouple J poles...I've never understood why...But there it is... You are starting to attract imitators. The J pole has been imitated numerous times.... Or are you talking about arrows? How many of these accomplishments can the nay-sayers claim? Ugh....I'm not in the antenna biz...But If I were....but If I were.... I would decouple *all* my VHF/UHF verticals. Myself, I doubt I would even sell a J pole... I'm not particularly fond of the design... I would sell a super duper isopole II..... Decoupling out the ying yang... And yes, I'm sure it would cost more than $39.00... MK |
The biggest problem I have run into with your J-pole is that it sets up a
lot of wind vibration noise at 70 MPH when mounted on the roof of my Subaru. :) "Al" wrote in message oups.com... Sniped I don't believe you can totally eliminate all current. There will always be a small amount. Agreed, but it is small enough I don't think most people could see a difference in performance if it had a choke or not. All I am saying, to say the antenna won't work with out a choke is just wrong. I doubt I would change the antenna....Would make it cost more... I'd consider a super deluxe version for a higher price, if they wanted full 2 section decoupling...:/ And if I went that far, I'd use a dual 5/8 design to get more gain. You'd be reinventing the isopole...:/ MK I have an "Isopole" here in the shop, it works good, maybe one of the best 5/8 wave antennas I have ever tested. I think it could be built a little better. I have seen a lot of them that were broke. But that is comparing apples to oranges The OSJ is a simple 1/2 wave antenna that has 0 dBd gain. No magic. Again, I just think it is wrong to tell someone the antenna won't work with out a choke. 73 Al Lowe N0IMW |
nm5k:
I agree with you on some you say, and on some of it disagree... Some, like me, care most about getting something up you can use and/or tinker with... and I work with computer models all day, I like to get my hands dirty... Others want it to be perfect "on paper"... This is not a case of one being right over the other--and no matter what their goal--I would like to accept it as a valid goal without question. It helps to try to formulate answers to help the particular person in question towards obtaining their goals--as opposed to impressing them with ones personal knowledge--well, unless that is what they wish and/or that is acceptable to them. There are men with good sound knowledge here, I do not question that--just sometimes they could present it in a manner which is more pleasant and tolerant... either way I will accept it, however I think some of the "faint at heart" are chased away... And in any case, it does not hurt to know the fine details of something--take the balun/choke and feedline currents for example--heck, you can run with the currents... and, if you ever get tired and wonder what it would be like to run without them, doesn't hurt to have gained the knowledge to quickly wind a current balun and chuck it in the line... Warmest regards, John wrote in message oups.com... Don't let the nay-sayers in this NG bother you, and don't waste your time arguing with them. At this point, I don't consider my thoughts, arguing.... Just stating the fairly obvious...Don't ignore spillover currents if you want superior performance from an elevated vertical on VHF/UHF. Some of them can't stand the thought that any antenna which differs from their personal pet(s) might be good. I could care less...He didn't invent the J pole... Others can't grasp the idea that when model predictions and actual results differ, it's the results that count. The actual results count...I could care less about the models. I've tested all this in the real world, with real antennas. Still others can't seem to understand that effects too small to measure usually do not matter in the real world. Total BS in most cases....I seen the lack of decoupling totally ruin otherwise decent antennas... I've personally tested and seen easy 3-4 s unit differences in the same exact antenna , with and without the decoupling section connected. Decoupling is critical to high performance on VHF/UHF. All the best designs include it. Your antenna is beautifully made, very reasonably priced, and you are (apparently) making a successful small business with it. Your customers are delighted, and refer their friends. Yes, I agree. I know many people that use his arrow yagi's for SAT work...Just because his J pole doesn't have a decoupling device doesn't mean he doesn't build good antennas...Not that many people decouple J poles...I've never understood why...But there it is... You are starting to attract imitators. The J pole has been imitated numerous times.... Or are you talking about arrows? How many of these accomplishments can the nay-sayers claim? Ugh....I'm not in the antenna biz...But If I were....but If I were.... I would decouple *all* my VHF/UHF verticals. Myself, I doubt I would even sell a J pole... I'm not particularly fond of the design... I would sell a super duper isopole II..... Decoupling out the ying yang... And yes, I'm sure it would cost more than $39.00... MK |
This room is less about antennas than it is about egos, hero worship,
and the "good ole boys club." Speak for yourself....I rarely deviate from the topic of the NG...On the other hand....That John Smith/Bret dude often goes off on weird tangents....... Hang in there OM... if you have measured those swr's and know your product, people will give it a go... SWR has absolutely nothing to do with common mode currents.. Even someone just wanting to get on the band(s) should be aware of that. It's for their own good. MK |
.... what is never GOOD is having another tell one WHAT IS GOOD for
them... if you do that in normal life, expect to get told off as often as here... John wrote in message oups.com... This room is less about antennas than it is about egos, hero worship, and the "good ole boys club." Speak for yourself....I rarely deviate from the topic of the NG...On the other hand....That John Smith/Bret dude often goes off on weird tangents....... Hang in there OM... if you have measured those swr's and know your product, people will give it a go... SWR has absolutely nothing to do with common mode currents.. Even someone just wanting to get on the band(s) should be aware of that. It's for their own good. MK |
