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feedlines and strange intereactions
Hi Group,
Recently,I put up a linear-loaded dipole for 160-10m. It's ladderline,4/1 balun, to coax,to good brand auto-tuner. It's supposed to work with 100ft. of ladderline,BUT.... It wouldn't cover the lower portions of 160. To get this antenna to work on 160, I had to cut off 20ft. of ladderline, AND also use a 50ft. piece of coax! I tried using only 20ft. of coax because that's all I need to get to my tuner,but it didn't work! ! ! What happened here, to me,goes against almost everything that I learned about feedlines! Change the lenth of coax ? The 100ft. of ladderline was at least 1/4 wavelenth of 160,right? The feedpoint is at 55ft. on a tower ( about 2ft. away the tower) the ends are in an inverted-"V" at about 15ft. above the ground. I do have a 80m/ 272ft. loop also in the 1/8 of an acre back yard. Some small 2 & 6m beams hung of the tower,not near enough to cause intereaction. WHY AM I HAVING such a hard time getting this antenna to cover this bandspread ??? Also, IF I have a multi-band antenna,feed with ladderline ONLY, to a very good tuner; Why are the signals that I rercieve on the higher bands,(160-10m) usually SO LOW in strength ? Ex: On 160 or 80,the antennas s-meter usually reads over s-9 at night,o.k. Now, the same antenna on 10m or 20m during the day are reading very low; mostly around 3's and 4's. I guess that I really don't think that calling THESE antennas "a 160-10m antenna" or my Loop a 80-10m antenna! ! I've had both antennas up now for at least a month. Signals for 20m-10m need a different antenna, In my opinion. BUT, I'm still trying to understand exactly just WHAT antennas can or cannot do for me. 73's,and keep radio-active, Paladin |
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Paladin wrote:
BUT, I'm still trying to understand exactly just WHAT antennas can or cannot do for me. That's what antenna modeling programs are for. A free demo version of EZNEC is available at www.eznec.com and will probably do what you want done including the primary transmission line length. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
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Cecil,
I do not know how to use such programs. I'm a "late" bloomer,in computor terms. I guess that I'm stuck with trial and error until I find a way to shorten my feedline in the same way that the antenna builder did in shortening the elements of the linear-loaded dipole. Long sentence,huh? Paladin The elements are 70ft. long each,BUT the electrical lenth IS really 210ft. per side. I know that 100ft. of 450 ladderline didn't work. |
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"Cecil Moore" wrote That's what antenna modeling programs are for. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cec, You should realise it's a waste of time pointing people towards computer programs which require a 6-weeks full-time training course to understand what its all about. And which they don't possess anyway. Especially when a few sentences of plain English can provide an adequate explanation to the enquirer. ---- Regards, Reg. |
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Reg Edwards wrote: "Cecil Moore" wrote That's what antenna modeling programs are for. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cec, You should realise it's a waste of time pointing people towards computer programs which require a 6-weeks full-time training course to understand what its all about. And which they don't possess anyway. Especially when a few sentences of plain English can provide an adequate explanation to the enquirer. ---- Regards, Reg. Hi Reg., The question was certaintly not a few sentences of plain English. If the enquirer had shortened his description to a few well defined sentences he might have some answers by now. The demo version of EZNEC is free, as are your programs. Niether require 6 weeks to learn. My advice is to model the antenna, or give more precise question(s). Gary N4AST |
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Reg Edwards wrote:
Cec, You should realise it's a waste of time pointing people towards computer programs which require a 6-weeks full-time training course to understand what its all about. Reg, if I can learn ELNEC in two years, anyone can do it. :-) -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
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I guess that an old man who hasn't been into electronics very long.
