Ian White, G3SEK wrote:
"In your previous statement you said it "performs multiplication" which
is totally false."

It gives the right answers so it is not false.

Multiplication is the process of finding the product resulting from the
addition of a given number by a certain number of times as there are
units in another number.

It`s the product that counts, not the way you get there. An amplifier
with a certain gain is fine. A lever that trades force for distance is
fine. A digital machine, having no hardwired multiply and divide circuit
and only works with ones and zeros is fine.

The only important thing is you supply representative inputs to a device
and it gives you the correct product of the numbers as its outpot.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

Cecil. W5DXP wrote:
In a transmission line, there is only one "new direction", the opposite
direction."

Tes, and there is no cumulative long-term buildup on the line. We could
sense an accumulation. The energy in the steady state is lost on the
line or dissipated in lhe load or source.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

straightman:
The net result is that there is still no
vectoral addition that blacks out the light bulb simply because you
can exhibit "away from and toward directions."

[.... Ta-da-dum!]

stooge:
A light bulb does not emit coherent light so your
statement is 100% irrelevant to coherent RF sources
and/or coherent laser sources.

straightman:
And if that source WERE entirely coherent?

[Ba-Boom!]

scientist (wearing white lab coat steps from behind curtain):
The observer would still perceive as much light;
and absolutely none of it would destructively/constructively
interfere.

Simply because the source can exhibit "away from and toward
directions" is wholly immaterial. Direction vectors and power
have nothing to do here.

[voice over and closing music]:
Ladies and gentlemen. The experiments performed here
should not be attempted at home. Further, please do not
plonk the stooge on stage as his performance is part of our
audience's instruction and distracts their attention.

We thank your patronage and look forward to more skits. :-)

Cecil Moore wrote:

Jim Kelley wrote:

I think I'll stick with just saying that power, as a scaler quantity
does not have direction and cannot be negative.


So what is E^ x H^?

According to Born and Wolf, it's "an abstraction that introduces a
certain degree of arbitrariness". On the other hand it's integral over
a volume is described as something from which "no unambiguous conclusion
can be drawn". So, is that what you're hangin' your hat on, there Cecil?

Or perhaps you would have preferred my response to be "it's whatever you
sez it is, massa mensa".

ac6xg

Cecil Moore wrote:

Richard Clark wrote:

To obtain a complete cancellation it requires identical powers with
identical but opposing phases. You would agree that without this
condition there is no complete cancellation?


What you have described is exactly what happens at a
Z0-match point.

Except that power and energy, like mass and time, aren't things which
'cancel'. Fields on the other hand can superpose, interfere, and cancel.

73, ac6xg

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:47:12 -0500, (Richard
Harrison) wrote:

Richard Clark wrote:
"Actually that is quite wrong. IR is not heat."

He got me. According to Lincoln`s Industrial Reference, from a 100-watt
MAZDA lamp the amount of energy emanating as light is 10%, and as
infrared is 72%. The rest is lost to gas end loss, etc. The loss would
be only 18% You can`t see infrared. The eye is most sensitive to a
yellow-green color around 5550 Angstrom units. Lamps are made to
emphasize white or "daylight" which is rated at about 2400 to 3100
degrees Kelvin.

Hi Richard,

Well, your ability to research the topic continues well in advance of
other's effort. Some may note the congruence of the specified
emission peak and my statements earlier choosing exactly this same
wavelength. This is called the eye's photopic response, but at night
it shifts slightly to become more sensitive in its scotopic response.
This is rod vision and occurs around the 510nM (5100Å) wavelength or a
pale blue.

The unintended consequence of this is that it suppress the eye's
ability to perceive red light at night (why you see them used in dark
rooms and WWII movies) which is something of a bummer for traffic
lights and taillights (they have to be brighter than they would be
normally).

Also, this discussion bears upon the answer to
"What is the wavelength of Glare?"
that has remained undiscovered by binary engineers. I bet our Readers
can catch this clue. :-)

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Richard Clark wrote:
"The unintended consequence of this (exposure to white light) is that it
suppresses the eye`s ability to perceive red light at night (why you see
them (red lights) used in dark rooms and WWII movies--..)"

I was in WW-2 and confirm that aboard my ship our chartroom (the
compartment with an opening tp tje outside) indeed was illuminated with
red lamps so that we would not be blind when we stepped outside. We were
told that we used our cones in the daytime and our rods at night. How
could I ever have remembered that?

From Lincoln`s Reference: Glare is said to reduce the ability to see,
and hastens fatigue. Glare is wasted since it lowers the effectiveness
of useful light. Glare is high light energy over a measurable period of
time from above normal angles of vision (30 to 90-degrees above the
vertical). I think this means you don`t want a bright light shining in
your eyes. It`s glaring and impairs vision for awhile.

I wasn`t a signalman but I noticed our signaling light was fitted at
night with a red filter called the "Nan-gear". Our phonetic alphabet in
those days went: able, baker, charlie, dog---nancy. I suppose Nan was
short for nighttime gear. I speculate it was hoped that the enemy would
step out of white lighted quarters and not notice our red signal beams.
So much for red lights and glare.

