Tom Donaly, KA6RUH wrote:
"There is nothing in the natural world that can double itself and go in
the opposite direction at the same time."

Watch water waves slam into a bulkhead and you can see the reflected
waves interfere with the incident waves as they travel in the opposite
directions.

Electrical waves, incident and reflected, pass through each other too.
In the antenna or transmission line, the charge is impelled by the
energy supplied by the generator to move back and forth on the surface
of the wire at the radio frequency rate.

The incident wave and the reflected wave on a transmission line travel
in opposite directions. At certain points along the line the voltages in
the waves will be in phase and will add, while in other points they will
be out of phase and subtract. The points along the line where the two
voltages are in phase are points of maximum voltage and minimum current
and are spaced one half wavelength apart. The points along the line
where the two voltages are 180-degrees out of phase are points of
minimum voltage and maximum current and are also one half wavelength
apart. The distance between alternate points is one-quarter wavelength.

The reflection of a radio wave is a natural occurrence. When the voltage
produced by the incident wave hits the open-circuit of a wire it doubles
itself and starts a wave propagating in the opposite direction while the
incident waves are yet arriving at the open-circuit.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

Tom Donaly wrote:
Richard Harrison wrote:

Tom, W8JI wrote:
"I take it you are saying you think current can flow two directions at
the same instant of time in a conductor through radiation and resistance
without a shunting impedance, conservation of charge isn`t important,
and Maxwell`s equarions are wrong."

That`s the wrong take.

Maxwell works for me even if there is no aether.

Anntennas work in free space without a ground but it is hard to
duplicate free space conditions at high and lower frequencies here on
earth.

Every standing-wave antenna has a reflection caused by an impedance
discontinuity at wire`s end. At this point, a reflection begins its
travel back toward the generator. By the time the reflection arrives at
the generator, every point on the wire has current flowing in both
directions simultaneously. No shunting capacitance to earth or anyplace
else is needed to conserve charge. The wire is self-sufficient.

Radiation resistance is a convenience defined as the resistance which if
placed in series with an antenna would consume the same power that the
antenna is radiating.

At every point along an antenna with a reflection, current is flowing in
two directions at the same time.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI


Completely wrong, as usual. There is nothing in the natural world
that can double itself and go two opposite directions at the same
time. In order to do so it would have to violate the principle of
the conservaton of charge. At any instant, the charge at a point
has to be going either one direction or another which you can
confirm using the wave equation which Cecil doesn't understand
any more than you do. Superposition is a fine principle, but
like any intellectual tool it has to be understood to be used
properly.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Tom

Have you ever sloshed water in a bowl? If you had you would have seen
wave forms going in both directions. First the initial wave crosses the
bowl then reflects off the side of the bowl and returns in the opposite
direction.
This is the same as an EMF wave in an antenna. No violation of any
principles of conservation, in fact it is demanded of the principle.

Dave WD9BDZ

Cecil Moore wrote:


Here's a more valid procedure for determining the
delay through a coil.

Cecil,

So you think adding turns to a coil is a nice linear process that allows
you to then subdivide the resonance effects according the number of
turns in each subsection?

That's a good one. I almost injured myself laughing when I read it.

73,
Gene
W4SZ

Tom Donaly wrote:
There is nothing in the natural world
that can double itself and go two opposite directions at the same
time.

Seems your ignorance also extends to entangled particles?

In order to do so it would have to violate the principle of
the conservaton of charge.

This is simply one more example of the seduction of other-
wise intelligent people by the lumped-circuit model's
unproven presuppositions.

You are confusing charge with EM wave energy. If two EM light
waves traveling in opposite directions can cause a standing
wave in empty space, then so can two RF waves traveling in
opposite directions in space or around a wire. There is no
requirement for current at all. Current is a left over
artifact from the DC model. In fact, it can be proven
that virtually all of the energy (power) exists solely in
the two EM waves surrounding the wire and virtually none in
the conductor. All that is required for standing waves is
E-fields and H-fields traveling in opposite directions WHETHER
A WIRE EXISTS OR NOT.

If everyone were using Maxwell's equations instead of flawed
simplified models, none of this confusion would exist. All
of the energy is in the waves and none in the current or
voltage. After all, E x H is the *total power* in a wave.
There is no extra energy left over to support voltage and
current.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

David G. Nagel wrote:

Tom

Have you ever sloshed water in a bowl? If you had you would have seen
wave forms going in both directions. First the initial wave crosses the
bowl then reflects off the side of the bowl and returns in the opposite
direction.
This is the same as an EMF wave in an antenna. No violation of any
principles of conservation, in fact it is demanded of the principle.

Dave WD9BDZ


Dave,

You have highlighted a misconception that is common and a great cause of
confusion in this forum.

Yes, the "waves" can do what you say. However, the "waves" are merely
mathematical descriptions of the underlying physical phenomena. There is
simply no such thing as a "wave" all by itself. Instead there are water
waves, electromagnetic field waves, guitar string waves, sound waves,
and so on.

Nature tends to be single valued, at least in the ordinary classical
world. At any specific point in time and space there is only one value
of current, one value of electric field, one value for the motion of a
particle (water molecule, guitar string molecule, etc.), one charge
density, and so on. These values can and do change with differences in
time and space. However, the physical entities do not have two values at
once in the same time and place.

73,
Gene
W4SZ

Cecil,

Are you practicing your stand-up comedy routine? You are in rare form today.

Why didn't you set us straight about 3000 messages ago? If only we knew
that RF current was a mere artifact we could have shortened this thread
to one message.

73,
Gene
W4SZ

Cecil Moore wrote:

You are confusing charge with EM wave energy. If two EM light
waves traveling in opposite directions can cause a standing
wave in empty space, then so can two RF waves traveling in
opposite directions in space or around a wire. There is no
requirement for current at all. Current is a left over
artifact from the DC model. In fact, it can be proven
that virtually all of the energy (power) exists solely in
the two EM waves surrounding the wire and virtually none in
the conductor. All that is required for standing waves is
E-fields and H-fields traveling in opposite directions WHETHER
A WIRE EXISTS OR NOT.

If everyone were using Maxwell's equations instead of flawed
simplified models, none of this confusion would exist. All
of the energy is in the waves and none in the current or
voltage. After all, E x H is the *total power* in a wave.
There is no extra energy left over to support voltage and
current.

K7ITM wrote:
Understanding the congrence among many methods/theories is a very nice
thing, for it gives one confidence that they are correct, and the
ability to apply the one that's most convenient to any particular
problem. I would not want to take away wave theory, or any other valid
theory, from you; I would only ask that you better understand that your
pet is not the ONLY valid explanation.

The point is that in any disagreement between the lumped-circuit
model and a properly applied distributed network model, the
lumped-circuit model loses *EVERY* time since the lumped-circuit
model is a *SUBSET* of the distributed network model.

If your current charge concepts disagree with Maxwell's equations,
Maxwell's equations win *EVERY* time. Maxwell's equations do not
require individual charge carriers. They work just fine considering
only fields in the aether.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

K7ITM wrote:
Could you please enlighten us, Cecil, exactly why you think that
anything in all of W8JI's full posting referenced by reference below
where he implicitly or explicitly says anything at all about a lumped
model, or about lumped behaviour? After a careful search, I'm unable
to find it. I only find a discussion of distributed behaviour in a
circuit which extends beyond near field.

W8JI is right 99% of the time. I agree with him on those
things as do you. Your above posting is no surprise.

Here's one of W8JI's statements. Please defend it.

W8JI said:
Radiation does not cause current taper. Dissipation does not either.

What is contained in the attenuation factor for the current
transmission line equation if not radiation and dissipation?
What else is there?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Gene Fuller wrote:
So you think adding turns to a coil is a nice linear process that allows
you to then subdivide the resonance effects according the number of
turns in each subsection?

That appears to me to be the most valid measurement that we
can make of the delay through a coil. If you have a better
way, please present it.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Gene, W4SZ wrote:
"However, the physical entities do not have two values at once in the
same time and place."

You can measure each of the two simultaneous constituents with the right
equipment. A Bird Thruline wattmeter uses a directional coupler to
separate forward direction power from reverse direction power. These are
obbtainable at the same time and place anywhere in a 50-ohm coax line.
Individual volts and amps in each direction are easily calcuable from
the powers indicated in each direction.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI