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3-phase antenna.
There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna via a 3-wire
transmission line. The antenna consists of three 1/4-wave horizontal radiators spaced at 120 degee intervals. Is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane perfectly omni-directional? ---- Reg. |
Reg Edwards wrote: There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna via a 3-wire transmission line. The antenna consists of three 1/4-wave horizontal radiators spaced at 120 degee intervals. Is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane perfectly omni-directional? ---- Reg. Hi Reg, Is the 3-phase transmitter balanced with the output current equal magnitude, and the phase angle exactly 120 degrees? Is the 3-phase antenna fed via a 3-wire transmission line, or three equal length transmission lines? Us Amateurs don't have a lot of experience with 3-wire coax. Are the horizontal radiators 1/4-wave, or 1/2 wave? If they are 1/4 wave, or 1/2 wave and spaced 120 degrees in the horizontal plane, doesn't that form an equilateral triangle? So, you are feeding a triangular antenna whose sides are 1/4-wave in the centre of each side with balanced 3-phase rf energy? Even if you clarify this is I still won't know the answer to your question until I model the array. Gary N4AST |
wrote in message oups.com... Reg Edwards wrote: There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna via a 3-wire transmission line. The antenna consists of three 1/4-wave horizontal radiators spaced at 120 degee intervals. Is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane perfectly omni-directional? ---- Reg. Hi Reg, Is the 3-phase transmitter balanced with the output current equal magnitude, and the phase angle exactly 120 degrees? Is the 3-phase antenna fed via a 3-wire transmission line, or three equal length transmission lines? Us Amateurs don't have a lot of experience with 3-wire coax. Are the horizontal radiators 1/4-wave, or 1/2 wave? If they are 1/4 wave, or 1/2 wave and spaced 120 degrees in the horizontal plane, doesn't that form an equilateral triangle? So, you are feeding a triangular antenna whose sides are 1/4-wave in the centre of each side with balanced 3-phase rf energy? Even if you clarify this is I still won't know the answer to your question until I model the array. Gary N4AST ======================================= The three antenna wires are like the spokes of a wheel, spaced at 120 degrees, and each 1/4-wave in length. All in the horizontal plane. The transmission line is balanced about ground and each of the line wires is connected to one of the three antenna elements at the center of the wheel. There's no need to pull the line wires apart at the end of the line. What is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane? Also what is the equivalent load impedance between each of the line wires. ---- Reg. |
Reg Edwards wrote: wrote in message oups.com... Reg Edwards wrote: There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna via a 3-wire transmission line. The antenna consists of three 1/4-wave horizontal radiators spaced at 120 degee intervals. Is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane perfectly omni-directional? ---- Reg. Hi Reg, Is the 3-phase transmitter balanced with the output current equal magnitude, and the phase angle exactly 120 degrees? Is the 3-phase antenna fed via a 3-wire transmission line, or three equal length transmission lines? Us Amateurs don't have a lot of experience with 3-wire coax. Are the horizontal radiators 1/4-wave, or 1/2 wave? If they are 1/4 wave, or 1/2 wave and spaced 120 degrees in the horizontal plane, doesn't that form an equilateral triangle? So, you are feeding a triangular antenna whose sides are 1/4-wave in the centre of each side with balanced 3-phase rf energy? Even if you clarify this is I still won't know the answer to your question until I model the array. Gary N4AST ======================================= The three antenna wires are like the spokes of a wheel, spaced at 120 degrees, and each 1/4-wave in length. All in the horizontal plane. The transmission line is balanced about ground and each of the line wires is connected to one of the three antenna elements at the center of the wheel. There's no need to pull the line wires apart at the end of the line. What is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane? Also what is the equivalent load impedance between each of the line wires. ---- Reg. Ok, I was thinking in terms of a Delta configuration, and you were thinking of a Star Configuration. Need more time. Did you consider a Delta (triangle) configuration when you thought this up? Gary N4AST |
I am not sure, but I have been wondering for years.