But, I do possess a fair amount of common sense. I can see that you guys can't or won't help me figure out my problem. Too many issues here. Everyone has SOME area of excellence. I just haven't found the right person who WILL help. Life is filled with people who can only see their way. Words are not as powerful as IDEAS. Thanks for the "words", fellas. |
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"Cecil Moore" wrote Reg Edwards wrote: Cec, You should realise it's a waste of time pointing people towards computer programs which require a 6-weeks full-time training course to understand what its all about. Reg, if I can learn ELNEC in two years, anyone can do it. :-) ==================================== Cec, What is ELNEC? OK, I can guess! Quite truthfully, if you had pointed ME towards EZNEC then I am unable even to download and un-zip it. Acually, I do have a copy. Some years back Roy took pity on me and, without any request from me, very kindly broke the rules and airmailed me a free parcel of 3.25" floppy disks. It took me a week to print out the instruction handbook and another 2 weeks just to read it by which time I had forgotten what the problem was. 'Experts' should realise, from the manner in which questions are written, the predicament some questioners are in and make allowances instead of leaving them to flounder about in a sea of frustration and despondency. N4AST's comments are unworthy. ---- Regards, Reg. |
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Paladin wrote:
I guess that an old man who hasn't been into electronics very long. But, I do possess a fair amount of common sense. I can see that you guys can't or won't help me figure out my problem. Too many issues here. Everyone has SOME area of excellence. I just haven't found the right person who WILL help. Life is filled with people who can only see their way. Words are not as powerful as IDEAS. Thanks for the "words", fellas. I think there are people willing to help but from your original posting, there was not enough information for me to model your antenna. I don't recall you even telling us the length of your inv-V dipole. And what did you mean by "linear loaded"? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
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Reg Edwards wrote:
Cec, What is ELNEC? OK, I can guess! ELNEC was the DOS-based ancestor of EZNEC. (W7 EL NEC) It remains the piece of software in my entire life with which I was most amazed and delighted. For me, ELNEC rekindled the "magic" of amateur radio. 'Experts' should realise, from the manner in which questions are written, the predicament some questioners are in and make allowances instead of leaving them to flounder about in a sea of frustration and despondency. But 'Experts' need to know the length of the antenna which, to the best of my knowledge, wasn't given in the original posting. That's why I recommended EZNEC. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
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The elements are "linear-loaded" . They are folded back on
themselves. The phsical length is 70ft.,But the electrical length is 210ft. long ! Now, is this strange dipole a 140ft. long,OR is it 420ft. long ? ? That's why the feedline is so much problem............I've built over 2 doz. antennas;this one IS tricky ! I have only 1/8 acre of land; Hence the problems with dipole lengths,and feedline lengths.....:-) |
feedlines and strange intereactions
Paladin wrote:
The elements are "linear-loaded". They are folded back on themselves. The phsical length is 70ft.,But the electrical length is 210ft. long Something like this? (fixed font) 35' 35' -------------------------+ +------------------------- | | +------------------------+ +------------------------+ | | +------------------------+ +------------------------+ | | | | | | feedline How far apart are the adjacent wires spaced? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
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But 'Experts' need to know the length of the antenna which, to the
best of my knowledge, wasn't given in the original posting. That's why I recommended EZNEC. -- 73, Cecil ================================ Dear Cec, So, if you had anything to say, why didn't you just ask him how long is his antenna instead of sending him off on a wild goose chase? I must admit you got nearer to discovering what was missing than I did. Let's see what happens now. ---- Reg, G4FGQ |
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Reg Edwards wrote:
So, if you had anything to say, why didn't you just ask him how long is his antenna instead of sending him off on a wild goose chase? Reg, a standing recommendation of mine is to download the free demo version of EZNEC and have fun learning how to use it. Any amateur radio operator who succeeds in doing so will be rewarded for the effort expended (and was also a source of extreme pleasure in my case). ELNEC/EZNEC and the Smith Chart (Microsmith) are the most useful tools I have ever encountered for comprehension of antenna systems. (Not considering reference books as "tools".) -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
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Cec, as an aside, when people are conversing with each other, 50
percent of the information passing to and fro is conveyed by body language. Body language is completely lacking when conversing via newsgroups. This can very easily lead to misunderstanding and futile argument. People should check and recheck what they have said before posting. The existence of certain types of spelling mistakes and obvious grammatical errors are a guide to the care and attention which has been paid by the sender to saying what he intended to say. I admit, very careless senders do not deserve any replies. Not because absence of reply is an unsaid reprimand but because they have indicated their inability to understand a reply if they get one. Then there are trollers! This message is primarily intended for people seeking solutions to problems. I have had only two glasses of white wine. (South African). And I don't know how to use a spell-checker even if I had one. ---- Yours, Reg, G4FGQ |
feedlines and strange intereactions
"Cecil Moore" wrote Reg, a standing recommendation of mine is to download the free demo version of EZNEC and have fun learning how to use it. Any amateur radio operator who succeeds in doing so will be rewarded for the effort expended (and was also a source of extreme pleasure in my case). ELNEC/EZNEC and the Smith Chart (Microsmith) are the most useful tools I have ever encountered for comprehension of antenna systems. (Not considering reference books as "tools".) -- =================================== Dear Cec, In the present context, in the absence of body language, your praise of EZNEC can perhaps be misconstrued as my criticism of that erstwhile computer program. On the contrary, I quite agree with your comments. Regarding the Smith Chart, I have myself never found it to be of any use. In fact I don't know how to use it. I am aware of its long-standing existence, and what it is purported to achieve, from this newsgroup and from the one or two ancient 'bibles' which I seldom refer to. But the absence of a Smith Chart may be due to some vague shortcoming in my education for which I have no responsibility. So I have never felt myself to be handicapped in any way. Indeed, I have gained from this and other websites the impression that I am considered to be a transmission line 'expert'. But I claim only to be a well-educated, useful engineer who also happens, in retirement, to be a radio amateur with the ability to express myself in plain written English. To continue with my earlier message, I have just finished a third glass of white, South African wine. But enough about me. What are you doing about Bush? ---- Reg. |
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And I have never been criticised for begining a sentence with "and".
---- Reg. |
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Reg Edwards wrote:
But enough about me. What are you doing about Bush? I don't have to do anything about Bush, Reg. He is fast running out of feet in which to shoot himself. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
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The wires are close. The builder used rotor feed line. 3 equal
lengths of wires 70ft. long THAT make one element. there is one on the oppisite side. |
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I believe that REG and CECIL have lost the idea of what I asked in
the begining. I'm NOT a dog going around in a circle chasing his tail ! I want some FACTS. NOT endless chatter, about the worlds demise! I have a bought antenna made of wire. Yes, I should have built it myself,BUT I didn't. I need to know how to fix "said" antenna, and intergrate it into my small land. 1/8 of an acre. ON4UN's book on "low band dxing" states that there aren't any PROGRAMS for linear-loaded ant.'s out there. oh well, I guess that I'll just haffta go back to 2m ! |
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Paladin wrote:
ON4UN's book on "low band dxing" states that there aren't any PROGRAMS for linear-loaded ant.'s out there. That may be true but if we space the parallel conductors a foot apart, take a look with EZNEC, and it's a dog of an antenna, we can draw certain conclusions about the closer spacing of your antenna. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
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Paladin wrote:
The wires are close. The builder used rotor feed line. 3 equal lengths of wires 70ft. long THAT make one element. there is one on the oppisite side. So like this? 70' 70' -------------------------+ +------------------------- | | +------------------------+ +------------------------+ | | +------------------------+ +------------------------+ | | | | | | feedline -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
feedlines and strange intereactions
Paladin wrote:
"I just haven`t found the right person who will help." Help, it seems, is the answer Paladin wants to hear. When you want to put 8 pounds of crap in a 4-pound bag, life is often that way. You quickly run out of good advice. When a respondent says there`s no computer program to tell you how to linearly-load an antenna wire, you are invited to prove him wrong. The ARRL Antenna Book says: "Since the dimensions and spacing of linear-loading devices vary greatly from one antenna to another, the best way to employ this technique is to try a length of conductor 10% to 20% longer than the difference between the shortened antenna and the full-size dimension for the linear-loading device. Then use te "cut-anhd-try" method, varying both the spacing and length of the loading device to optimize the match." You might write a program for that. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI |
feedlines and strange intereactions
On 16 Nov 2005 08:19:33 -0800, "Paladin" wrote:
Hi Group, Recently,I put up a linear-loaded dipole for 160-10m. It's ladderline,4/1 balun, to coax,to good brand auto-tuner. It's supposed to work with 100ft. of ladderline,BUT.... Hi OM, It's "supposed to work" is the key phrase here - according to who? Perhaps this is your greatest difficulty in finding help for a design that won't be helped. It wouldn't cover the lower portions of 160. To get this antenna to work on 160, I had to cut off 20ft. of ladderline, AND also use a 50ft. piece of coax! I tried using only 20ft. of coax because that's all I need to get to my tuner,but it didn't work! ! ! Your statement here contains a great degree of success in it. It would appear that you have higher expectations than could be reasonably expected. Why are the signals that I rercieve on the higher bands,(160-10m) usually SO LOW in strength ? Ex: On 160 or 80,the antennas s-meter usually reads over s-9 at night,o.k. Now, the same antenna on 10m or 20m during the day are reading very low; mostly around 3's and 4's. The linear loading that you have described in further correspondence is not particularly remarkable. It follows the aphorism to put more wire higher into the air, but in reality, that more wire also needs more volume (surface area, what-have-you). The triple-backed rotor cable has been trotted out here before, and has never been shown to be anything but a good match - perhaps. You can load a resistor to the same effect and you may note similar performance issues in that correlation. If you want to keep more wire in the air, build a fantail dipole or a cage dipole and use more than three wires (six to a dozen instead) with a truly large, effective diameter at the end. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
feedlines and strange intereactions
Cecil Moore wrote:
Paladin wrote: The wires are close. The builder used rotor feed line. 3 equal lengths of wires 70ft. long THAT make one element. there is one on the oppisite side. So like this? 70' 70' -------------------------+ +------------------------- | | +------------------------+ +------------------------+ | | +------------------------+ +------------------------+ | | | | | | feedline Hi Cecil, that's what I understand. To a first approximation, on 160 meters, the radiation from the two segments furthest from the feed point should cancel. That would leave the effective antenna as a shortened dipole with a length of 55 degrees per leg [two 80 foot long segments per side]. This should yield a radiation resistance of somewhere around 10 to 15 ohms with a significant capacitive reactance of between 500 to 1000 ohms. His 100 foot long feed line is only 69 degrees long. I believe this short a matching section, i.e. "stub", may be insufficient to achieve a '50 ohm' match. I would expect the antenna gain to be -2 to -3 dBd. Comments?? |
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N4AST's comments are unworthy. ---- Regards, Reg. HI Reg, Unworthy of what? That's like saying your programs smell, but not what they smell like-:). I for one an grateful and have used your programs, and EZNEC. I consider them both an asset to to my knowledge of antennas. Gary N4AST |
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Thanks a lot, Mike
This antenna IS getting the best of me |
feedlines and strange intereactions
Well, In it's "finality", I think that for my lot,and my skills,and
my "want" to get on "160meters" I chose the WRONG antenna. I don't believe that I will ever get this antenna to work well enough FOR ME. I would've been better spending the time and aggrevation on getting my 80m,full-wave loop at 40ft. to cover 160. Gentlemen, I'm done! Stick a fork in me. I thank all who tried to understand WHAT I was trying to do. Maybe next time, I'll stick to "ONLY" the basic antenna's,and "Keep it simple , STUPID"!; will be my motto !! I'll read more, and do less.........Paladin |
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On 21 Nov 2005 09:58:34 -0800, "Paladin" wrote:
Well, In it's "finality", I think that for my lot,and my skills,and my "want" to get on "160meters" I chose the WRONG antenna. I don't believe that I will ever get this antenna to work well enough FOR ME. Hi OM, Well, you still have options. Tie all the wires together and use them as a top hat to a vertical. Verticals have far more reported success on 160M than horizontals. Of course, you will need to plant more copper in the ground than you lifted into the air.... 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
