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Boatanchors in Spaaaaaace......
Trying to identify a vacuum tube based missle seeker head.
Can anyone ID this? The box said "NIKE AJAX." Thanks, Dave S. |
Wow! My uncle worked on the Nike program back in 1953 (I think). I
was 7 at the time. We drove from Syracuse to White Sands Proving Ground, NM, to see him. We even got to see the missiles being tested.... On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 06:17:35 -0500, David Stinson wrote: Trying to identify a vacuum tube based missle seeker head. Can anyone ID this? The box said "NIKE AJAX." Thanks, Dave S. Larry Extremely intelligent life must exist in the universe. You can tell because they never tried to contact us. |
"David Stinson" wrote in message ... Trying to identify a vacuum tube based missle seeker head. Can anyone ID this? The box said "NIKE AJAX." Not sure about that particular item, but there was a Nike missle base just a couple miles from where I grew up. That area has since become a municipal park but they still have one of the actual Nike missles on display in front of the public library. I could swing by and get a photo if you would like to see the missle that I presume that piece of gear was installed in. Regards .. Larry Fowkes |
Looks like a fine piece of equipment, but rumored to fail after the first
use. Phil |
John Byrns wrote: Brings back memories of the 1950s, when "NIKE" missile bases ringed many of our larger cities. I wonder when they were decommissioned, seems like they were gone by the mid 1960s at the latest? " Its predecessor, the smaller Nike Ajax, was in service from 1954 through about 1965. It had a range of 25 miles and a speed of mach 2.5." http://www.ed-thelen.org/ http://www.boeing.com/history/mdc/nike.htm http://alpha.fdu.edu/~bender/nikenws.html Jeff -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin "A life lived in fear is a life half lived." Tara Morice as Fran, from the movie "Strictly Ballroom" |
nah, the warheads could be reused ;)
PJ wrote: Looks like a fine piece of equipment, but rumored to fail after the first use. Phil -- If it's a "new economy," why do they want my obsolete old money? |
"David Stinson" wrote in message ... Trying to identify a vacuum tube based missle seeker head. Can anyone ID this? The box said "NIKE AJAX." "Nike Ajax" was one of the first anti-aircraft city defense systems ever. It was ably designed by Bell labs to act like a short-range detection, tracking, and interception system. But if you do the math of coastlines vs radar vs missle range vs costs, you quickly discover you'd need about 600 times the GNP of the USA to put up enough of these to intercept 75% of the bombers. Oh, and they knew that very soon the bombers would be obsoleted by ICBM's, which would completely obsolete the whole Nike shebang. Even in the free spending 1950's there was only enough spare $ to put up a miniscule shield. Many of the Nike sites were put up in full view of major public thoroughfares, to reassure the public that the US govt was on the job! When the Nike sites were tested against actual "attacking" bombers (ours), the results were less than stupendous. No problem, the results were classified. To further boondoggle things, the Feds didnt want to run the sites, so they somehow delegated the job to each state's National Guard. Mild contradictions with the US Constitution, quickly fixed by a flurry of individual "treaties" between the State Dept and the 50 states. Now you try scheduling the part-time NG troops to man these sites 24/7 with any kind of effectiveness. My neighbor was a programmer on Nike-Ajax. IHRC they had a custom-designed computer that tried to track targets in real-time. The computer had some parallel-processing capability designed in by the Lab wizards. But the programmers quickly found out that all that extra parallel hardware was almost impossible to harness. (Much like the discoveries of later generations!). So the computers couldnt keep up with a typical target mix, much less with jamming or bad weather. Count yourself lucky, you're one of the few people that have benefited from Nike (the system, not the shoe) ! |
"David Stinson" wrote in message ... Trying to identify a vacuum tube based missle seeker head. Can anyone ID this? The box said "NIKE AJAX." Thanks, Dave S. Here's the tech manual: CHAPTER 3. SIGNAL DATA CONVERTER CIRCUIT OPERATION Pulse stretcher 18 20 Cathode follower driver 19 21 Filter unit 20 21 AGC amplifiers 21 22 P- and Y-discriminator 22 23 Command burst circuit 23 25 Fail-safe burst circuit 24 27 CHAPTER 4. CONTROL SECTION OPERATION |