Seriously It's the old question: How do you load three guy wires? 73 H. "Reg Edwards" wrote in message ... There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna via a 3-wire transmission line. The antenna consists of three 1/4-wave horizontal radiators spaced at 120 degee intervals. Is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane perfectly omni-directional? ---- Reg. |
wrote in message oups.com... Reg Edwards wrote: wrote in message oups.com... Reg Edwards wrote: There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna via a 3-wire transmission line. The antenna consists of three 1/4-wave horizontal radiators spaced at 120 degee intervals. Is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane perfectly omni-directional? ---- Reg. Hi Reg, Is the 3-phase transmitter balanced with the output current equal magnitude, and the phase angle exactly 120 degrees? Is the 3-phase antenna fed via a 3-wire transmission line, or three equal length transmission lines? Us Amateurs don't have a lot of experience with 3-wire coax. Are the horizontal radiators 1/4-wave, or 1/2 wave? If they are 1/4 wave, or 1/2 wave and spaced 120 degrees in the horizontal plane, doesn't that form an equilateral triangle? So, you are feeding a triangular antenna whose sides are 1/4-wave in the centre of each side with balanced 3-phase rf energy? Even if you clarify this is I still won't know the answer to your question until I model the array. Gary N4AST ======================================= The three antenna wires are like the spokes of a wheel, spaced at 120 degrees, and each 1/4-wave in length. All in the horizontal plane. The transmission line is balanced about ground and each of the line wires is connected to one of the three antenna elements at the center of the wheel. There's no need to pull the line wires apart at the end of the line. What is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane? Also what is the equivalent load impedance between each of the line wires. ---- Reg. Ok, I was thinking in terms of a Delta configuration, and you were thinking of a Star Configuration. Need more time. Did you consider a Delta (triangle) configuration when you thought this up? Gary N4AST Actually, I think it is delta connected. A Y connection would Imply half wave dipoles with their feedpoints connected between each of the three wires and the neutral point. I am holding my breath for the answer. Tam/WB2TT |
Reg:
I do understand this correctly, and each antenna is fed a signal 120 degrees out of electrical phase with the other 2. And, the physical placement of the also happens so as to place any specific one of the three antennas 120 degrees ahead/behind the other two in a physical circle? John On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:21:38 +0000, Reg Edwards wrote: There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna via a 3-wire transmission line. The antenna consists of three 1/4-wave horizontal radiators spaced at 120 degee intervals. Is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane perfectly omni-directional? ---- Reg. |
"John Smith" wrote in message ... Reg: I do understand this correctly, and each antenna is fed a signal 120 degrees out of electrical phase with the other 2. And, the physical placement of the also happens so as to place any specific one of the three antennas 120 degrees ahead/behind the other two in a physical circle? John Are these antennas fed with coax? Frank |
Frank:
Let's hope Reg will enlighten us on the exact specifics... I am afraid it his "word problem" and he says what is and what is not... John On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 02:34:35 +0000, Frank wrote: "John Smith" wrote in message ... Reg: I do understand this correctly, and each antenna is fed a signal 120 degrees out of electrical phase with the other 2. And, the physical placement of the also happens so as to place any specific one of the three antennas 120 degrees ahead/behind the other two in a physical circle? John Are these antennas fed with coax? Frank |
Just a hint: Think of how a turnstile antenna works. That one works in the horizontal plane with 90 degree phasing. Check the radiation patern. Reg Edwards wrote: There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna via a 3-wire transmission line. The antenna consists of three 1/4-wave horizontal radiators spaced at 120 degee intervals. Is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane perfectly omni-directional? ---- Reg. |
BKR:
Reg has " There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna..." Does this mean the transmitter is powered off 3-phase 60 cycle (if so, really doesn't affect the antenna) or is the transmitter final somehow constructed with a tank supplying 3-phase rf??? Then the "3-phase antenna", is each monopole, dipole fed though different lengths of feedline, with one 0 degree length, one 120 degree length, and one 240 degree--electrical lengths? Those brits can be tricky yanno! grin John On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 21:05:28 -0600, BKR wrote: Just a hint: Think of how a turnstile antenna works. That one works in the horizontal plane with 90 degree phasing. Check the radiation patern. Reg Edwards wrote: There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna via a 3-wire transmission line. The antenna consists of three 1/4-wave horizontal radiators spaced at 120 degee intervals. Is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane perfectly omni-directional? ---- Reg. |
I think he was providing a simplified model by eliminating phasing