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Paladin wrote:
Thanks a lot, Mike This antenna IS getting the best of me I know what you mean, Paladin! And 160 meters is a real booger of a band for most of us to have a horizontal antenna. There are loaded antennas, but I suspect you want multiband performance. I suspect you could tune a loaded antenna cut for 160 meters, but I'd also expect that the radiation pattern on the highest bands would be a bit weird. Speaking of weird, I wonder in anyone has made a multiband antenna, loaded on 160, and trapped for the other bands? 8^) What might be a good setup to get you on 160 meters and more would be a vertical antenna. They are a compromise, but most top band antennas are. AFAIC, they are a compromise on most of the other bands too. That is why I have a dipole in addition to a Butternut HF6V. - 73 de Mike KB3EIA - |
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Reg Edwards g4fgq,regp@ZZZbtinternet,com wrote:
Regarding the Smith Chart, I have myself never found it to be of any use. In fact I don't know how to use it. I have nothing to add to this thread other than to say that I thought the above was an odd combination of sentences. But enough about me. What are you doing about Bush? Because he's my Commander-in-Chief I support him in every regard. But aside from that, he's doing exactly what I'm paying him to do (with respect to my federal taxes helping to pay his salary). He's a good man but I'm afraid you've been brainwashed by the liberal media to think otherwise. 73 from Hawaii, Jeff KH6O -- Chief Petty Officer, U.S. Coast Guard Mathematics Lecturer, University of Hawaii System |
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Thanks Rich, As we get closer to that dreaded season called
"Winter-wonderland" I'll remember that idea on some cold'n blustery day! Don't even have to climb a step ladder to do that! 73's, Paladin |
feedlines and strange intereactions
On 22/11/2005 1:46 AM, Jeffrey Herman wrote:
Reg Edwards g4fgq,regp@ZZZbtinternet,com wrote: Regarding the Smith Chart, I have myself never found it to be of any use. In fact I don't know how to use it. I have nothing to add to this thread other than to say that I thought the above was an odd combination of sentences. 'Tis odd, indeed. But enough about me. What are you doing about Bush? Because he's my Commander-in-Chief I support him in every regard. But aside from that, he's doing exactly what I'm paying him to do (with respect to my federal taxes helping to pay his salary). He's a good man but I'm afraid you've been brainwashed by the liberal media to think otherwise. Totally off topic, but you do know what "liberal" really means when used to describe political ideals, right? I mean, you've looked it up as it is used in political studies or anthropology? This word gets a lot of use in today's polemics (especially in the US, where it has become quite the loaded term) but it is usually misapplied in this context. To the point of being used in the exact opposite from the definition. That is, not just simple connotative slip. (For some reason, the line from _The Princess Bride_ came to mind, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.") (Inconceivable!) Also, I'm pretty sure you don't know your president personally, so it is technically a fallacy to say "he is a good man." Perhaps you surmise from his actions (or the second-hand, imperfect, reports of such actions) that he has qualities you admire? The problem, of course, is that just as many people could come to the opposite determination of the president being a "bad man" by the very same actions. I mean, how does one know if they are the one being brain-washed or not? I'm also puzzled why one would espouse total support of a "Commander-in-Chief" simply because he is "the Chief." I'm not singling you out, as I see examples of this sentiment everywhere (i.e., not just in the US.) It seems to go against the principles of democracy and informed citizenry. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that such a sentiment is more a fundamental marker of totalitarianism. |
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clvrmnky wrote:
Also, I'm pretty sure you don't know your president personally, so it is technically a fallacy to say "he is a good man." Perhaps you surmise from his actions (or the second-hand, imperfect, reports of such actions) that he has qualities you admire? The problem, of course, is that just as many people could come to the opposite determination of the president being a "bad man" by the very same actions. I mean, how does one know if they are the one being brain-washed or not? Is saying bad things about people you don't know morally equivalent to saying good things about them? Some people believe that if it is repeated often enough and long enough, it will become so. I'm also puzzled why one would espouse total support of a "Commander-in-Chief" simply because he is "the Chief." The not-so clvr mnky might consider that to those for whom the current Commander-in-Chief is Commander-in-Chief, it's pretty clear whose side he is on. ac6xg |
feedlines and strange intereactions
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:48:28 -0500, clvrmnky
wrote: (For some reason, the line from _The Princess Bride_ came to mind, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.") (Inconceivable!) Not having seen _The Princess Bride_, it would seem to be pointless to be one in the context of _Inconceivable!_ |
feedlines and strange intereactions
"clvrmnky" bravely wrote to "All" (22 Nov 05 16:48:28)
--- on the heady topic of " feedlines and strange intereactions" cl From: clvrmnky cl Xref: core-easynews rec.radio.amateur.antenna:220293 cl On 22/11/2005 1:46 AM, Jeffrey Herman wrote: Reg Edwards g4fgq,regp@ZZZbtinternet,com wrote: Regarding the Smith Chart, I have myself never found it to be of any use. In fact I don't know how to use it. I have nothing to add to this thread other than to say that I thought the above was an odd combination of sentences. cl 'Tis odd, indeed. But enough about me. What are you doing about Bush? Because he's my Commander-in-Chief I support him in every regard. But aside from that, he's doing exactly what I'm paying him to do (with respect to my federal taxes helping to pay his salary). He's a good man but I'm afraid you've been brainwashed by the liberal media to think otherwise. [,,,] cl I'm also puzzled why one would espouse total support of a cl "Commander-in-Chief" simply because he is "the Chief." I'm not cl singling you out, as I see examples of this sentiment everywhere cl (i.e., not just in the US.) It seems to go against the principles of cl democracy and informed citizenry. I don't think I'm exaggerating when cl I say that such a sentiment is more a fundamental marker of cl totalitarianism. One should never let political allegiances make one deny what one believes is true and against good judgement. Blind acceptance is to open the door to let the goosestepping brutes into the human race. I agree... A*s*i*m*o*v .... Murphy's rule of combat: Incoming fire has right of way |
feedlines and strange intereactions
On 22/11/2005 5:43 PM, Jim Kelley wrote:
clvrmnky wrote: Also, I'm pretty sure you don't know your president personally, so it is technically a fallacy to say "he is a good man." Perhaps you surmise from his actions (or the second-hand, imperfect, reports of such actions) that he has qualities you admire? The problem, of course, is that just as many people could come to the opposite determination of the president being a "bad man" by the very same actions. I mean, how does one know if they are the one being brain-washed or not? Is saying bad things about people you don't know morally equivalent to saying good things about them? Some people believe that if it is repeated often enough and long enough, it will become so. Your question puzzles me. I don't recall making any value statements, or mentioning any moral imperatives. People say things. Other people hear them, or hear about it from others. We can only arrive at some concrete value for abstracts like "good" or "true" by consensus and examination. I'm also puzzled why one would espouse total support of a "Commander-in-Chief" simply because he is "the Chief." The not-so clvr mnky might consider that to those for whom the current Commander-in-Chief is Commander-in-Chief, it's pretty clear whose side he is on. We have met the enemy, and he is us! Seriously, I have no idea what you are driving at. Whose side is who on? I was speaking to the notion that tautologies such as "I support the chief because he is the chief" seem odd to me. Even the inverse is a tautology. |
feedlines and strange intereactions
clvrmnky wrote:
Also, I'm pretty sure you don't know your president personally, so it is technically a fallacy to say "he is a good man." We judge people daily by their actions and their stated beliefs. His actions exactly follow his beliefs: Freedom is a God given right, and we will do everything in our power to help those that are oppressed. Perhaps you surmise from his actions (or the second-hand, imperfect, reports of such actions) that he has qualities you admire? The problem, of course, is that just as many people could come to the opposite determination of the president being a "bad man" by the very same actions. I mean, how does one know if they are the one being brain-washed or not? Fundamental differences in what people believe (e.g., preemptive action versus complacency) will determine their opinion. Is saying bad things about people you don't know morally equivalent to saying good things about them? I'm not convinced that saying bad things about someone you don't know has any moral value at all, unless one's negative image of that person is based upon that person's actions and beliefs. I'm also puzzled why one would espouse total support of a "Commander-in-Chief" simply because he is "the Chief." You're puzzled due to the fact that you've never served in the armed forces of the United States. (Follow-ups set to email.) 73, Jeff KH6O -- Chief Petty Officer, U.S. Coast Guard Mathematics Lecturer, University of Hawaii System |
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