John Byrns wrote: In article , wrote: Trying to identify a vacuum tube based missle seeker head. Can anyone ID this? The box said "NIKE AJAX." I would love to hear more about it if anyone knows? With all those "submini" tubes, it looks a little like one of Robert's "Engineering what ifs" gone awry. Did the "NIKE AJAX" actually use a "seeker head", or was it steered to the target by control signals from the ground? I know there were several very different incarnations of the "NIKE" missile, but I have no idea what the operational differences were? Three - Ajax, Hercules and Zeus. All were ground directed (by RADAR) to target. The electronics on board received the radio control signals and used that to actuate the control surfaces as directed. The various versions were all similar - with improving speed, range, accuracy, etc. Brings back memories of the 1950s, when "NIKE" missile bases ringed many of our larger cities. I wonder when they were decommissioned, seems like they were gone by the mid 1960s at the latest? More like mid 70's. Here is a picture of one (Hercules version) from Lynwood, CA - Memorial Day 1963 (right in your back yard, Jeff!). A friend of mine (still living) was in the parade - as he was in the National Guard at the time - and his unit was one of the units in the parade that day. A few years later he took us to Camp Roberts - where we got to ride in jeeps, tanks, and all manner of neat stuff- neat guy! Link: http://www.mississippi.net/~comcents/nike.jpg best regards... -- randy guttery A Tender Tale - a page dedicated to those Ships and Crews so vital to the United States Silent Service: http://tendertale.com |
In article , "George R. Gonzalez"
wrote: "David Stinson" wrote in message ... Trying to identify a vacuum tube based missle seeker head. Can anyone ID this? The box said "NIKE AJAX." Thanks, Dave S. Here's the tech manual: CHAPTER 3. SIGNAL DATA CONVERTER CIRCUIT OPERATION Pulse stretcher 18 20 Cathode follower driver 19 21 Filter unit 20 21 AGC amplifiers 21 22 P- and Y-discriminator 22 23 Command burst circuit 23 25 Fail-safe burst circuit 24 27 CHAPTER 4. CONTROL SECTION OPERATION Doesn't look like much of a manual, looks more like the table of contents for one chapter. Regards, John Byrns Surf my web pages at, http://users.rcn.com/jbyrns/ |
"John Byrns" wrote in message ... In article , "George R. Gonzalez" Doesn't look like much of a manual, looks more like the table of contents for one chapter. Regards, John Byrns Surf my web pages at, http://users.rcn.com/jbyrns/ oops, there should have been links in there... Here's the link to the whole manual, scroll down a bit to get to your stuff... http://ed-thelen.org/tm9-5000-28.html Regards, George |
"George R. Gonzalez" wrote:
Here's the link to the whole manual, Thank you very much for your kindness! |
David Stinson wrote in message ...
Trying to identify a vacuum tube based missle seeker head. Can anyone ID this? The box said "NIKE AJAX." ================================================ Dave: The Nike Ajax was a "Command Guidance" anti-aircraft missle system. The computer (analog computer) was ground based and the computer was fed information from a Target Tracking Radar (TTR) and a Missle Tracking Radar (MTR). The computer digested this information and sent commands to the missle via the MTR beam. The TTR and MTR operated in the X-band (the 9 to 10 GHz range). The advantage of Command Guidance is that the computer could determine the optimum trajectory to fly missle to the target. What you have is the electronics that received the MTR signals, decoded the missle commands, and sent them to the control surfaces of the missle. I went through the Officers Basic course at Ft. Sill back in 1961. I was trained on the Nike Hercules System as the Ajax was being phased out at that time. We did spend some time studying the old Ajax system as there were still a few Ajax sites active until the late 1960s. I saw quite a few Ajax missles being fired at the White Sands missle range. Lt. Ed Engelken 5th Msl Bn, 517th Arty (My old Hercules Missle outfit) |
In article , wrote:
John Byrns wrote: In article , wrote: Trying to identify a vacuum tube based missle seeker head. Can anyone ID this? The box said "NIKE AJAX." I would love to hear more about it if anyone knows? With all those "submini" tubes, it looks a little like one of Robert's "Engineering what ifs" gone awry. Did the "NIKE AJAX" actually use a "seeker head", or was it steered to the target by control signals from the ground? I know there were several very different incarnations of the "NIKE" missile, but I have no idea what the operational differences were? Three - Ajax, Hercules and Zeus. All were ground directed (by RADAR) to target. The electronics on board received the radio control signals and used that to actuate the control surfaces as directed. The various versions were all similar - with improving speed, range, accuracy, etc. I thought they were directed from the ground. The "Technical Manual" at the link George posted looks interesting, although I have only just gotten started with reading it. It is definitely boatanchor technology. With all those "moving parts" in the ground based guidance system I wonder how they were able to get enough accuracy to shoot anything down? When I was growing up in the 1950's, some SAC F-102s were based at the local Air Force base, I think the F-102s were another 1950's system designed to shoot down Russian bombers. I have a book buried somewhere around here that I bought in the early 1970's, which claimed that the missiles used on the F-102 had nuclear warheads to make up for the lack of accuracy provided by the 1950's technology. Brings back memories of the 1950s, when "NIKE" missile bases ringed many of our larger cities. I wonder when they were decommissioned, seems like they were gone by the mid 1960s at the latest? More like mid 70's. Here is a picture of one (Hercules version) from Lynwood, CA - Memorial Day 1963 (right in your back yard, Jeff!). A friend of mine (still living) was in the parade - as he was in the National Guard at the time - and his unit was one of the units in the parade that day. A few years later he took us to Camp Roberts - where we got to ride in jeeps, tanks, and all manner of neat stuff- neat guy! I occasionally passed by a Nike site in the late 1950's, which seemed to have disappeared by the early 1960's. In 1969 I moved into an apartment that was a couple of miles down the road from a former Nike base, all that was left of the Nike installation at that time were the radar's, and the National Guard, which I think continues to use the site even today, although the radar's are long gone. Regards, John Byrns Surf my web pages at, http://users.rcn.com/jbyrns/ |
John Byrns wrote:
In article , wrote: John Byrns wrote: In article , wrote: Trying to identify a vacuum tube based missle seeker head. Can anyone ID this? The box said "NIKE AJAX." I would love to hear more about it if anyone knows? With all those "submini" tubes, it looks a little like one of Robert's "Engineering what ifs" gone awry. Did the "NIKE AJAX" actually use a "seeker head", or was it steered to the target by control signals from the ground? I know there were several very different incarnations of the "NIKE" missile, but I have no idea what the operational differences were? Three - Ajax, Hercules and Zeus. All were ground directed (by RADAR) to target. The electronics on board received the radio control signals and used that to actuate the control surfaces as directed. The various versions were all similar - with improving speed, range, accuracy, etc. I thought they were directed from the ground. The "Technical Manual" at the link George posted looks interesting, although I have only just gotten started with reading it. It is definitely boatanchor technology. With all those "moving parts" in the ground based guidance system I wonder how they were able to get enough accuracy to shoot anything down? When I was growing up in the 1950's, some SAC F-102s were based at the local Air Force base, I think the F-102s were another 1950's system designed to shoot down Russian bombers. I have a book buried somewhere around here that I bought in the early 1970's, which claimed that the missiles used on the F-102 had nuclear warheads to make up for the lack of accuracy provided by the 1950's technology. Brings back memories of the 1950s, when "NIKE" missile bases ringed many of our larger cities. I wonder when they were decommissioned, seems like they were gone by the mid 1960s at the latest? More like mid 70's. Here is a picture of one (Hercules version) from Lynwood, CA - Memorial Day 1963 (right in your back yard, Jeff!). A friend of mine (still living) was in the parade - as he was in the National Guard at the time - and his unit was one of the units in the parade that day. A few years later he took us to Camp Roberts - where we got to ride in jeeps, tanks, and all manner of neat stuff- neat guy! I occasionally passed by a Nike site in the late 1950's, which seemed to have disappeared by the early 1960's. In 1969 I moved into an apartment that was a couple of miles down the road from a former Nike base, all that was left of the Nike installation at that time were the radar's, and the National Guard, which I think continues to use the site even today, although the radar's are long gone. Regards, John Byrns Surf my web pages at, http://users.rcn.com/jbyrns/ IIRC, One former Nike site is the FAA facility in Van Nuys. Seems I was told this by a former crew member. Bill Higdon |
"David Stinson" wrote in message ... "George R. Gonzalez" wrote: Here's the link to the whole manual, Thank you very much for your kindness! Hey, I didnt do the hard part, scanning and OCR'ing the manual! I would love to see the actual schematics of this thingy..... |
"George R. Gonzalez" ) writes:
Even in the free spending 1950's there was only enough spare $ to put up a miniscule shield. Many of the Nike sites were put up in full view of major public thoroughfares, to reassure the public that the US govt was on the job! Yes, I remember seeing one site just off a main street in Detroit, MI. The site was surrounded by a high fence but citizens (and visitors from Canada, like me) could easily see the missiles sticking up above the fence. This was early '50s. Just wonder if the second part of the name (Ajax, Hercules, etc) refers to the booster rocket that the Nike was mounted on. I recall that some upper atmospheric research rockets were mounted on Ajax boosters. .... Martin VE3OAT |
Bill Higdon wrote: IIRC, One former Nike site is the FAA facility in Van Nuys. Seems I was told this by a former crew member. I think the California Air and Army National Guard units took over those sites (IIRC one was just south of the air port - and the other bit further south in the hills??? been a long time---). According to the Boeing site - some of the Nikes were in service into early 1974. I think most of the sites were indeed abandoned by the mid to late 60's - IIRC Whittier Narrows was abandoned by the very early 60's. There used to be some old runways there - and in the early 60's kids used to run go-carts and minibikes there on the weekends. We also suspected there was one up in the Puente Hills - just east and up the hill from what is now Rio Honda Community College (actually -just above the old Pellisser dairy farms)- but I've heard later that was just some sort of communication station. There was indeed another Nike site about 10-12 miles southeast in the Puente Hills - just sw of what's now Rowland Heights. Figures - been gone 33 years -- and this stuff comes back - yet I can't remember what I had for dinner last night... best regards... -- randy guttery A Tender Tale - a page dedicated to those Ships and Crews so vital to the United States Silent Service: http://tendertale.com |
"George R. Gonzalez" wrote in message news:D47_a.127329$Ho3.15956@sccrnsc03...
I would love to see the actual schematics of this thingy..... It might scare you. The only Nike tech manual I have is for the AN/MPM-48 test set. Five Hundred and fifty 11" by 17" pages of schematics, diagrams, and pictures. No theory, no parts lists. They were included in other volumes of the manual set. -- William Donzelli |
Well of course it's a guidance system, silly! They could use just a pocket
radio for a receiver. I wonder if the Nike Ajax used any gyros at all, if the radar guidance uplink was continuous from launch. I imagine The Military Masterminds would not have expected the 'Bears' to be accompanied by radar suppressing 'Thuds': "Fishboobs". Also, what kind of propellant/oxidant was used? Also, was the uplink data stream encrypted? What kind of warhead did the nike Ajax have? Inquiring minds want to know. David Stinson wrote in message ... Trying to identify a vacuum tube based missle seeker head. Can anyone ID this? The box said "NIKE AJAX." Thanks, Dave S. |
I wonder if the Nike Ajax used any gyros at all, if the radar guidance
uplink was continuous from launch. Radar guided from launch. I imagine The Military Masterminds would not have expected the 'Bears' to be accompanied by radar suppressing 'Thuds': "Fishboobs". The missle was headed away from the launch site and toward the target. The receiving "horn" was directional enough to maintain a good S/N ratio in the face of target aircraft jamming efforts. Also, what kind of propellant/oxidant was used? It was a two-stage missle with a solid fuel booster and a liquid fuel missle motor. One of the liquid components was "red fuming nitric acid" but I forgot the other component. It's been well over 40 years ago, so cut me some slack! Also, was the uplink data stream encrypted? No. What kind of warhead did the nike Ajax have? The Ajax had three warheads. A 12 lb. nose warhead, a 179 lb. center warhead, and a 122 lb. tail warhead. The warheads were TNT and covered with layers of steel blocks about 1/2-inch square. The idea was to produce a burst pattern of sufficient size to cover the target aircraft. Best Regards, Ed Engelken Canyon Lake, TX |
In (rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors), Ed Engelken wrote:
Also, what kind of propellant/oxidant was used? It was a two-stage missle with a solid fuel booster and a liquid fuel missle motor. One of the liquid components was "red fuming nitric acid" but I forgot the other component. It's been well over 40 years ago, so cut me some slack! If RFNA was one component, then the other probably was some form of hydrazine -- probably unsymmetrical dimethyil hydrazine, which is Nasty and Corrosive enough to make RFNA look positively friendly. -- How about "suspender snapping three martini lunching mahogany tabled conference room equipped with overhead projector dwelling golden parachute flying bill gates specifying buzzword spewing computerworld and datamation reading trend bandwagoneering meeting going morons". -- Tom O'Toole |
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