lines. As I understood it he meant that there 3 outputs from the TX with 3 equal length feedlines or a special feedline, and that all are in a rotating 120 degree progression. John Smith wrote: BKR: Reg has " There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna..." Does this mean the transmitter is powered off 3-phase 60 cycle (if so, really doesn't affect the antenna) or is the transmitter final somehow constructed with a tank supplying 3-phase rf??? Then the "3-phase antenna", is each monopole, dipole fed though different lengths of feedline, with one 0 degree length, one 120 degree length, and one 240 degree--electrical lengths? Those brits can be tricky yanno! grin John On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 21:05:28 -0600, BKR wrote: Just a hint: Think of how a turnstile antenna works. That one works in the horizontal plane with 90 degree phasing. Check the radiation patern. Reg Edwards wrote: There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna via a 3-wire transmission line. The antenna consists of three 1/4-wave horizontal radiators spaced at 120 degee intervals. Is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane perfectly omni-directional? ---- Reg. |
On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:21:38 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards"
wrote: Is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane perfectly omni-directional? No (and begs the question, what IS perfect?). On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:00:33 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards" wrote: What is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane? Just like for the two lobes of a dipole, three lobes for a tripole. Also what is the equivalent load impedance between each of the line wires. 35 Ohms. Hardly comes to the class of pageantry in: On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:15:10 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards" wrote: Is there anybody about who still imagines that an SWR meter, located ... on the other side of the tuner, indicates SWR on the transmission line between transmitter and the antenna? Anybody indeed? Name someone else other than yourself, Reg. Jeesh.... Time to throw in the last spade of earth and say Amen. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
With a delta connection the line wires would have to opened out at
their ends and would radiate just as much as the triangular antenna itself. With either delta or Y connection there is no 4th neutral wire. As the whole system is balanced there would be zero current in the neutral anyway. ---- Reg. |
"Richard Clark" wrote What is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane? Just like for the two lobes of a dipole, three lobes for a tripole. Also what is the equivalent load impedance between each of the line wires. 35 Ohms. =================================== Richard, Would you care to divulge how you obtained these two answers? ---- Reg. |
"Reg Edwards" wrote in message ... With a delta connection the line wires would have to opened out at their ends and would radiate just as much as the triangular antenna itself. You are describing the Y connection. With delta connection the load is between adjacent wires of the feedline. Look at any two wires of what you describe, and there is a 1/2 wave dipole, center fed, formed by two of the 1/4 wave radiators. But, instead of the two halves of the dipole being fed 180 degrees out of phase, they are 120 degrees. Each 1/4 wave radiator is part of two different dipoles. Each dipole is bent 60 degrees at the feed point. As for the feeedline, I presume what you have is like a twisted pair, but there are 3 wires, not 2 You could not use a flat transmission line because it would not be symmetrical. Tam With either delta or Y connection there is no 4th neutral wire. As the whole system is balanced there would be zero current in the neutral anyway. ---- Reg. |
On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:51:12 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards"
wrote: "Richard Clark" wrote What is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane? Just like for the two lobes of a dipole, three lobes for a tripole. Also what is the equivalent load impedance between each of the line wires. 35 Ohms. =================================== Richard, Would you care to divulge how you obtained these two answers? Hi Reg, Sure. Why don't you first confirm them? On the other hand - how could it be otherwise? 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:21:38 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards"
wrote: There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna via a 3-wire transmission line. The antenna consists of three 1/4-wave horizontal radiators spaced at 120 degee intervals. Is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane perfectly omni-directional? ---- Reg. No. Effectively you are feeding two legs with a -120 degree phase and that will make it directional. For Omnidirectional operation ALL legs will have to be fed in phase. If the three sources are laggin in phase then the feed system will have to correct the phase till all are in phase. Many years ago, there was a CB (USA 27mhz 11m) that used three vertical dipoles with phasing to get directionality or omnidirectional gain. Allison |
nospam:
That cb antenna (with the 3 dipoles arranged so as to go omni/directional) was called a "scanner", made by antenna specialists I believe (reed switches in a relay box control the elements.) I cut one down, along with the phasing harness to the center of the 10 meter band, works great! And you are correct, the three 120 degree spaced vertical dipoles are fed in phase for omni-pattern. John On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:22:29 +0000, nospam wrote: On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:21:38 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards" wrote: There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna via a 3-wire transmission line. The antenna consists of three 1/4-wave horizontal radiators spaced at 120 degee intervals. Is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane perfectly omni-directional? ---- Reg. No. Effectively you are feeding two legs with a -120 degree phase and that will make it directional. For Omnidirectional operation ALL legs will have to be fed in phase. If the three sources are laggin in phase then the feed system will have to correct the phase till all are in phase. Many years ago, there was a CB (USA 27mhz 11m) that used three vertical dipoles with phasing to get directionality or omnidirectional gain. Allison |
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On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 11:28:52 -0700, John Smith
wrote: nospam: That cb antenna (with the 3 dipoles arranged so as to go omni/directional) was called a "scanner", made by antenna specialists I believe (reed switches in a relay box control the elements.) Yep thats it, got stuck for a name. I cut one down, along with the phasing harness to the center of the 10 meter band, works great! And you are correct, the three 120 degree spaced vertical dipoles are fed in phase for omni-pattern. Many years ago I help a ham friend (now SK) set up a foursquare. that four vertical monopoles with goundplane with phasing feed for gain and directionality. It was a very good antenna for 20M. Early in my commercial career I worked part time for an AM BCB station and would help with antenna tuning for directional pattern. Imagine three big (300ft) towers in a field with about that much space between them in a line. The feed and phasing coils were BIG, the usual pattern was cartioid with the weak null facing the atlantic ocean to the southeast. Just a bigger version of many phased arrays I'd see in my commercial career. Allison KB1GMX |
Me wrote:
In article .com, wrote: Us Amateurs don't have a lot of experience That's why they call you "Amateurs".....the Professional Radio Engineers understand perfectly what the OP was talking about, and exactly why, and how, this type of antenna system is used in the real world of communications, both fixed and mobile. Me who has been around the biz, since almost before Moses..... I am glad they call me an Amateur, because that is what I am. The word Amateur is in the name of this Newsgroup. It is obvious Professional Radio Engineers would understand what Reg was talking about, but this is an Amateur Newsgroup. Why don't you go to the Professional Antenna Designer Newsgroup (if there is one) and ask the question that Reg did? I don't think they would all understand perfectly, but I may be wrong, because I am an amateur. By the way, are you an Amateur Radio Operator? Gary N4AST |
"Richard Clark" wrote in message ... On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:21:38 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards" wrote: Is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane perfectly omni-directional? No (and begs the question, what IS perfect?). On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:00:33 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards" wrote: What is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane? Just like for the two lobes of a dipole, three lobes for a tripole. Also what is the equivalent load impedance between each of the line wires. 35 Ohms. Hardly comes to the class of pageantry in: On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:15:10 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards" wrote: Is there anybody about who still imagines that an SWR meter, located ... on the other side of the tuner, indicates SWR on the transmission line between transmitter and the antenna? Anybody indeed? Name someone else other than yourself, Reg. Jeesh.... Time to throw in the last spade of earth and say Amen. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC I ran EZNEC on what I think is an equivalent arrangement, and got a gain max/min ratio of about 4db. Got an impedance of 29 Ohms. With multiple sources, I have trouble visualizing what that means. That may actually be 87 Ohms line to line. Tam/WB2TT |
On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 20:00:16 -0400, "Tam/WB2TT"
wrote: I have trouble visualizing what that means. Hi Tam, What do you mean by that? You have a source pushing current into an element against a counterpoise, an active one albeit, but all counterpoises support current too (hence the symmetry of resistance). Just another condition of the ENTIRE structure radiating energy (where some would have energy cancelled rather than the power product into a remote load). Yes, the three leaf trifoil is not very pronounced, and only below an elevation or 45 degrees or so. However, Reg introduced this with the strong suggestion of perfection. Perhaps his usual indirection. ;-) A 4-phase antenna shows a similar lobing to a smaller degree, and a 5-phase antenna is for all practical purposes circular. I had to solve a problem like this a couple of years ago with a design for the Army to test their Helicopter pilots for mental alertness. This involved building a uniform field of even illumination over a visual angle of 180 degrees horizontal and 90 degrees vertical (roughly the entire field of view). I was tasked to present no more variation than a couple of percent ripple. It took about 100 light sources 1 cM from the eyes. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
"Richard Clark" wrote in message ... On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 20:00:16 -0400, "Tam/WB2TT" wrote: I have trouble visualizing what that means. Hi Tam, What do you mean by that? You have a source pushing current into an element against a counterpoise, an active one albeit, but all counterpoises support current too (hence the symmetry of resistance). Just another condition of the ENTIRE structure radiating energy (where some would have energy cancelled rather than the power product into a remote load). Yes, the three leaf trifoil is not very pronounced, and only below an elevation or 45 degrees or so. However, Reg introduced this with the strong suggestion of perfection. Perhaps his usual indirection. ;-) A 4-phase antenna shows a similar lobing to a smaller degree, and a 5-phase antenna is for all practical purposes circular. I had to solve a problem like this a couple of years ago with a design for the Army to test their Helicopter pilots for mental alertness. This involved building a uniform field of even illumination over a visual angle of 180 degrees horizontal and 90 degrees vertical (roughly the entire field of view). I was tasked to present no more variation than a couple of percent ripple. It took about 100 light sources 1 cM from the eyes. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC Hi Richard, My main problem was interpreting what EZNEC meant when it told me the impedance was 29 Ohms at resonance. Missed the fact that it displays the Z for each generator independently. 29 is the impedance to neutral. So, that makes it 87 Ohms line to line. I did this in free space. There is no NET current in the neutral. Tam |
