Why use a balanced tuner when a less expensive, easier to operate,
unbalanced tuner, in conjunction with a simple choke-balun, will do
just as well?

Insert the 2-wire choke-balun between the unbalanced tuner and the
balanced transmission line.
----
Reg.

Reg Edwards wrote:

Why use a balanced tuner when a less expensive, easier to operate,
unbalanced tuner, in conjunction with a simple choke-balun, will do
just as well?

Insert the 2-wire choke-balun between the unbalanced tuner and the
balanced transmission line.
----
Reg.


Because a balun particularly lossy at high SWR -- with a balanced tuner
followed by a balun you present the balun with the correct impedance, so
it's at its best.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
Reg Edwards wrote:

Why use a balanced tuner when a less expensive, easier to operate,
unbalanced tuner, in conjunction with a simple choke-balun, will
do
just as well?

Insert the 2-wire choke-balun between the unbalanced tuner and the
balanced transmission line.
----
Reg.


Because a balun particularly lossy at high SWR -- with a balanced
tuner
followed by a balun you present the balun with the correct
impedance, so
it's at its best.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

========================================
Tim!

I don't know what design services you offer but you are WRONG.

You must have been reading the wrong comical magazines.

A choke balun is amongst the most power-efficient devices.

It consists only of a pair of wires wound around a ferrite ring. It is
just a very short transmission line of the same length as the wire and
has the same very low loss.

It has a phase shift of the same length of line. Which is immaterial
insofar as the tuner is concerned. It merely changes the tuner L and
C settings.
----
Reg.

So a simple "pi filter" withe a bulun will do the same?
I always thought that the wide impedancerange of open wire made a
currentbalun or voltagebalun unusable.
I was just gathering parts to build my own balanced tuner....
Greetings Johan PE1AEQ


"Reg Edwards" schreef in bericht
...
Why use a balanced tuner when a less expensive, easier to operate,
unbalanced tuner, in conjunction with a simple choke-balun, will do
just as well?

Insert the 2-wire choke-balun between the unbalanced tuner and the
balanced transmission line.
----
Reg.

I don't know what design services you offer but you are WRONG.

You must have been reading the wrong comical magazines.

A choke balun is amongst the most power-efficient devices.



I don't know where you get your balun information, but you really need
to do more homework, apparently. BALUNs can become quite lossy,
depending on the impedence characteristics of the antenna you are trying
to match at a particular frequency.

There are hundreds of sites where you can find this information....

http://www.cebik.com/a10/ant48.html is just one, for example.

Do some homework.



Ed K7AAT

Reg Edwards wrote:

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...

Reg Edwards wrote:


Why use a balanced tuner when a less expensive, easier to operate,
unbalanced tuner, in conjunction with a simple choke-balun, will

do

just as well?

Insert the 2-wire choke-balun between the unbalanced tuner and the
balanced transmission line.
----
Reg.



Because a balun particularly lossy at high SWR -- with a balanced

tuner

followed by a balun you present the balun with the correct

impedance, so

it's at its best.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com


========================================
Tim!

I don't know what design services you offer but you are WRONG.

You must have been reading the wrong comical magazines.

A choke balun is amongst the most power-efficient devices.

It consists only of a pair of wires wound around a ferrite ring. It is
just a very short transmission line of the same length as the wire and
has the same very low loss.

It has a phase shift of the same length of line. Which is immaterial
insofar as the tuner is concerned. It merely changes the tuner L and
C settings.
----
Reg.

Sorry. I thought you were asking for help. My mistake.

Odd that you should answer the question when you already know the
answer, though.

To answer you unasked question: No, I do not have any test results, so
you are correct that I am just repeating the absorbed wisdom of others.
I'll be sure to qualify any similar answers I give in the future.
Until I get an HF system up again I won't be doing any measurements, so
don't hold your breath.

To ask you the same question: would you please post _your_ test results?

Pontificating from first principals is what you do if you are engaged in
preliminary design or the unpaid answering of questions.

Sticking to your guns in such cases is tilting over to philosophy,
religion, incompetence or internet trolling.

But you are sure enough of yourself to use capital letters when telling
me I was mistaken, so you cannot possibly be incompetent or a spinner of
trolls.

So I am confident that you are working from real, measured data, not
just derived results based on calculations or reasoning from first
principals. At most you are once removed from some reliable individual
or group who has done the measurements. It is very ungenerous of you
not to share a properly detailed report on your experiments, or a
reference to the report of the folks who did do the work -- a link to a
page will do, or even a reference to a periodical or book should the
information not be available on the web.

I'm ready to change my thinking just as soon as I see something
credible, and quite interested in the results because I don't see the
point in building a balanced tuner if my existing unbalanced one will do.

Thanks.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

On Mon, 2 Jan 2006 14:56:49 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards"
wrote:

Why use a balanced tuner when a less expensive, easier to operate,
unbalanced tuner, in conjunction with a simple choke-balun, will do
just as well?

Insert the 2-wire choke-balun between the unbalanced tuner and the
balanced transmission line.
----
Reg.


My link coupled tuner (Johnson Matchbox) cost me less than 60 USD, I
can tuner faster than a T-type tuner, doesn't need nor use a balun.
(Read one less component and its associated loss). So why would I want
to replace it with something that works almost as good?

Danny,
K6MHE



email: k6mheatarrldotnet
http://www.k6mhe.com/

"johan aeq" wrote
So a simple "pi filter" withe a bulun will do the same?
I always thought that the wide impedancerange of open wire made a
currentbalun or voltagebalun unusable.
I was just gathering parts to build my own balanced tuner....
Greetings Johan PE1AEQ

==========================================
All kinds of peculiar things can happen with voltage baluns and
current baluns which have a definite impedance ratio.

But my comments apply to a CHOKE balun, the most simple form of balun.
It is a pair of wires wound together on a ferrite ring. It is just a
very short 2-wire transmission line. For longitudinal currents it is
an RF choke, the 2 wires being effectively connected in parallel.

The impedances between which it can work are indeterminate. There is
no impedance ratio.

When connected between a balanced line and an unbalanced tuner, the
tuner can be an ordinary simple L, Pi or T network.

If you happen to have a balanced tuner, lying around doing nothing,
then by all means use it without a balun. But if you don't have a
balanced tuner, as is very likely, there's no need to make one. Just
use a common or garden unbalanced tuner, which nearly everybody has
already got, with a CHOKE balun.

The hardest part of making a choke balun is obtaining the ferrite
ring. 50mm outside diameter, 30mm inside diameter, permeability
200-400, about 16 turns of twin, flexible, stranded, speaker cable,
will be OK for the HF bands. Or similar.

All the very best for 2006.
----
Reg, G4FGQ.

....[snip]....
The hardest part of making a choke balun is obtaining the ferrite ring....

Use a TV-set flyback transformer core; see:
"another balun design", by Fred Brown, W6HPH, in Ham Radio magazine
of May, 1982, pp. 54-57

"Three Baluns for a Buck" by Donald E. Lively, W6SJQ, from a magazine
which didn't print either its name or the date on the pages I saved!
but it basically says the same thing as the HR article.

A hint on p. 37 of the August, 1987, QST describes "The Baby-Bottle Balun",
an air-core balun based on DeMaw's article "Simple Coreless Baluns" (QST,
Oct. 1980, p. 47; which I apparently didn't appreciate enough to keep).
--
--Myron A. Calhoun.
Five boxes preserve our freedoms: soap, ballot, witness, jury, and cartridge
PhD EE (retired). "Barbershop" tenor. CDL(PTXS). W0PBV. (785) 539-4448
NRA Life Member and Certified Instructor (Home Firearm Safety, Rifle, Pistol)

Tim!

I was out of order confusing your design services with baluns. Please
accept my apologies. But I did make it clear that CHOKE baluns were
involved. You may see elsewhere what a choke balun actually is.

If you already have a balanced tuner then by all means use it. But if
you don't have one there's no need to make one or buy one.

It is more convenient to use an ordinary unbalanced tuner plus a very
simple to make choke balun which has no particular impedance matching
properties apart from being a very short length of transmission line
of predictable Zo and predictable phase shift which don't matter very
much.

It seems my rhetorical question has inadvertently stirred up quite a
discussion the newsgroup.

I wish you much success with Wescott Design Services in 2006.
----
Reg, just a radio amateur, G4FGQ.