what is never GOOD is having another tell one WHAT IS GOOD for
them... if you do that in normal life, expect to get told off as often as here... What is good is talking to people that don't have their heads up their rearend. All I'm doing is stating fairly simple facts. If you choose to ignore them, fine with me... But don't start with your goofball behavior pattern just because I'm trying to clarify that *no* type of feed on an elevated vertical is capable of fully decoupling the antenna on it's own. I quote from Al's first post.... "One think you may have missed, the original post was about a Arrow Antenna J-Pole. This is an Open Stub type J-Pole, Not a Closed Stub type like the copper pipe ones. The OSJ does not need a choke, it does not have a problem with feedline radiation or a problem with Common Mode Currents. " That statement is *false* if you want the best performance. That type of antenna is most certainly able to suffer from feedline radiation. Sure, it may be better decoupled from the line using his method vs another, but that does not deal with spillover currents. There must be a 2nd decoupling device to deal with those currents. The antenna does include that as sold. If you think I really give a hoot about Arrow antennas, or Al, or whoever, you are sadly mistaken. He would have never heard from me if he hadn't said that his J pole can't suffer from common mode problems. I'm a dumbass compared to many of these people, and even I know thats a silly statement to make, unless you like holes in your toes. Oh...And I can't ever recall ever being "told off" on any post, on any NG...I don't have the behavior patterns, hyperactivity, etc, that you seem to exhibit. So I don't attract the attention that people like you do. The only people that ever get me going are smartasses. I have run across 4-5 real=AE smartasses on my journey through the internet. They tried to tell me off, but I quickly showed them that that was an effort in futility. I'm rated a black belt when it comes to smartasses. You wanna be #6 on the list? Go ahead...Make my day.... At this point, I don't consider you a full fledged smartass... You are like a 9 year old that is hyperactive from gorging on chocolate, that turned out to actually be coated preluden pills... So I cut you a bit of slack...So far.....Don't push your luck... You would have never heard from me, except that your post struck me as overall BS...As usual.... Note... This room is less about antennas than it is about egos, hero worship, and the "good ole boys club." Only people that are defensive, or are trying to cover something up, or trying to claim some silly nonsense would feel this way. All people have ego's to varying degrees. Best to ignore.... I would never worship a man. I don't belong to any clubs, but I reckon if I did, I would prefer a bunch of good ole boys, over a bunch of anal retentive "girly men" who constantly feel victimized by the world in general... MK |
In article ,
Wes Stewart wrote: But he says, "However, since the currents on either side of the feedpoint are not balanced, a choke balun is mandatory to suppress unwanted currents on the feedline." Whups, you're right. I though that this particular section of his text was referring to the standard J-pole, but in re-reading it I see that it's referring to the nonstandard/open-sleeve version. Cebik's model would need to be modified somewhat apply to the Arrow open-sleeve J-pole, as the Arrow is fed at the very base of the one element rather than halfway between the two. That's how I modeled it, although it makes very little difference in the results. Since it's only an inch or so, that makes good sense. Anybody care to model up the Arrow, with all three elements included, with and without a separate wire representing the outside of the coax? Done, before you asked.[g] That's what the Howard/Fine/Howard team used to call "Super Service!" :-) -- Dave Platt AE6EO Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
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Again, I just think it is wrong to tell someone the antenna won't work with out a choke. 73 Al Lowe N0IMW I agree entirely. In fact, I think it's wrong to tell someone that an antenna won't "work", regardless of how good or bad it is. The only exception I'd make is if the person has some very well-defined criteria about what constitutes "working" and what doesn't, but very few people do. Most hams want to talk to someone, and most antennas will allow them to do that, with a minimum of fuss, optimizing, or knowledge -- that is, most antennas "work". Once that basic need is met, durability, construction quality, and customer support rightfully become the most important items in choosing a commercial antenna. Just about any antenna can be made to work better in a technical sense (for example, higher gain in some direction). But a technical improvement that doesn't cause any improvement in operational use isn't an improvement at all. If the repeater you want to talk to is full quieting in both directions, no technical improvement in the antenna will improve your ability to communicate, so there's no point in putting forth the effort. Who cares if your car can go 120 or 140 MPH if you never drive it over 70? [Considering the giant immaculate scratch-free four-wheel drive vehicles overpopulating the suburban roads, I'm afraid that's not a good example.] On the other hand, if you're trying to operate under marginal conditions, even a small technical improvement in the antenna performance translates to an enhanced ability to communicate. That's where it pays to know something about how antennas work, and where it can be worth the time and trouble to make the improvements. I have to say, though, it's sometimes discouraging when suggestions about how an antenna can be improved are interpreted as saying an antenna "doesn't work" without the improvements. It's awfully hard to penetrate through the binary way of thinking most people seem to be stuck with. It's really a shame that some manufacturers of good, serviceable, durable antennas feel they have to create some special and magical quality to convince people to buy their products. But I guess that's the reality of the marketplace. Works for cars, works for medicine, must work for antennas too. Roy Lewallen, W7EL |
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