On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:03:00 -0400, "Tam/WB2TT"
wrote: My main problem was interpreting what EZNEC meant when it told me the impedance was 29 Ohms at resonance. Missed the fact that it displays the Z for each generator independently. 29 is the impedance to neutral. So, that makes it 87 Ohms line to line. I did this in free space. There is no NET current in the neutral. Hi Tam, I took the more practical (amusing given the absurd complication of a 3-phase RF source) route of putting the antenna ¼ above earth. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
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Me wrote:
In article .com, wrote: By the way, are you an Amateur Radio Operator? Gary N4AST Since 1964 Me Awe! A newcomer! You must be QCWA*2 minimum to post on this list. :-) |
Me wrote: In article .com, wrote: By the way, are you an Amateur Radio Operator? Gary N4AST Since 1964 Me Well Me, as for me, Amateur since 1963, professional radio engineer, never. I did install some cb antennas during the early 1970's and got paid, so I may be a professional antenna installer? Hope by these acts I didn't give up my Amateur status. Was in college at the time and did not have much $$. Why don't you give your call? Gary N4AST |
In article ,
Ham op wrote: Awe! A newcomer! You must be QCWA*2 minimum to post on this list. :-) says who...... Me |
Reg, G4FGQ wrote:
"There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna via a 3-wire transmission line. The antenna consists of three 1/4-wave horizontal radiators spaced at 120 degree intervals. Is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane perfectly omnidirectional?" The question is easy, I think. The horizontal 1/4-wave elements have nulls off their tips, so they can`t produce a perfect omnidirectional pattern. Not knowing when to quit, I`ll also speculate that at distant points from the antenna, the total phase from two elements will produce a total phase difference of 180-degrees which consists of a total of radiated field degree difference and path distance degree difference. Maybe more nulls. I wrote "two elements", because I`m thinking of a dipole in a V configuration with the 3rd element perpendicular to the dipole as being more or less along for the ride. Perhaps that`s an oversimplification. Someone likely has a program which will model Reg`s 3-phase antenna. I don`t, and I have no experience with 3-phase antennas. I`ve done 3-phase circuit problems and recognize the balanced load, even if the antennas are unbalanced. The system is symmetrical, so each of the loads (antenna elements) takes the same power. The total load power is 3 times the power of a single element. The loads are resonant, so (cos theta) is unity. The elements look like resistors. Element power is element volts times element amps. The load is equivalent to a Y-connection.. So, the line to line voltage is the square root of 3 (1.732) times the volts between the line and neutral. Reg also wanted to know the impedance of the antenna, I believe, but its numerical value depends on construction, height of the elements, their size, and coupling, if any, to their surroundings. 35 ohms might have been a good guess. Voltage to current ratio of the elements gives their resistance. The volts or amps of the balanced 3-phases can be represented by three equal arrows separated by 120-degrees. Their instantaneous values always total zero. The idea of a polyphase antenna is interesting but I don`t see what justifies its increased complexity, unless it happens to place nulls exactly where needed for required protection of broadcasters already on the air or permitted when a new broadcaster is seeking accommodation. In that case, the elements would most likely be vertical to launch a decent ground wave. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI |
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The pattern would look like a triangle, so the answer to your question is
no. Reg, G4FGQ wrote: "There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna via a 3-wire transmission line. The antenna consists of three 1/4-wave horizontal radiators spaced at 120 degree intervals. Is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane perfectly omnidirectional?" |
You're darn close. A WELL rounded triangle. Fred W4JLE wrote: The pattern would look like a triangle, so the answer to your question is no. Reg, G4FGQ wrote: "There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna via a 3-wire transmission line. The antenna consists of three 1/4-wave horizontal radiators spaced at 120 degree intervals. Is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane perfectly omnidirectional?" |
"BKR" wrote in message ... You're darn close. A WELL rounded triangle. Interestingly, you can make it a perfect circle by connecting the ends of the 3 radiators with a conductor that forms a circle. ie a 3 phase halo. If you look at the radiation pattern for this arrangement, or Reg's original one in free space, the major gain is perpenticular to the plane of the radiators, not in plane, although the effect is not very pronounced. Tam/WB2TT Fred W4JLE wrote: The pattern would look like a triangle, so the answer to your question is no. Reg, G4FGQ wrote: "There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna via a 3-wire transmission line. The antenna consists of three 1/4-wave horizontal radiators spaced at 120 degree intervals. Is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane perfectly omnidirectional?" |
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