It probably wouldn`t work, but you might say to the policeman: I didn`t
see the red light. The white glare desensitized my eyes!

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

Nan gear was infra-red, not red. The purpose was to be non detectable
without special equipment.

"Richard Harrison" wrote in message
...
Richard Clark wrote:

I wasn`t a signalman but I noticed our signaling light was fitted at
night with a red filter called the "Nan-gear". Our phonetic alphabet in
those days went: able, baker, charlie, dog---nancy. I suppose Nan was
short for nighttime gear. I speculate it was hoped that the enemy would

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:17:13 -0500, (Richard
Harrison) wrote:

From Lincoln`s Reference: Glare is said to reduce the ability to see,
and hastens fatigue. Glare is wasted since it lowers the effectiveness
of useful light. Glare is high light energy over a measurable period of
time from above normal angles of vision (30 to 90-degrees above the
vertical). I think this means you don`t want a bright light shining in
your eyes. It`s glaring and impairs vision for awhile.

Hi Richard,

Your continued research into the topic that the originator could not
identify reveals the problems of Glare being a subjective response and
not a technical specification.

However, I have already provided technical clues to answer:
"What is the wavelength of Glare?"
that has so far evaded absolutely any response from our binary
engineer.

So far the suggestions have been that it matters to a WHO, and there
is a practical WHY to reveal the WHEREFORE. The differences in
Photopic and Scotopic vision narrow down the wavelength, but there is
a vast gulf between them. Even being a binary choice, there is still
the chance of being wrong that puts the gag on his stepping forward
with an answer. In the end I will be alone in completing this I
suppose. It will cap off my full mathematical treatment and the
exposure of this full cancellation that is TEN TIMES BRIGHTER THAN THE
SUN ;-)

This topic of Glare, being his alone, has subsequently been identified
by him as being inconsequential detail, or better yet, wholly from my
distorted imagination (but only when I examine this point).

There is still much to mine here. With errors so abundant, it is
difficult to choose any one aspect and not have to correct three
aspects of its distortions.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Ian White G/GM3SEK wrote:
As you begin to admit when challenged, the instrument itself does
nothing but add or subtract RF voltages derived by sampling the line
voltage and current.

You missed the point, Ian. THE VOLTAGE SAMPLE IS DIRECTLY
PROPORTIONAL TO THE E-FIELD AND THE CURRENT SAMPLE IS DIRECTLY
PROPORTIONAL TO THE H-FIELD. Given the assumptions about the
boundary conditions in which the Bird is placed, the Bird is
INDEED indicating the value of the Poynting Vector no matter
how indirectly. IF IT WASN'T, BIRD COULD NOT REMAIN IN BUSINESS.
That's what Bird Wattmeters do - indicate the magnitude and
direction of the Poynting Vector - assuming the instrument is
properly used.

Pz+ = E^for x H^for = Bird wattmeter reading for slug ==

Pz- = E^ref x H^ref = Bird wattmeter reading for slug ==

This is all covered in "Fields and Waves ..." by Ramo and
Whinnery. I have NOT introduced anything new. I have simply
tied together some loose ends from all the references available.
Anyone with an open and logical mind could have done exactly
the same thing.

No multiplication is involved.

On the contrary, non-linear calibration of linear meters is an
old technique for analog multiplication. I assumed you knew that
already, but maybe you are not that old. When I was in college,
we put a '1' mark at one milliamp. We put a '4' mark at 2 milliamps.
We put a '16' mark at 4 milliamps. It's a very, very, very old
technique for analog multiplication.

The calibration to indicate power is performed ENTIRELY on the meter
scale.

EXACTLY!!! YOU GOT IT!!! THAT'S ANALOG MULTIPLICATION!!! I did the
exact same thing for analog multiplication when I was in college.
Non-linear calibration of linear meters is a very, very, very old
analog computing technique. Do you even remember analog computers?
If not, I can loan you my analog computing college textbook.

It is an analog calculator.

No, it isn't.

Yes, it is. I learned all those analog techniques while in
college at Texas A&M in the 50's. Maybe you should review
a very old reference on the subject. When I was in college,
analog computers were more popular than digital computers.
Op-amps using tubes were more numerous than anything digital
(and the Texas A&M mascot was a T-Rex). You young sprouts are
just digitally-spoiled brats. :-)

In your earlier statement you said it "performs multiplication", which
is totally false. But for your final paragraph you've switched it to
"analog calculations", which is more general and thus partly true; and
then you invite me to disprove that.

It INDEED does perform analog multiplication, Ian, through the non-
linear calibration of the linear meter. I'm not trying to confuse
anyone. I just assumed you knew that already. Some of the OF's on
this newsgroup can verify what I am saying.

Cecil, I don't think you even realise you're pulling these dishonest
debating tricks... but after too many years to count, I just don't have
any more time for them.

Your ignorance does NOT equate to dishonesty on my part, Ian.
Is admitting ignorance ever worth sacrificing integrity?

plonk

Ian, instead of plonking me, as Roy did, why don't you just prove
me wrong? Wouldn't that be extremely easy given how wrong you assert
that I am?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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