K7ITM wrote:

There are several possible reasons for being interested in standing
waves (on transmission lines). Some are valid, some are not, and
you'll even get plenty of, um, discussion about what's valid and what
isn't.

If your goal is to get maximum power delivered to a load, then it's
good to minimize standing waves on the line delivering power to that
load, because a line delivering a particular amount of power to a load
will have greater power lost in the line with greater standing waves.
If the line is being used near its maximum power or voltage rating,
standing waves are a concern because for a given power delivered to the
load, the rms current at current nodes and the peak voltage at voltage
nodes both increase with increased standing waves. And a high standing
wave ratio on a line which is long compared with a wavelength suggests
that the input impedance to the line will vary rapidly with frequency,
whereas a line with low standing wave ratio will present a relatively
constant impedance to the driving source, assuming the load is
reasonably "flat" with frequency.

As an example of this last point, a 30 meter (~100 foot) 50 ohm line
with 0.8 velocity factor and very low loss, delivering power to a 50
ohm load at 450MHz, will present a 50 ohm load to the driving source.
But delivering power to a 200 ohm load, the source will "see" almost
200 ohms at frequencies where the line is an integer number of
electrical half-waves long, and it will "see" just over 12.5 ohms
midway between those frequencies. You get 200 ohms at 440MHz, 12.5
ohms at 442MHz--and reactive in between.

It's possible to use stubs and series line sections to effect an
impedance match between a load and a line. For example, the right
length and impedance series section will give you a match at one
particular frequency, at least, and multiple sections can give you a
"perfect" match at multiple frequencies, with (perhaps) quite
acceptable match over a range of frequencies.

There are lists of analogs among electrical, mechanical, acoustic, and
other media. "electrical hydraulic impedance analog" in a Google
search will give you many hits.

Cheers,
Tom

Thanks for your reply. I have a few questions. When you say "standing
waves", I take it that one can have more than one on the line?

I follow your example, but I may come back to it once I've done the calcs.

How does one know they want to improve their impedance match? Why doesn't
there seem to be a need for this (probably through a balun) on a standard AM
radio with a 1/2 wave line antenna or even some ferrite coil? Is there some
auto-balun that works this all out?

Wayne T. Watson (Watson Adventures, Prop., Nevada City, CA)
(121.015 Deg. W, 39.262 Deg. N) GMT-8 hr std. time)
Obz Site: 39° 15' 7" N, 121° 2' 32" W, 2700 feet

"He who laughs, lasts." -- Mary Pettibone Poole
--

Web Page: home.earthlink.net/~mtnviews

W. Watson wrote:
Thanks for your reply. I have a few questions. When you say "standing
waves", I take it that one can have more than one on the line?

Standing waves are created by two coherent traveling waves moving
in opposite directions in a transmission line. In a conventional
system of source, transmission line, and load, one of the traveling
waves moves from the source toward the load and is called the forward
wave. The other traveling wave moves from the load toward the source
as a reverse or reflected wave. The reflected wave is usually the
result of a load being mismatched to a transmission line. If no
mismatch exists, no standing waves are created and the system is
considered to be "flat", i.e. one forward traveling wave.

How does one know they want to improve their impedance match?

For a transmitted signal, we establish a Z0-match to our transmitter
often at the input of an antenna tuner. When reflected energy is
eliminated on the coax between the tuner and transmitter, we know
we have a Z0-match by the SWR meter reading of 1:1. We also use our
antenna tuners to tune for maximum received signal on our S-meters.
At the Z0-match point, maximum available energy is transferred.

If you know the input impedance to a receiver, you can match your
antenna system to it to achieve maximum available energy transfer
from the antenna.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Cecil Moore wrote:

W. Watson wrote:

Thanks for your reply. I have a few questions. When you say "standing
waves", I take it that one can have more than one on the line?


Standing waves are created by two coherent traveling waves moving
in opposite directions in a transmission line. In a conventional
....

How does one know they want to improve their impedance match?

....
antenna tuners to tune for maximum received signal on our S-meters.
At the Z0-match point, maximum available energy is transferred.

If you know the input impedance to a receiver, you can match your
antenna system to it to achieve maximum available energy transfer
from the antenna.
Thanks.
A standing wave is the sum of an incident added to the reflective wave.
Isn't it possible to send two incident waves down an xline with different
frequences, and produce two different standing waves by having some
multiplicative relationship between the two incident waves and the xline length?

Not a bad explanation from Wikipedia:

SWR has a number of implications that are directly applicable to radio use.

1. SWR is an indicator of reflected waves bouncing back and forth within
the transmission line, and as such, an increase in SWR corresponds to an
increase in power in the line beyond the actual transmitted power. This
increased power will increase RF losses, as increased voltage increases
dielectric losses, and increased current increases resistive losses.
2. Matched impedances give ideal power transfer; mismatched impedances
give high SWR and reduced power transfer.
3. Higher power in the transmission line also leaks back into the radio,
which causes it to heat up.
4. The higher voltages associated with a sufficiently high SWR could
damage the transmitter. Solid state radios which have a lower tolerance for
high voltages may automatically reduce output power to prevent damage. Tube
radios may arc. The high voltages may also cause transmission line
dielectric to break down and/or burn. Abnormally high voltages in the
antenna system increase the chance of accidental radiation burn if someone
touches the antenna during transmission.

W. Watson wrote:
A standing wave is the sum of an incident added to the reflective wave.
Isn't it possible to send two incident waves down an xline with
different frequences, and produce two different standing waves by having
some multiplicative relationship between the two incident waves and the
xline length?

Sure, it's possible but one wonders about the application.

2. Matched impedances give ideal power transfer; mismatched
impedances give high SWR and reduced power transfer.

A middle ground - Conjugately matched impedances give ideal power
transfer in the presence of high SWR. A feedline doesn't have to
be flat to be "matched". All that is required is that maximum
available power (actually energy) be transferred.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

To anybody who may be reading -

(1) There's far too much importance attached to standing waves on
transmission lines. But see (4).

(2) There are colossal standing waves on antennas which are seldom
taken any notice of.

(3) Anyway, of what use does anybody make of standing waves after
taking the trouble to measure them. And the measurements themselves
are the most inacurate in the field of radio engineering.

(4) And to cap it all, the common or garden SWR meter does NOT
measure standing waves on the feedline to the antenna where they might
conceivably be of interest. It's all a gigantic hoax!
----
Season's Greetings from Reg, G4FGQ.

..
"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
om...
W. Watson wrote:
A standing wave is the sum of an incident added to the reflective wave.
Isn't it possible to send two incident waves down an xline with different
frequences, and produce two different standing waves by having some
multiplicative relationship between the two incident waves and the xline
length?

Sure, it's possible but one wonders about the application.

Cecil:

Think about a 6 MHz wide analog TV channel. Those antennas aren't flat, and
there are 2 transmitters, visual and aural. Putting an analog TV station on
the air the first time, particularly low VHF, is a real interesting
exercise. Or at least it was back in the stone (vacuum tube) age, the last
time I did one.

73,
George
W5VPQ
My real address is my ham call atARRL.NET The ATTGlobal is a SPAM trap


snip

Crazy George wrote:
Those antennas aren't flat, and
there are 2 transmitters, visual and aural.

The audio is not mixed with the main carrier?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

On Sun, 25 Dec 2005 22:31:09 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote:

Crazy George wrote:
Those antennas aren't flat, and
there are 2 transmitters, visual and aural.

The audio is not mixed with the main carrier?
It can be either way.

If you choose to use separate transmitters the demands on antenna
bandwidth are greatly reduced.
John Ferrell W8CCW

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
om...
W. Watson wrote:
A standing wave is the sum of an incident added to the reflective wave.
Isn't it possible to send two incident waves down an xline with
different frequences, and produce two different standing waves by having
some multiplicative relationship between the two incident waves and the
xline length?

Sure, it's possible but one wonders about the application.


Some repeaters use one antenna for two repeaters on 144 and 440 mhz.
Comercial transmitters do this all the time. Usually the transmitters are
in the same band.

W. Watson wrote:
. . .
Not a bad explanation from Wikipedia:

SWR has a number of implications that are directly applicable to radio use.

1. SWR is an indicator of reflected waves bouncing back and forth
within the transmission line, and as such, an increase in SWR
corresponds to an increase in power in the line beyond the actual
transmitted power. This increased power will increase RF losses, as
increased voltage increases dielectric losses, and increased current
increases resistive losses.

I go along with that.

2. Matched impedances give ideal power transfer; mismatched
impedances give high SWR and reduced power transfer.

That's oversimplified and a misapplication of the rule of maximum power
transfer. Suppose I have a 50 ohm source connected to a 50 ohm load and
adjust the source so it puts 100 watts into the load. Then I put a half
wavelength of 300 ohm line between the source and the load. The
transmission line will have a 6:1 SWR. There will be a 6:1 impedance
mismatch at the transmission line-load junction. Yet
-- The load power will be 100 watts as before.
-- The power produced by the source will be 100 watts as before.
-- The system efficiency will be the same as it was before.
-- 100 watts will be transferred from the source to the line.
-- 100 watts will be transferred from the line to the load.

So in no way did the high SWR result in reduced power transfer.

Now change the load impedance to 300 ohms.

-- There is now a 6:1 mismatch between the source and the line.
-- The line SWR is now 1:1.
-- The load power will be reduced.

The mismatch between source and line didn't cause a high SWR on the
line. In fact, changing the line impedance degraded the match at the
same time it improved the SWR.

3. Higher power in the transmission line also leaks back into the
radio, which causes it to heat up.

That's demonstrably false. For some examples and explanations, see
http://www.eznec.com/misc/food_for_t...se%20Power.txt.
(You might have to splice this URL back together if your browser splits it.)

4. The higher voltages associated with a sufficiently high SWR could
damage the transmitter. Solid state radios which have a lower tolerance
for high voltages may automatically reduce output power to prevent
damage. Tube radios may arc. The high voltages may also cause
transmission line dielectric to break down and/or burn.

That's true. Some transmitters can be damaged from a number of causes
when the load impedance isn't approximately what the transmitter was
designed for. Only one of those possible causes is increased voltage.

Of course, a high SWR can also cause the voltage at the transmitter to
be lower than it otherwise would have been.

Abnormally high
voltages in the antenna system increase the chance of accidental
radiation burn if someone touches the antenna during transmission.

But the antenna doesn't have an SWR, the transmission line does. If you
do have an open wire transmission line, it's best not to touch the line
regardless of the SWR. But if you have a high line SWR, there's just a
good of a chance that the voltage at the point you touch is lower due to
the high SWR than it is than the voltage is higher.

I'll bet if you search the web you can find just about any kind of
possible misinformation about SWR, just as you can about any other topic.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL